Something is Just Not Right Here

a reply to: TheRedneck

You know, just because the Obama administration and other pro-Obama people claimed that prosecutor was corrupt it doesn't really mean it is true. More so when Joe Biden had a conflict of interest because that prosecutor was about to investigate Hunter Biden and his link to the corrupt Burisma Holdings. I am certain that if it was "investigated" you would find those claiming that the prosecutor was corrupt had deals with the corrupt Burisma holdings that they didn't want to come to light.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

That's pretty much what I am getting at. Initially, I fell for the corrupt prosecutor story, but the more I dug down, the more I realized that might not be the case.

I'm not calling Shokin a saint either. He worked with the prior Ukrainian governments, which were corrupt. He's therefore probably got a few skeletons in his closet. Corruption level is not a black and white issue, but a spectrum. But something just didn't add up about the narrative behind Biden's story: if his son was on the board of the company Shokin was getting ready to prosecute, why would Joe want to remove a corrupt prosecutor that could be bought off, and allow another prosecutor to take over who perhaps couldn't be bought off? That made no sense whatsoever.

Joe Biden and Barack Obama used financial blackmail to have a prosecutor fired in the Ukraine, and Biden is on tape bragging about it. That brings up the question if Hunter Biden's salary wasn't a payback to Joe Biden for the loan guarantees; that's money laundering. And it's all Trump's fault?

The mind boogles.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: grey580
...
However it should be noted that Ukraine's Burisma case was closed and no wrong doing was found and the company agreed to pay any taxes that it owed.

Yeah, ironic how the next prosecutor was so pro-Obama/Biden/Clinton and was pretty much a lackey who did as was told. Not only was Biden/Obama able to get the prosecutor fired, but they seemed to have a hand on transferring the investigation as well to another Ukranian agency, NABU, and since then their actions and embassy officials were pro-Clinton.

...
Shokin’s probe was composed of three separate cases. Solomon interviewed the current Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko in March 2019 which I wrote about here. Lutsenko confirmed that after Shokin was fired, the primary case was “transferred to a different Ukrainian agency, closely aligned with the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, known as the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU).” You may recall that many Embassy officials, and their actions as well, were pro-Hillary Clinton.

It should come as no surprise that NABU closed the case. Solomon reported:

A second case involving alleged improper money transfers in London was dropped when Ukrainian officials failed to file the necessary documents by the required deadline. The general prosecutor’s office successfully secured a multimillion-dollar judgment in a tax evasion case, Lutsenko said. He did not say who was the actual defendant in that case.
...

Stop The Tape! How Has Joe Biden’s Scandal Suddenly Become President Trump’s Scandal?

What's more, the above article also postulated, and I quote:

...
In February 2014, Biden became the Obama administration’s “point man” on Ukraine. Within months, Hunter’s business, Rosemont Seneca Partners LLC, was receiving large monthly deposits from Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian energy company. These payments began in the spring of 2014 and continued through the fall of 2015. According to writer Peter Schweitzer, both Hunter and his business partner were named to Burisma’s board in the spring of 2014 as well. Hunter was tasked with overseeing Burisma’s legal team.
...

Stop The Tape! How Has Joe Biden’s Scandal Suddenly Become President Trump’s Scandal?

So within months of Obama making Biden "the point man on Ukraine", not only did Hunter's business get large amounts of money from the oil company Burisma Holdings, but he was in charge/overseeing Burisma's legal team. Ironically Hunter didn't have ANY experience whatsoever on oil businesses. In other words, if there was corruption in Burisma holdings, Hunter Biden would have known about such corruption and he was getting paid to stay silent, and keep the "quip pro quo" rolling.

HOLY MOLEY, MAMA OF BOB LEE!

I just looked into the prosecutor that eventually replaced Viktor Shokin, Yuriy Lutsenko!

Lutsenko served from May 12, 2016 until August 29th of this year. During the month and a half between he and Shokin, the position was filled by Yuriy Sevruk, who was serving as Shokin's deputy at the time of his dismissal. Sevruk was appointed by Shokin shortly before his firing according to the Kyiv Post.

