War: Can China take Russia with 200 million men?

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

The weather in Russia is too extreme for anyone to invade. If at any point you get bogged down in a Russian winter, even the oil in your tanks freeze.

That's bull. As someone already pointed out, the Mongols successfuly invaded Russia with complete ease.

Look at the deomgraphics of the world back then, the population back then was far more sparse than it is now. It was far easier for a group to exert its dominance over a wide area than now. Besides this was at a time when the popualtions of the areas the Mongols counted would be a few million perosns. Today it would be closer to a billion.

As for it messing up equipment, it was only because of lack of spare parts due to Germany being bombed, and simply not being designed for the Cold. Tanks can operate fine in that weather, especially modern ones.

If we're talking about 1941 Germany was barely being touched by any bombing. IF we are talking after then you'd be interested to find out that Germany's production of war material actually increased under allied bombing. This was mainly due to the genius of Speer's orginisational skills.

The Germans didn't have winter clothing with them when they invaded. Had they, there wouldn't have been such losses during the winter, and they would have continued where they left off. There wouldn't have been any Stalingrad.

They still would have been beaten back with or without winter clothing. Stalin shipped in 500 000 Siberians who not only had great winter equipment they were also used to the frozen conditions. Not to mention of course the superiority of the T-34 in Russian conditions.

Not to mention part of the reason Germany couldn't supply its forces was that it was under intensive bombing raids from other allies, and split on two different fronts.

How about lack of manppower as well, you can build as many weapons as you like but you need the soldiers to use them.

It still really came down to the Battle of Moscow, in which the Germans could have won.

Well, that is debatable at best. Could they have taken Moscow probably however there timing was interrupted with the invasion of Yugoslavia and some big operations in the early months of Barbarossa,
However the fall of Moscow wouldn't have led to the defeat of the USSR.

The same basically applies to Napoleon. He terribly underestimated the Russian winter, and wasn't prepared for the Russians burning everything in their retreats. Had he had modern means of transporting supplies, it wouldn't have been a problem.

Ahem so, he didn't this was almost 200 yaers ago. If anyone had modern eqyipment back then they would hvae taken over the world.

China? Russia? In a war with each other?

One is scared and the other one's glad of it.

Both of them together couldn't win a war with Peru!

What? You don't think so? China's scared and the Russians can't even feed themselves properly.

Screw them both! Why? Because they'll ask for our help and support and then hate us atthe same time! Like in the great word's of "B-RAD" of 'Malibu's Most Wanted', "DON'T BE HATIN'! "

I haven't got anything against the Chinese or Russian who seek freedom.

JUST THE COMMIE'S!

P.S. : I don't hate anyone. It's just I don't take no CCC-rr-aaaaaa-pp!

[edit on 24/3/05 by Intelearthling]

Originally posted by COWlan
Why would China attack Russia?

Speaks for itself really...

Originally posted by ghostsoldier

Originally posted by COWlan
Why would China attack Russia?

Speaks for itself really...

Hmmm, why ? That's simple enough Natural Resources. There will come a time in the not too distant future where China will start to look North. Siberia holds vast untapped deposits of oil and strategic minerals.

China does not have expansionist ideals like some other countries out their... I dont think it would happen, not to mention that China is one of the biggest investors in alternate energy sources...

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
China does not have expansionist ideals like some other countries out their... I dont think it would happen, not to mention that China is one of the biggest investors in alternate energy sources...

Well that depends who you listen too in the Chinese governement. The fact remains though that China's growing economy is demanding more and more resources. Resources which the Chinese do not possess in their own country. They already import something around the order of 8 million barrels of oil a day.
Even discounting oil, Siberis's natural resources are massive, capable of supplying the Chinese economy for centuries. Factor in Siberia's tiny population ( about 7 500 000 ) - then Siberia becomes a very enticing addition

Why wouldn't China just help build the oil tapping facilities and TRADE with Siberia... Something the US doesn't understand obviously... If China is importing most of its Oil, and its ecomony is still growing, why would it stop? I dont think China would go to war for resources... Not until their economy crashes or something else drastic...

