The Facts concerning Biden and Ukraine.

The claim can be summed up as Joe Biden abused his power to withhold aid from Ukraine in order to stop the prosecution of his son’s company Burisma. So lets evaluate those claims.

To begin with here are the players and the role they play within this possible scandal.

• Joe Biden – Former Vice President and current presidential candidate
  
• Mykolo Zlochevsky – Ukranian Oligarch and owner of Burisma Holdings
  
• Hunter Biden – Joe Biden’s son, who served on the board of Burisma Holdings
  
• Viktor Shokin – Prosecutor General of Ukraine, resigned March 2016
  
  So far, the only piece of evidence supporting the existence of a scandal that has been put forward is a speech by Joe Biden in 2018. Biden was speaking at a Council on Foreign Relations event and said:
  
  

  
  And that is I’m desperately concerned about the backsliding on the part of Kiev in terms of corruption. They made—I mean, I’ll give you one concrete example. I was—not I, but it just happened to be that was the assignment I got. I got all the good ones. And so I got Ukraine. And I remember going over, convincing our team, our leaders to—convincing that we should be providing for loan guarantees. And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.
  
  So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him.
  
  (Laughter.)
  
  I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.
  
  Well, there’s still—so they made some genuine substantial changes institutionally and with people. But one of the three institutions, there’s now some backsliding.

  
  
  Link
  
  For the scandal to be true, a few things must be true. One of those is Hunter Biden’s company Burisma must have been under investigation at the time Joe Biden made these demands. So is that true? Well, yes and no. The company was not under official investigation but the prosecutor general Viktor Shokin had announced in the past that he planned to investigate Burisma. So in short there was no active investigation at the time Biden threatened to withhold the money but Shokin had stated he intended to investigate Burisma.
  
  Link
  
  Next question, Did the subject matter of the proposed investigation have anything to do with the conduct of Hunter Biden? Well according to the Ukrainians, the answer is no. The corruption investigation was to be of corrupt behavior by Mykolo Zlochevsky and Burisma between 2010 and 2012.
  
  

  
  The National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU) said an investigation was ongoing into permits granted by officials at the Ministry of Ecology for the use of natural resources to a string of companies managed by Burisma.
  But it said the period under investigation was 2010-2012, and noted that this was before the company hired Hunter Biden.

  
  
  link
  
  Next question, was there any legitimate reason for Biden to push for Shokin’s removal? Was Shokin fighting against corruption and Biden attempted to stop him? The answer to this question is fairly clear, Shokin was not doing his job and appeared to be in the pocket of corrupt organizations.
  
  The evidence
  
  In 2015, Viktor Shokin survived an attempted assassination attempt by a sniper.
  
  

  
  They say a sniper fired three shots at the office of Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin late on Monday in Kiev, but bulletproof glass saved his life.
  
  No-one was injured. No group has so far claimed responsibility for the attack.
  
  Mr Shokin has been criticised for what his opponents say is his inability to bring any corruption cases to court.
  
  He has also been accused of sabotaging the anti-corruption drive officially declared by Ukraine, as it seeks to forge closer ties with the EU following mass protests that toppled President Viktor Yanukovych in 2014.

  
  
  This article is from 2015 and points out that even at that time Shokin was receiving criticism for his inability to bring any corruption cases. In short, he was NOT doing his job to root out corruption.
  
  Link

In March of 2016, there were protests in Ukraine calling for Shokin to resign. The reason for the protests was because Shokin would NOT bring corruption cases forward.

Scores of protesters have rallied in the Ukrainian capital, demanding the resignation of the country’s top prosecutor, who has been repeatedly criticized as an impediment to badly needed anticorruption reforms.

At least 200 people gathered outside the administrative offices of President Petro Poroshenko calling on him to fire Prosecutor-General Viktor Shokin.

Link

Next question, did Biden operate as a lone wolf in pressuring for the firing of Shokin. According to the evidence Biden was only the mouth piece for the USA, the IMF (International Monetary Fund), and other western nations.