Now here's the juicy stuff, paraphrased direct from Wikipedia:

His father, Vitaliy Ivanovych Lutsenko, was a politician himself, and at one time the Secretary to the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine. Yuriy Lutsenko himself was a long-term member of the same party after it was outlawed (after the USSR collapse) and rebranded the Socialist Party of Ukraine. He resigned from the Socialist Party of Ukraine after he became a minister.

In 2009, Lutsenko was detained at the Frankfurt Airport by the German police for being inebriated. Apparently there was no violent opposition to the arrest, but the investigation into the incident was later conveniently blocked. In January of 2010, Lutsenko was dismissed by the Ukraine parliament and the same day was appointed "first deputy interior minister and acting interior minister" by the Cabinet.

The rest I will quote as an excerpt.

On 13 December 2010 Lutsenko was charged with abuse of office and forgery by Prosecutor General of Ukraine Viktor Pshonka. On 5 November it was already announcement that Lutsenko faced criminal charges for an alleged financial crime involving a less than $5,000 overpayment to his driver. According to Lutsenko the criminal case against him is political persecution. Pshonka has denied this. Lutsenko was also charged with having signed an order whilst on holiday and not having cancelled the traditional "National Militia Day" despite a general instruction from the then Prime Minister to make budgetary savings where possible. Lutsenko has been jailed since 26 December 2010 in Kiev's Lukyanivka Prison. Lutsenko was arrested near his home on 26 December; on 27 December a court ordered his arrest on the grounds that he had been dodging questioning in violation of his written pledge not to leave Kiev. Three criminal cases opened against him where merged into one on 27 January 2011. Lutsenko went on a hunger strike from 22 April till 24 May 2011 in protest against his "preventive punishment".

Lutsenko filed a complaint in a U.S. court on 14 December 2011 against his (Ukrainian) prosecutors, made possible by the Alien Tort Statute, for "illegal arrest and arbitrarily prolonged detention".

On 27 February 2012, after a pre-trial detention of 14 months,[60] Lutsenko was sentenced to fours year in jail (with confiscation of his property) for embezzlement and abuse of office. The total damages caused by Lutsenko to Ukraine's budget had been estimated at $125,000. Lutsenko immediately after his sentence stated he will appeal against sentence. The European Commission stated the day of his sentence "signals the continuation of trials in Ukraine which do not respect international standards as regards fair, transparent and independent legal process"; spokesperson for the United States Department of State Victoria Nuland stated the cases raised "serious concerns about the government of Ukraine's commitment to democracy and the rule of law"; other Council of Europe member have criticised the sentence in similar wording. In a statement issued by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) right after the verdict of 27 February 2012 Lutsenko was named "the victim of a political vendetta"; the next day the President of Pace Jean-Claude Mignon called for his release. Human rights organizations have urged the high courts in Ukraine to overturn the verdict against Lutsenko. On 29 February 2012 the European People's Party demanded "immediate release of Yulia Tymoshenko, Yuriy Lutsenko and other political prisoners; it also insisted the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the European Union should not be signed and ratified until these demands where met. An appeal to the sentence was filed 7 March 2012. Since the EU has shelved the European Union Association Agreement and Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with Ukraine because of the imprisonment of him and Tymoshenko.

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) will consider a complaint lodged by Lutsenko on 17 April 2012, Lutsenko claims his arrest and the decision on his detention were arbitrary and unlawful.

On 3 July 2012, the ECHR stated that the arrest of Lutsenko violated his human rights and the court ordered the Ukrainian government to pay 15,000 Euro to Lutsenko as compensation for moral damages.

On 17 August 2012 Lutsenko was sentenced to two years in prison for the extension of an investigative case concerning Valentyn Davydenko, the driver of former Security Service of Ukraine First Deputy Chief Volodymyr Satsiuk, as part of an investigation into the poisoning of then presidential candidate Viktor Yuschenko. He served his time in a prison in the city of Mena. During his imprisonment Lutsenko was moved several times to hospital to receive medical treatment.

