The Antidemocratic Liberal democrats Seek to Scrap Brexit

a reply to: gortex
I don't think there is anything feigned about French hostility towards England, and I'm sure Macron's impatience with the whole Brexit process is a genuine expression of it. If he thinks England wants an extension, he's going to make sure we don't get one.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Take into account political game playing , if / when an extension is sought I have no doubt it will be given , I believe brinkmanship is the game the EU are playing which is why Johnson was trying to engage in it , weak wills and Parliamentary sabotage have killed that effort.

What Merkel says is important Macron not so much.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ScepticScot

Party asking it's membership about a policy for next election is undemocratic?

Pledging to revoke Article 50 without another referendum is undemocratic but then the actions of the remain element in Parliament has also been undemocratic by taking power away from the PM and hampering Brexit negotiations , but it seems that's their MO.

No Brexit is the only real Brexit.

I struggle to even get get my head round the doublethink that makes people think that not giving the PM absolute authority on the negotiations is somehow undemocratic.

And I struggle to think how having a democratic vote on rather or not to remain in the eu,

and having politicians refuse to carry out the will of the Democratic vote

Isn’t in fact undemocratic

I assume you would ok with the US constitution being amended with a simple majority vote then?

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ScepticScot

I struggle to even get get my head round the doublethink that makes people think that not giving the PM absolute authority on the negotiations is somehow undemocratic.

Then you obviously don't see the problem , or chose to ignore it.

It isn't about giving the PM absolute authority it's about undermining the negotiations for us to leave , they are weakening the hand of the government so they get their way , No Brexit , that to me is damn near treasonous.

Revoking article 50 without the say of the people is undemocratic as it's going against the stated will of the people.

PUBLISHED: Wed, Sep 11, 2019
A majority of 54 percent agreed that Brexit should be respected, while just 25 percent disagreed.

Around 21 percent couldn’t make up their minds.

The real surprise, however, came with previous Remainers now wanting Brexit to be delivered.

Nearly half of those who completed the survey stated that Brexit shouldn’t be postponed until January 31, while 29 percent were certain that the exit date should be stretched.

The poll also took the fresh reports into consideration, asking participants about their thoughts of the EU offering no concessions to the UK in an exit deal.

Some 43 percent agreed that if the UE made no concessions, the UK UK should leave without a deal on October 31, compared with a 32 percent who disagreed.
www.express.co.uk...

The idea that it's weakening the negotiating position is nonsense.

Regardless the principle the groveement doesn't get to make such important decisions without parliamentary scrutiny is far more important.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ScepticScot

Party asking it's membership about a policy for next election is undemocratic?

Pledging to revoke Article 50 without another referendum is undemocratic but then the actions of the remain element in Parliament has also been undemocratic by taking power away from the PM and hampering Brexit negotiations , but it seems that's their MO.

No Brexit is the only real Brexit.

I struggle to even get get my head round the doublethink that makes people think that not giving the PM absolute authority on the negotiations is somehow undemocratic.

And I struggle to think how having a democratic vote on rather or not to remain in the eu,

and having politicians refuse to carry out the will of the Democratic vote

Isn’t in fact undemocratic

I assume you would ok with the US constitution being amended with a simple majority vote then?

No but that’s because that would be against the constitution

The U.K. government gave a vote on leaving the eu and swore they would abide by the results

It’s has been three years and they still have failed to uphold that democratic vote

If the vote would have been for remain, but the government left against the will of the people, I am sure you would have called that undemocratic

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ScepticScot

Party asking it's membership about a policy for next election is undemocratic?

Pledging to revoke Article 50 without another referendum is undemocratic but then the actions of the remain element in Parliament has also been undemocratic by taking power away from the PM and hampering Brexit negotiations , but it seems that's their MO.

No Brexit is the only real Brexit.

I struggle to even get get my head round the doublethink that makes people think that not giving the PM absolute authority on the negotiations is somehow undemocratic.

And I struggle to think how having a democratic vote on rather or not to remain in the eu,

and having politicians refuse to carry out the will of the Democratic vote

Isn’t in fact undemocratic

I assume you would ok with the US constitution being amended with a simple majority vote then?