This article is from 2016:

The United States and other Western nations had for months called for the ousting of Mr. Shokin, who was widely criticized for turning a blind eye to corrupt practices and for defending the interests of a venal and entrenched elite. He was one of several political figures in Kiev whom reformers and Western diplomats saw as a worrying indicator of a return to past corrupt practices, two years after a revolution that was supposed to put a stop to self-dealing by those in power.
As the problems festered, Kiev drew increasingly sharp criticism from Western diplomats and leaders. In a visit in December, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. said corruption was eating Ukraine “like a cancer.” Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, which props up Ukraine financially, said last month that progress was so slow in fighting corruption that “it’s hard to see how the I.M.F.-supported program can continue.”

Link

Additionally, Republicans supported the position taken by Biden within Ukraine. This letter recently emerged showing bi-partisan support for Biden’s position on Ukrainian corruption:

Link

Last question, was it illegal for Hunter Biden to be on the Burisma board? No, not illegal. This seems to be the benefit children of high ranking politicians enjoy. It has happened for years in every presidential administration as far back as I can remember. For example, Ivanka and Don Jr. have also received valuable business deals from foreign governments that could be argued came from the fact their father is president.

To be clear, I don’t approve of children of politicians receiving benefits simply because their parents are public officials, but it is not against any laws.

To sum up or TL/DR:

• Burisma was NOT under investigation at the time of Biden’s actions however, Shokin had suggested he was going to investigate Burisma but never did.
  
• The investigation in Burisma would not have involved any actions by Hunter Biden, it would have been for the time period 2010-2012 before Hunter joined the board.
  
• Shokin was widely thought to be corrupt within Ukraine and without.
  
• There were protests and at least one assassination attempt against Shokin due to him NOT dealing with rampant corruption within the country
  
• Multiple countries, the IMF, and even Republicans supported the firing of Shokin in 2016
  
• Hunter being on the board of Burisma is not illegal
  

a reply to: GorgoniteSooooo you have no problem if Don Jr got a big contract with China worth billions you'd say it not unlawful?

Biden and Hunter have already been convicted. Poll numbers and donations have fallen and will continue to drop. Several candidates hauled in more money this quarter. That won't change. There won't be jail but there will be a sentence which is ain't going to be President.

I actually want Trump impeached because if that happens Biden and Hunter will be called in to testify along with Ukraine and Chinese officials. It will be a long, long process going on for close to a year if not longer. Everyone will have mud in their face when it's over then the people can decide for themselves which muddy faces they like best.

a reply to: FlyinHeadlock

And the Democrat candidates for President say they would NOT do what Joe/Hunter Biden did.

a reply to: Gorgonite

That's right,
I have seen the history, much of it written about by Jim risen...in 2016

Hunter Joined Burisma about two weeks after his business partner, Devon Archer joined.
Hunter had also done some work for Burisma in the area of foreign relations legalities, in the wake of Ukraine's effort in trade with elsewhere in Europe.

I did post on it, but there was a poor reception from those who wished to push the made-up story, while it is pretty well guaranteed that the same entities were well aware of how false the made-up story was.

a reply to: Gorgonite

RE: "Joe Biden abused his power"

Is an opinion not a fact.

a reply to: Gorgonite

I've just finished watching a video that explains the biden/hunter/Ukraine thing, all the whys and wherefores, and what exactly is/has been going on.

The video is a couple hours long but is well worth the time, Glen Beck shines the Light and reveals what the MSM is hiding .. .

There is a pattern of unethical behavior on the part of Mr. Biden. While there maybe no illegal behavior found, none can be uncovered if no investigation is opened. Mr. Biden has been a federal office holder since 1973, influential in many different areas of concern, responsibility, and control. Everything from finances to the security of our country and ultimately the affairs of foreign nations both allied and adversary.

His young son Hunter, upon graduation from law school, immediately begins to work for a K street lobbying firm who contributed heavily to many of Joe Bidens campaigns all the while lobbying the Senator for clients as well as on their own behalf. Later in the young lawyers career he is appointed to the board of directors of Amtrak, a quasi private corporation heavily subsidized by the federal government, by President Bush.