Lutsenko lost his appeal on 3 April 2013; this High Court ruling could be challenged in any other Ukrainian court.

The judges of the Higher Specialized Court on Civil and Criminal Cases will on 10 April 2013 announce a ruling on the appeal against the second conviction of Lutsenko regarding the poisoning of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko; this will not influence the term of Lutsenko's imprisonment.

In April of 2014, Lutsenko was pardoned by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. This is about 2 years before he was appointed as General Prosecutor of Ukraine, apparently at the request of Joe Biden! This was the person who replaced Viktor Shokin because Biden claimed Shokin was corrupt!

Everyone get that? Joe Biden claimed Shokin was corrupt, threatened to withhold $1 BILLION in loan guarantees from Ukraine, money needed to defend against Russia, unless Shokin was fired... only to be replaced by a pardoned felon!

This rabbit hole just got a lot deeper... redneck is still digging...

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Oh boy, oh boy. Indeed the rabbit hole has become a rabbit cave. Shokin is probably no saint, as you stated in this thread, but he seemed interested, alongside with others in the Prosecutor General office of Ukraine, with going after the corruption that they saw between the former Ukranian administration and the Obama/Biden administration. With the help of Obama/Biden and Soros Shokin was fired, a pro-Clinton/pro-Obama/pro-Biden agency was given the investigation and they immediately closed the case claiming there was no corruption, even thou Biden himself boasted that he bribed the Ukranians to fire Shokin for daring to investigate Hunter Biden, and his link to the corrupt company Burisma Holdings. Hunter Biden himself oversaw the legal team of Burisma holdings... Whom would know more about corruption from a company other than the "legal team of that company themselves" unless they were investigated?

a reply to: TheRedneck

It seems the legitimacy of the president's request has some validation.

If there is corruption, extortion, influencing or any of the likes I want to see it. I don't care which party.

If it's there, it needs to be investigated, plain and simple.

"Disgruntled ex-CIA operative"

Well when are folks going to figure out that the CIA isnt your friend or buddy. The CIA is an espionage service first and foremost.Its NOT the FBI.. as in its not for the people. Its changed a hell of a lot since 1947... hence the creation of the NSA, Homeland, etc. The CIA is a whole 'nother animal.

"CIA operative" by itself was a clue it was stinky. "Disgruntled" and "ex" added to it was like the stinky cherry on top.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Vector99

I'm going to add a little pure speculation to the issue here...

Nancy Pelosi announced last week that President Trump was guilty of a cover-up before she even saw the transcript of the call. We know that anti-Trump powers still exist in the US government almost three years after Trump took office. How much of a stretch is it to believe that elements of the former corrupt Ukrainian government still exist in Ukraine a mere 4 months after Zelensky took power?

Taken together, what are the odds that there are still operatives in the Ukraine government cooperating with the deep state in the USA? I'd say pretty good. Pelosi has become well known as of late for her... ummm... let's call it a need for an abundance of liquid. I am starting to think her statement was a slip of the tongue due to her lack of cognitive reasoning while consuming those large amounts of liquid. Someone may well be feeding information directly from Zelensky to the deep state. Heck, it's even possible that the whistleblower did have direct access through this channel... or at least that the whistleblower's sources were inside the Ukraine instead of the White House. There have already been several details in the whistleblower report that do not exactly align with the facts based on US protocols in place.

Now consider that there are quite a few rumors that the whistleblower is a CIA operative.

Cave my happy little redneck rear... this is starting to sound like the hollow earth theory had merit!

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

How much of a stretch is it to believe that elements of the former corrupt Ukrainian government still exist in Ukraine a mere 4 months after Zelensky took power?

Russians still exist in that government, 30 years later. Of course there will be will be elements remaining anti-current government officials working within the administration.

Bits and pieces of the Obama hot mic event start to make a lot of sense when you consider Crimea was annexed only 2 years later, and how soft Obama was on that.