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Why wouldn't China just help build the oil tapping facilities and TRADE with Siberia... Something the US doesn't understand obviously... If China is importing most of its Oil, and its ecomony is still growing, why would it stop? I dont think China would go to war for resources... Not until their economy crashes or something else drastic...

China's oil supplies are too vulnerable, it has to travel half way around the world. Any potential future agressor could turn off the taps quite easily. China has bugger all blue water capability.
Quite simply China wants control of resources and not have to rely on a foreign power, especially if it wants to achieve it's superpower status.
Some nationalistic Chinese official have stated that Siberia is a part of China anyway.

Originally posted by rogue1
China's oil supplies are too vulnerable, it has to travel half way around the world. Any potential future agressor could turn off the taps quite easily. China has bugger all blue water capability.
Quite simply China wants control of resources and not have to rely on a foreign power, especially if it wants to achieve it's superpower status.
Some nationalistic Chinese official have stated that Siberia is a part of China anyway.

China doesn't necessarily need control of resources to become a Super Power. Take Japan for instance.

China will not look to make every peasant a savvy computer user, that is unsustainable, at the same time, China is actively exploring renewable energy and does not have any aversions to it.

As for instability, China will go through it. Governments can change, regimes can change but money's still good. After all, Chavez still sells oil to the states, China's oil supply is pretty safe no matter which foreign leader comes to power.

If you want to look for a future conflict over resources, look at the Diaoyu (or Senkaku) islands. That's where a limited conflict is most likely to occur. Currently, the Japanese navy is still superior to China's but China is rolling out new versions missile frigates and DDG's every couple of years.

Eventually, one will be mass-produced.

Originally posted by Intelearthling

Both of them together couldn't win a war with Peru!

What the... ****???

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by Intelearthling

Both of them together couldn't win a war with Peru!

What the... ****???

I second that.

China has hell lot of people. I see no reason why China must attack Russia. Isn't it better if China ally with Russia? But if China attack Russia (Perhaps for fun), nuclear weapons WILL be use. U.S will gain from benefit, after two superpower rivals dying in a war. U.S attack both of them and gain everything.

Thank you Intrepid, Siberian Tiger, Daedalus3, Adams, and all others that said in favor of Russia. Thanks alot

Russia would crumble anyone that tried to mess with them, including China. Russia HAS invaded countries unsuccessfully, but when it comes to defending their homeland, no one does it better. So what if their economy is a bit down? Russia still has a great military! Bravo!!!! Bravo!!!!!!!!

Hurray for Russia.

I will be in Russian army in 1 year and if China attacks, it will only get to Russia over my dead body!!!!

Hurray for Russia!!! Hurray!!!

PS: Why would China even want to attack an important ally and weapons provider????

Russian Soldier is absolutely right,

An ex-superpower with enough Nukes to destroy the world twice over should not be messed with, and has no reason to be messed with.

Does get you thinking though - A war between Russia and China would be devastating to both countries. Russia could possibly counter attack using tactical nukes and have the whole thing backfire on Russia.

Also, for the record, the Chinese army is NOT 200 million men. That is the number of Chinese males aged 18-49 who are eligible for conscription. Conscripts are ineffective at Offence but can be a useful tool for Russian defence. The Chinese regular army is 2.3 million men - smaller than India and only slightly larger than the US army.

The US would most likely sit back and watch a Chinese/Russian war but if they had to help I'd bet they'd be helping Russia.

Lesson learned - Don't mess with Russia. There is a lot of comradery in Russia and I am pretty sure they could defend against China who would be using Russian made armour and weapons.

China attacking Taiwan is probably the more likley scenario here.

Originally posted by Russian soldier

Russia HAS invaded countries unsuccessfully, but when it comes to defending their homeland, no one does it better.

That was unsuccessful ONLY because of american support for the mujahiddeen through Pakistan. Actually the thing the turned this war on its head was the tinger missile. And maybe 150mm mortars.
Maybe you can return the favour in Iran..