Amtrak is forbidden by law to lobby Congress for funding, but the young Biden managed to help secure more than a billion in subsidies. Appearing before the committee to confirm his appointment, his strongest qualifications were listed as a "frequent commuter who has logged thousands of miles". By the time of his Amtrak appointment he was already listed as a top money getter for one of the largest firms in DC.

All while his Father was on the same committees which often approved appropriations for the various entities that the young Biden represented thru the firm. Not once to my knowledge did the Senior Biden recuse himself from ever making decisions which could have benefited one of his son's clients.

To my knowledge the young Biden has never appeared before a Judge on behalf of any clients actually practicing law, instead opted to remain in the practice of firms responsible for lobbying Congressional members for appropriations and legal regulations to benefit the clients the firms represented. Not even appearing before a Judge for his own illegal substance abuse issues.

The young Bidens most recent personal problem, was when he returned a rental car. The rental company discovered many personal items left in the vehicle, which included a baggie with a white substance determined to be coc aine, a pipe with residue of coc aine, identification and credit cards belonging to Hunter, and a badge belonging to the United States Attorney Generals office. The subsequent investigation was called off after officials with the FBI made contact and determined he was "okay" and his personal items returned. Local officials dropped their investigation because it was determined to only be a misdemeanor offense with the court likely dismissing charges.

The Ukrainian incident has been widely discussed if not investigated so no reason to rehash it here. The young Biden continues to work for one of the largest lobbying firms in DC today. While Amtrak, the corporation itself is forbidden to lobby for Congressional funds, the quasi private firm is managed as a for profit company. The young Biden is currently an employee of the National Rail Road Passenger Corporation.

There is only one passenger rail road of significance in the US and is Amtrak. The NRRPC can lobby Congress for appropriations and is instrumental in acquiring large subsidies annually. Amtrak at one point was a traded stock on public exchanges, currently the government is the largest share holder, Amtrak has perennially attempted to buy back stock issued to the public but thus far refused by those share holders, ironically made up of other national freight rail road companies. The possibilities of criminal behavior abound under this arrangement.

While no illegal activities have been spot lighted, there have been no formal investigations either. At the least it is unsavory and unethical behavior of not only Mr. Biden but must include his son and other members of our government who have never raised objections until recently. They will find no wrongdoing if they do not investigate and this arrangement deserves an investigation to if nothing else resolve Mr. Biden, and you can bet it would do just that, since unsavory and unethical behavior is a normal part of our government for many decades

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: GorgoniteSooooo you have no problem if Don Jr got a big contract with China worth billions you'd say it not unlawful?

Apparently, you didn't read my entire post.

I made it clear that I do NOT agree with the children of high ranking politicians getting business deals because of their parents. However, there are no laws against it and it has been going on as far back as Kennedy.

However, the Trump children have already cashed in on their fathers presidency.

Donald Jr. and Eric run the Trump Organization, which their father still owns. They have promised to seek no new foreign deals while he is president, but they are still building real estate projects that were announced before his inauguration, and they say they will resume making deals after he leaves office.

Those self-imposed rules come with loopholes: Donald Jr. has met with wealthy prospective buyers in Indonesia, India and other countries since Trump took office.

Ivanka Trump, officially an advisor to the president, operated her fashion company for a year and a half after entering the White House. She closed it in 2018, saying it had become a distraction.

Meanwhile, she collected dozens of trademark grants in China under applications she filed before her father’s inauguration. In 2017, she received three trademarks on the same day she and her father dined with Chinese President Xi Jinping at Mar-a-Lago.

Anything illegal there? Not at all. But would she have been able to chat up the leader of the world’s second-largest economy if her father wasn’t president? Not a chance.

Link

a reply to: DJMSN

You cannot just investigate someone due to a conspiracy theory. There must be evidence of wrongdoing. Otherwise, it would be easy for any politician in office to call for investigations of their political opponents on trumped-up charges.