Everything is new in both countries (US and UKR) and the establishment is scared. The media complicity in all of it is what concerns me most, because lets face it, most of the populous might not be necessarily dumb, but they are extremely gullible. They will buy it if they hear it enough. It's literally Nazi-style tactics being employed. We've seen the women, the children, the disabled. They all cry out, but they cry out only for what they've been told, not what they've learned.

And that is worrisome...to say the least.

a reply to: Vector99

Yeah, the fact that Ukraine was part of the expanded Russia (USSR) not very long ago has not escaped my notice. Most of the names I have mentioned in this thread are identified as Russian names.

The media spin is troublesome, but I believe the American media at least has played their cards too fast and too loose for too long. American confidence in the media is rapidly declining, thanks in no small part to Trump's continual cry of "fake news." Various communities inside America, such as the black community, the Hispanic community, and the like, are starting to see the disconnect as the media tells them they are worse off under Trump but their paychecks say different. Even the DNC candidates themselves are working against their own best interests: the liberal medias hosted the Democratic debates, where the candidates openly admitted being diametrically opposed to what most of their constituency wants.

The public won't get to weigh in until November of next year anyway, and I expect the hammer to drop just before the election. That'll be hard to spin and harder to ignore even for the corrupt MSM. I feel sure it will take most of the country by surprise when it drops, and I also believe the MSM will try to spin it as equal to Nixon's actions just before Watergate, but one thing Trump is, is a master of media manipulation. Hopefully he can handle that.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I think the tip of the iceberg starts with that hot mic moment. I think this has been a long play, and it's being played out perfectly.

The setup is the collapse of the USA, just like the USSR in the 80's.

Trump is a thorn in that side, so is the new Ukranian government.

The same players exist, the same game plan exists, except this time the target has changed.

Why didn't the US under Obama uphold our treaty to protect Ukraine during the annexation of Crimea?

Treaties mean absolutely nothing anymore, because that same treaty we signed to protect them? So did Russia. And Russia is the aggressor this time, taking back soviet land, while in the mean time fracturing the US. Sad part? That treaty still remains, and Russia is constantly sending in tank into eastern ukraine. That is why the ukrainian government wants those javelins, to fight back the little green men that now come equipped with tanks.

There is a much deeper war going on at the moment, and its completely psychological.

The current war is for emotions, and we see how easily heart strings can be tugged. It's a media war as well, well simply because they are complicit and will broadcast anything if you have enough money. The media USED to be about reporting, then they saw how much money tabloids made, so they adopted that model themselves. Hence, we have been fed propaganda that people that pay money want us to think and feel for nearly 2 decades...and it's working

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: TheRedneck

Maybe because there's no evidence other than Republicans grasping at straws that Joe Biden did anything wrong. Where as with Trump it's pretty blatant evidence.

The NSA undoubtedly recorded Trumps conversation. They should be able to disclose the actual recording.

The exact opposite is true

ZERO “evidence” against the President.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
--continued from above--

From the same ar ticle:

That is, the Presidential Administration stated fact that Sakvarelidze should become your deputy?

Not exactly. A start was a kind of familiarization. Having greeted David at one of the working meetings, Pyatt said to me: "Well, this man is very respected by the American people." Well, I answered and asked, and what did he do for the USA? After all, they all escaped from their countries... Pyatt became mad, he was offended by this...

That is, Sakvarelidze was imposed by the Americans? So he dealt with their interests here, right?

Partly so, but he did not serve America’s interests, but Biden’s personal interests (I clearly share these things). Specifically, Biden stood behind it all. Then Biden landed here such managers who were personally obliged to him and were on his pay and allowance. Everyone knew about it.

Do you think that the "diamond prosecutors" (“diamond prosecutors,” troves of diamonds, cash and other valuables were found in the homes of two of Shokin’s subordinates, suggesting that they had been taking bribes, - ed.) case was used for blackmailing you so that you would step back from Zlochevsky?

No, I would never have gone on such a deal. Sakvarelidze and Trepak simply covered these judges, and used them in their “Biden needs.”

So why then you were fired?