No but that’s because that would be against the constitution

The U.K. government gave a vote on leaving the eu and swore they would abide by the results

It’s has been three years and they still have failed to uphold that democratic vote

If the vote would have been for remain, but the government left against the will of the people, I am sure you would have called that undemocratic

If you are not ok with your rights being changed by a majority vote why should I be ok with having mine changed?

It was never going to be a instant exit, the article 50 legislation was passed and the position at the moment is that UK is leaving the EU.

The idea that the 'will of the people' is being thwarted is nonsense.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ScepticScot

Party asking it's membership about a policy for next election is undemocratic?

Pledging to revoke Article 50 without another referendum is undemocratic but then the actions of the remain element in Parliament has also been undemocratic by taking power away from the PM and hampering Brexit negotiations , but it seems that's their MO.

No Brexit is the only real Brexit.

I struggle to even get get my head round the doublethink that makes people think that not giving the PM absolute authority on the negotiations is somehow undemocratic.

And I struggle to think how having a democratic vote on rather or not to remain in the eu,

and having politicians refuse to carry out the will of the Democratic vote

Isn’t in fact undemocratic

I assume you would ok with the US constitution being amended with a simple majority vote then?

No but that’s because that would be against the constitution

The U.K. government gave a vote on leaving the eu and swore they would abide by the results

It’s has been three years and they still have failed to uphold that democratic vote

If the vote would have been for remain, but the government left against the will of the people, I am sure you would have called that undemocratic

If you are not ok with your rights being changed by a majority vote why should I be ok with having mine changed?

It was never going to be a instant exit, the article 50 legislation was passed and the position at the moment is that UK is leaving the EU.

The idea that the 'will of the people' is being thwarted is nonsense.

Ridiculous

I would be ok if the us decided to have a referendum on whether we should leave an international coalition, like nato

I would not be ok if the government refused to will of the people on that referendum

We get it; you only like democracy when it agrees with you

That’s not democracy though

I guarantee had this situation been reversed and people voted to remain but the government left, you would be outraged

a reply to: Grambler
To be fair, the fight is actually between two competing forms of democratic expression.
The legislature, on the one hand, which is normal in our constitution.
The referendum, on the other hand, which is abnormal in our constitution.
That's why both sides are claiming "democracy" for their motto.
A General Election, which is another form of democratic expression, might have given a casting vote. but the current legislature don't want to allow one (which tells you what they think its verdict would be).

a reply to: DISRAELI

The he problem is parliament agreed to abide by the referendum

The elites assumed they could use their propaganda with their media to ensure a victory for remain, and so they had no problem with the referendum

Only when they lost did it become a problem

It’s not just the U.K. this happens, though this is the clearest example

The elites only want the image of democracy and the average people’s vote mattering

When those votes go against the elites wishes, they find excuses to all of the sudden be against the democratic vote

Like the Lisbon treaty

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ScepticScot

Party asking it's membership about a policy for next election is undemocratic?

Pledging to revoke Article 50 without another referendum is undemocratic but then the actions of the remain element in Parliament has also been undemocratic by taking power away from the PM and hampering Brexit negotiations , but it seems that's their MO.

No Brexit is the only real Brexit.

I struggle to even get get my head round the doublethink that makes people think that not giving the PM absolute authority on the negotiations is somehow undemocratic.

And I struggle to think how having a democratic vote on rather or not to remain in the eu,

and having politicians refuse to carry out the will of the Democratic vote

Isn’t in fact undemocratic

I assume you would ok with the US constitution being amended with a simple majority vote then?

No but that’s because that would be against the constitution

The U.K. government gave a vote on leaving the eu and swore they would abide by the results

It’s has been three years and they still have failed to uphold that democratic vote

If the vote would have been for remain, but the government left against the will of the people, I am sure you would have called that undemocratic

If you are not ok with your rights being changed by a majority vote why should I be ok with having mine changed?

It was never going to be a instant exit, the article 50 legislation was passed and the position at the moment is that UK is leaving the EU.

The idea that the 'will of the people' is being thwarted is nonsense.

Ridiculous

I would be ok if the us decided to have a referendum on whether we should leave an international coalition, like nato

I would not be ok if the government refused to will of the people on that referendum

We get it; you only like democracy when it agrees with you

That’s not democracy though

I guarantee had this situation been reversed and people voted to remain but the government left, you would be outraged

The US constitution is designed to stop majority rule over individual rights.