There is no evidence of wrongdoing against Hunter or Joe. Investigating just because someone on the internet says a speech sounds funky is not how democracy works.

If this is truly how you want a country run, move to Russia.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Gorgonite

RE: "Joe Biden abused his power"

Is an opinion not a fact.

Couldn't agree more.

a reply to: Gorgonite

The entire Russian collusion investigation, you remember...the one that involved a Special Counsel was entirely predicated on rumor, innuendo and fabrications by foriegn spies and ironically included bought and paid for information from former Russian spies. It was and is a farce from the beginning.

Investigations occur everyday because of speculation. Drug investigations begin because someone calls and reports drug activity. The resulting investigation by LEO determine by surveillance and informants of any charges to be filed. The facts so far involving Biden are certainly enough to start an inquiry.

Mr. Biden himself should be screaming for an investigation to clear himself but instead he threatens the press to stop any coverage, pens letters to news organizations to tell them to stop hosting certain individuals, and completely loses control of himself if a member of the press actually attempts to question him in regards to it.

Why ? It makes it all the more unsavory and unethical. He should welcome any investigations in order to clear his name if nothing else. Trump recognized this and gave Team Muller millions of documents as well as access to members of his administration to include answering questions himself. This resulted in no charges of wrong doing on behalf of his administration other than some criminal behavior of others which occurred long before their involvement with Trump. And actually brings up more questions regarding Biden since Manafort was also elbow deep in affairs involving Ukraine.

Why does Biden not welcome any investigations? Not neccesarily because criminal behavior would be uncovered, but he is in the midst of a campaign. Any investigations would derail it for sure, Democrats know this and is why they pushed the Russian investigation to derail Trump, however their timing sucked. Unethical and unsavory behavior is just as bad as criminal behavior when in goverment, and yes he needs to be investigated

a reply to: DJMSN

Unfortunately, you are wrong.

Trump fired Comey and then said in an interview

And, in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said: ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story, it’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should’ve won,

Link
This led to the Mueller investigation. It appeared to be a president firing an FBI director who was just doing his job. That is a very serious action and required serious investigation. The USA is not Russia, Iran, or China. We do not allow our officials to be above the law. We do not allow our officials to mix official actions with politics. Trump gave every appearance at the time that he was attempting to be above the law.

Try again, or move to Russia where to government is more to your tastes.

edit on 7-10-2019 by Gorgonite because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: Gorgonite

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: GorgoniteSooooo you have no problem if Don Jr got a big contract with China worth billions you'd say it not unlawful?

Apparently, you didn't read my entire post.

I made it clear that I do NOT agree with the children of high ranking politicians getting business deals because of their parents. However, there are no laws against it and it has been going on as far back as Kennedy.

However, the Trump children have already cashed in on their fathers presidency.

Donald Jr. and Eric run the Trump Organization, which their father still owns. They have promised to seek no new foreign deals while he is president, but they are still building real estate projects that were announced before his inauguration, and they say they will resume making deals after he leaves office.

Those self-imposed rules come with loopholes: Donald Jr. has met with wealthy prospective buyers in Indonesia, India and other countries since Trump took office.

Ivanka Trump, officially an advisor to the president, operated her fashion company for a year and a half after entering the White House. She closed it in 2018, saying it had become a distraction.

Meanwhile, she collected dozens of trademark grants in China under applications she filed before her father’s inauguration. In 2017, she received three trademarks on the same day she and her father dined with Chinese President Xi Jinping at Mar-a-Lago.

Anything illegal there? Not at all. But would she have been able to chat up the leader of the world’s second-largest economy if her father wasn’t president? Not a chance.

Link

< br />
That is a family business which he turned over to them legally. Are you saying that a President's children may not conduct any business because it could be perceived as political conflicts. I know Ivanka, her merchandise sales went through the roof after he won. So did an uptick in traffic at Trump hotels. I'm trying to understand because that's a far cry from going on a government plane with Daddy the VP and getting investments from that country Daddy is dealing with on that specific trip. What was he doing on Air Force II anyway.