Biden took it very seriously. He promised Poroshenko that he would bring damaging information against me. He arrived in December 2015, spoke at the Verkhovna Rada, said nothing about it, and left. I then got ready and went to Bankova (where President’s Administration is located, - ed.). The conversation was like: "Well, did Biden bring some damaging information?" - "Viktor, he did not bring anything against you." You know that if the Vice-President of the United States had evidence of my corruption, he would probably use all this for his own purposes.

But this did not really help.

Yes, there were regular ultimatums and discussions about me. I finally crossed the threshold on February 2, 2016, when we went to the courts with requests to re-impose arrests on the Burisma property. I suppose that then the president received another call from Biden, blackmail by non-allotment of credit... Poroshenko surrendered then.

What? That sounds like Shokin was actually trying to ferret out corruption from the Burisma Group. Now recall from above that he was feuding with his second in command, and that his associates were caught with all that hot loot that it makes no sense for them to have lying around at home. He also apparently would not take bribes from Zlochevsky to drop the investigations.

It appears that Shokin was not as corrupt as his reputation says.

Which answers the question of why Zlochevsky was forced to flee prosecution. But if Shokin wasn't corrupt, why was he fired? According to Shokin himself above, Biden was the source of the corruption. He could have gotten his son a position on the board of the Burisma Group to replace Zlochevsky... and the only thing that could interfere was an investigation by Viktor Shokin.

Now, all that is simply supposition, a tall tale that formed in my mind. It does not mean either Biden did anything wrong. However, it does have circumstantial evidentiary support, and to my thinking that means there should be an investigation into Joe and Hunter Biden by Ukraine... ironically exactly what Trump was asking for. So why the fervor over making sure Joe Biden is insulated from any such investigation?

We also know that Trump's primary mention was Crowdstrike, the company who performed the forensic examination on the hacked DNC server. We also know that the FBI was denied access to the servers, and that denial means that they could not possibly have searched the drives for residual data to indicate improper erased access... a duplicate drive simply does not contain that type of information. This kind of examination, based on the results of an outside private firm, is highly unusual. Is it possible that the information actually obtained from Crowdstrike is still in the Ukraine as a backup? Could those servers still be sitting a warehouse somewhere? There is, since last month, a new Prosecutor General, Rusian Riaboshapka, and President Zelensky seemed to think so based on the phone call transcript. President Zelensky ran on a platform of anti-corruption... could this be Trump's opportunity to find out exactly how the Russian investigation came about?

That would explain the frantic calls for impeachment. They are doubly strange when one realizes that the election is only a little over a year away and the political fallout from defeating Trump in the election would be orders of magnitude less severe than impeaching him over a questionable phone call. Why would the Democrats in Congress choose the hardest route with the most risk and least chance of success with a Republican Senate? Also, several Republicans are indicating a willingness to go along with impeachment, and we all know (or should) that corruption is not restricted to party.

I believe this accusation has opened up a breach in the armor surrounding the establishment in Washington DC. The tendrils of such an investigation could conceivably reach all the way back to Obama and Clinton. If I am right, no wonder people are so scared!

Joe Biden's actions in the Ukraine should be investigated. If I am wrong, I am wrong and he has nothing to hide. But if I am right... this could be the biggest scandal to ever hit the US government. We just spent almost three years investigating a sitting President because someone incorrectly thought he colluded with Russia... there seems to be more here than there was there.

TheRedneck

Very interesting. Kinda makes one think why Obama was urging Biden not to run for the presidency in 2020.

originally posted by: contextual
trumps still hiding his taxes, where is the outrage and thread after thread demanding an investigation?

A conspiracy forum where the president can do no wrong? How times have changed.

He's not hiding anything. He's under no obligation to release them.

Only the left cares about it. They want something, ANYTHING to attempt to shame him over.

a reply to: TheRedneck

There are ceratin states used for money laundering. The Ukraine is one of them. It's what manafort and gates went down for. It's what tony podesta should have gone down for. It's what the bidens were doing. The Ukraine runs a big money laundering front for US tax dollars going to US politicians and those connected to them. That's why the frantic calls for impeachment have started, this will blow up one of the most lucrative money laundering operations in global history.