You are absolutely correct. Thanks, Daedalus3.

Is it true that there is quite a large Chinese immigration to Siberia?

I think I read it on a thread here at ATS.

I don't know, but check this out:
Many Russian natives have the chinese eyes(They were the first people in Russia, before the Slavs arrived. Alaskan eskimos are an example. Most of them live in Siberia.

I see you guys are thinking a lot about technical superiority economy ect.....those who think thak China can invade Russia just answer me a simple question::::

If China is in war with Russia who us going to Supply China the Necessary FUEL (Petrolium gas etc ) required for the war ?

china is almost totally dependent on Russia as far as Fuel and advanced Technology is concerned .......and Russians are not fools that they will sell their best Technology to someone who is a potencial threat like China --the best Tech that china uses today is atleast 15 years backdaed Soviet Technology......and Russian are well aware about the loopholes of their own technology supplied to china ...so the Russians can capitalise on that .

RUSSIA HAS NEVER BEEN SUCCESFULLY INVADED.....Both Nepolion and Hitler were very powerful when they attacked Russia...both of them underestimated Russia...and in then long run Mother Russia Ruined them .....
...if China repeats the same mistake then history will repeat itself

Originally posted by prelude
If China is in war with Russia who us going to Supply China the Necessary FUEL (Petrolium gas etc ) required for the war ?

Iran, sudan, indonesia, australia, saudi arabia, kuwait, venezuela, Kazakhstan. The list actually goes on and on and on.

Chinas own oil production per day 3.504 million bbl/day (2004)

Oil - consumption: 6.391 million bbl/day (2004)

Oil - imports: 3.226 million bbl/day (2004)

In the event of war they will have stopped production of consumer goods and would have shifted those oil supplies (which make up the vast majority of consumtion) to war industries. That where china will get its oil from

china is almost totally dependent on Russia as far as Fuel

Well very unlikey, Yuko was the only oil company which dealed with china until they went bankrupt in 04. The largest amount of oil per day was only 200,000 barrels per day (as claimed by the article, even though other sources put the figure at less than 100,000)

Yukos has signed contracts with China National Petroleum Corp. (CNPC) and refiner Sinopec to deliver at least 5.5 million tons of oil this year, or an average of 110,000 barrels per day. But it’s actually been shipping as much as 200,000 barrels per day.

Russian Oil Cuts Threaten China's Energy Security

Notice the title of the article.

Now look at chinas exports of oil for the same period
Oil - exports: 340,300 bbl/day (2004)

That is atleast 140,000 more barrels per day if we minus chinas "TOTAL DEPENDENCE" from russian oil to chinas own exports we get the feeling that russia is only a small suppiler.

or 2006 figures

Alekperov said Lukoil seeks to raise crude production in Kazakhstan by 40% in four years. "The total volume of crude oil production in Kazakhstan is expected to reach six million tons (120,500 bbl/d) in 2006, and the company plans to reach 10 million tons (200,100 bbl/d) by 2010."

RUSSIAN OIL TO FLOW TO CHINA EVEN BEFORE PIPELINE COMPLETED

and advanced Technology is concerned

Russia has a advanced technology base?.

the best Tech that china uses today is atleast 15 years backdaed Soviet Technology.

You mean the 636M, Su-30MKK, Su-27SMK, 956EM with the 3M80MBE sunburn and Kashtan air defence system.

But lets factor in training and condition of the chinese armed forces compared to the mightly russian frederation. Russian pilots get 20hours of training a year whilst J-8 pilots in china get 180 hours.

I wonder if the russian airforce is cutting back funds for the armaments like the AAM or ground attack missiles to much those rusty buckets even have some attacking capability

Russian are well aware about the loopholes of their own technology supplied to china

Loop holes..........very wishful thinking

RUSSIA HAS NEVER BEEN SUCCESFULLY INVADED

Mongolia, Germans WW1, and a host of other countries before russia was even russia