He should have paid for his own trip if it was personal business. Hunter got a free ride on my dime to hash out personal business deals. I have a severe problem with that arrangement. At a minimum it's an ethics violation. He wasn't working for Daddy. He was working on his own stuff.

originally posted by: FlyinHeadlock

originally posted by: Gorgonite

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: GorgoniteSooooo you have no problem if Don Jr got a big contract with China worth billions you'd say it not unlawful?

Apparently, you didn't read my entire post.

I made it clear that I do NOT agree with the children of high ranking politicians getting business deals because of their parents. However, there are no laws against it and it has been going on as far back as Kennedy.

However, the Trump children have already cashed in on their fathers presidency.

Donald Jr. and Eric run the Trump Organization, which their father still owns. They have promised to seek no new foreign deals while he is president, but they are still building real estate projects that were announced before his inauguration, and they say they will resume making deals after he leaves office.

Those self-imposed rules come with loopholes: Donald Jr. has met with wealthy prospective buyers in Indonesia, India and other countries since Trump took office.

Ivanka Trump, officially an advisor to the president, operated her fashion company for a year and a half after entering the White House. She closed it in 2018, saying it had become a distraction.

Meanwhile, she collected dozens of trademark grants in China under applications she filed before her father’s inauguration. In 2017, she received three trademarks on the same day she and her father dined with Chinese President Xi Jinping at Mar-a-Lago.

Anything illegal there? Not at all. But would she have been able to chat up the leader of the world’s second-largest economy if her father wasn’t president? Not a chance.

Link

< br />
That is a family business which he turned over to them legally. Are you saying that a President's children may not conduct any business because it could be perceived as political conflicts. I know Ivanka, her merchandise sales went through the roof after he won. So did an uptick in traffic at Trump hotels. I'm trying to understand because that's a far cry from going on a government plane with Daddy the VP and getting investments from that country Daddy is dealing with on that specific trip. What was he doing on Air Force II anyway.

He should have paid for his own trip if it was personal business. Hunter got a free ride on my dime to hash out personal business deals. I have a severe problem with that arrangement. At a minimum it's an ethics violation. He wasn't working for Daddy. He was working on his own stuff.

You don't pay attention do you?

I have said, clearly, and more than once there is no law preventing a politicians' kids from profiting off their parents office. I don't approve, but there is no law against it.

With that said, you apparently have a problem with Hunter Biden hitching a ride on Air Force II. Then you should have an equally negative reaction to all the times the Trump kids have hitched rides on Air Force I for business and pleasure.

Right?

a reply to: JON666

As long as he wasn't doing anything illegal.

Why not? He's free to pursue employment anywhere.

originally posted by: DJMSN
a reply to: Gorgonite

The facts so far involving Biden are certainly enough to start an inquiry.

That's a non-statement,

The matter was dealt with and written up right at the time, it's only the Johnny-cum-latelys of now who concocted an alternative version.

Despite your long winded take on what happened, I find it less than sincere...Mueller did not exonerate Trump, for instance?
Manafort was Trump's man....I can speculate on that no problem like you have on Biden...could be wrong, could be fecking right, maybe big time.
Biden, though he did brag later about it, was forthright with Ukraine about the handing over of monies, Trump, in this latest Ukraine Faux Pas, asked for a favour..though.

I will add though,
I do have some misgivings, not just about your posts, but also in the OP, where I feel, why this OP..now, when Trump is suddenly busy elsewhere now pulling out the troops in Syria..Oh sure, that's controversial, but perhaps in many peoples eyes, not so much...that, I can understand, while at the same time, a lot of people in another place will suffer greatly because of it.
If I thought Trump was using Syria as a diversion for his current woes...well deserved BTW, I would love to, "Smack him in the face" ...to coin a Trump quote!

I like the good old days when these were floating around.

Creepy Joe: twitter.com...


Now, it's all serious stuff that's hard to Meme.

a reply to: carewemust

Troll duty?