The deep state is involved at a base level. Which is why trump is focusing his energy there. If he destroys their funding and takes out a bunch of their tainted assets, it's a deadly blow. Couple that with the coup investigation and prosecutions that are coming and the deep state may be dismantled almost entirely by just these two actions.

a reply to: poncho1982

This is the funniest thing that the left is obsessed with. Why do they care so much about his taxes? Do they think he cheats, really? They think a billionaire whose every tax return for the last 40 years has been painstakingly scrutinized by the IRS and NY tax authority is cheating on his taxes? LOL.

a reply to: Dfairlite

Why do they care so much about his taxes?

Isn't it obvious? I've been saying it for almost three years now.

Because Trump is not in the FBI database!

The FBI was always the lynchpin for corruption in Washington, DC. Always. They kept a database of dirt on every politician that showed any sign of rising to the national, or in many cases even the state, level. Who they associated with that could be used against them; what financial mistakes they had made; who they had slept with; all of it. And it stayed safely tucked away, but ready to be pulled out at a moment's notice should anyone try to enter the political fray and upset the status quo.

No one ever thought Donald Trump would get into politics... just a loud-mouthed tycoon with funny hair that gave money to politicians. Even if he did try to get involved, there's no way anyone would vote for such a buffoon. But then he did get involved, and he won the highest office in the land, directly overseeing the FBI where that precious database was stored. Look at what the deep state has done:

• Before he was elected, they used a fake dossier from the Clinton campaign to get a FISA warrant on Carter Page so they could spy on his campaign looking for dirt.
  
  
• After Trump took office, James Comey tried to covertly investigate him, looking for anything he could use to find some dirt that way.
  
  
• When Trump fired Comey, who everyone was angry with for bungling an investigation into Hillary and helping Trump win, suddenly he was guilty of collusion and obstruction of justice and two scoops of ice cream and probably clubbing baby seals with government issued clubs. No, he got access to the database; everyone in DC knew it and they all had a canyption.
  
  
• Robert Mueller was not hired to investigate Russian interference; that was his cover story. He was hired to find dirt on Trump. Period. By any means necessary, including threatening Trump's associates to get them to lie.
  
  
• Michael Avernatti was an opportunist who thought he could get in on the play by introducing the world to Trunp's sex life.
  
  
• They screamed for Trump's taxes... because somewhere in all those numbers might be some little hint of something he has done wrong that can be used against him.
  
  
• Now that Trump has been caught looking into the Ukraine (yes, I realized early on it was a money laundering scheme going on), they start an impeachment investigation to try again to find some dirt on Trump, true or not. Anything to save their own skins in Congress!

It has been one search after another for something they can use to bring Donald Trump in line... anything to keep him from spilling all the beans to the public. Every other politician arrives in DC and gets a nice, friendly visit from an FBI agent who explains exactly what information they have and exactly what is expected if they don't want it released next election. Not Trump. He was clean.

A clean politician is not allowed to hold power... the people be damned.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Powerful stuff, well said.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I don't buy that. A database like that would definitely include someone like Trump. Every billionaire would be included, there are less than 600 of them in the US. They're the only real threat to the establishment as they can't be bought, they have too much money already. Trump has expressed interest (with reservation) in going into politics as president since the 80's. Hell, he ran in 1999-2000. At that point the overly cautious deep state would start scooping up his taxes.

There's no way trump is clean. You don't make billions in big city real estate without stepping on some toes (laws). They've got a file on trump, the problem is no one cares about it because we elected him to do one thing: MAGA. He's doing exactly that and nothing they do can stop his re-election. Only he can by stopping MAGA.

Alternative theory would be that in 2000 they did lean on him a little about taxes and from there on out he went to great lengths to make sure they were perfect. So while they have his taxes, there is nothing in there for them to release to achieve any real damage to the president. This would explain the mid 90's to 2005 tax release in an attempt to embarass him over writing off (legally) his huge losses.

a reply to: TheRedneck

(likely because they know he is set for another term)

Yeah, this is not why.