Apparently we should just be ok with it?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Some things are decided by referendum in the us

The U.K. government decided it would be perfectly acceptable to allow a democratic vote on whether to stay in the eu, because they assumed remain would win

Any government that promises a democratic vote o something, then refuses to honor that vote because they didn’t like the results is authoritarian and un democratic

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: ScepticScot

Some things are decided by referendum in the us

The U.K. government decided it would be perfectly acceptable to allow a democratic vote on whether to stay in the eu, because they assumed remain would win

Any government that promises a democratic vote o something, then refuses to honor that vote because they didn’t like the results is authoritarian and un democratic

When was the constitution of the US amended by a simple majority vote?

Just because the government assumed something doesn't make it OK.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin



The EU was gonna toss Greece, no questions. Why wont they just let the UK go? Too much power lost. The EU is a German invention to control Europe...a 4th Reich. Tell me who benefits beyond Germany and France?

a reply to: gortex
I dont understand you all had 17 million votes to exit and you all cant get 1/2 million people into the streets like HK? Get off your buns and go into the streets and raise hell. Yet you set around wring your hands and not doing squat.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin



Pfffft, really?


I know, its the Sun, but facts iz facts...

www.thesun.co.uk...

a reply to: Grambler

What you need to understand though is that although we agreed to leave the EU we didn't agree on or vote on how we would do that which is part of the mess we are in.

Right now we have a government pushing the most extreme version a hard no-deal exist; between that and flat out remaining in the EU there is a whole range of options that would still mean leaving the EU but would cause less damage (I for example would like us to remain in the single market). Thats basically the problem we have right now, our democratically elected and sovereign parliament does not want a hard no-deal Brexit yet the government does.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
P.S. What they are forgetting, of course, is that "cancel Brexit" is a usable election slogan only if the election takes place before Brexit is concluded. Now that it's legally impossible to arrange one before November, that looks rather unlikely.

Nice one!

Rainbows
Jane

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The Liberals are a nothingless floating in a sea of political BS swirling around Westminster at the moment but it's the gall of Jo Swinson to name her "Shadow Cabinet" a couple of weeks ago and to now suggest they could win a majority shows to me that nutty Liberals are not just a problem over the pond , it's here too.

Only Her Majesty's official opposition (the Labour Party) have the right to a shadow cabinet not parties with just a handful of Members of Parliament , I long for a General Election so we can lance this boil once and for all but those who wish to remain don't have the balls to go for it , preferring instead to talk about how they want one and what they would do when they win it.

To promise to revoke Article 50 because we gave the "wrong" answer to a question asked is undemocratic , it is ignoring the voice of the people and they will pay the price.

This country is a disgrace , the political turmoil of the last couple of years has peeled back the thin veneer of respectability to show the rot that lies beneath , our political system has been broken for a long time but now we have clear evidence of that.

In my mind the referendum result was a split right down the middle of the country, it was something that should have been considered on in the make-up of the referendum, just as they did consider giving the 16 year olds a vote as was in Scotland...but dropped it with the 'clever' advice given by the Home Office gnomes.

UK population 66.04 million,

number of elected voters who voted,
33.7m
13.5m number of elected voters who didn't.

That means 32.3m voters who didn't vote for anything, even so, the close vote cries out unworkable, no firm, or company could function properly with out a workable quorum ethic, so something needs to be done in a more novel way.

Eire's ability to have a referendum for instance for any proposal put forward by the EU...why not the UK? after all, if the Irish say no to a proposal in their referendum, then the EU proposal itself is ended.

Something like that would certainly put an end to all the sillies who rattle on about the EU ruling Britain, which was not the case anyway...all member countries have to agree with anything Brussels puts out before it can come become a ruling, law, policy....whatever.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: gortex
I don't think there is anything feigned about French hostility towards England, and I'm sure Macron's impatience with the whole Brexit process is a genuine expression of it. If he thinks England wants an extension, he's going to make sure we don't get one.

Just my view, but historically the French have always battled the 'English' but feel a 'kinship' with the Scots if it means they can 'control' the English with their support.......
After WWII my grandfather always said he would trust a German over a Frenchman....and he was Welsh!!
Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: Grambler

how do you make that out isn't democracy about majority rules not only when it suits