Historian's Claim:Hitler Had the A-Bomb!

Nobody honestly cares,

Re: Yes they do...

you can support the Nazi's all you want if you like,

Re: I DO NOT SUPPORT THE NAZI'S! as I stated BEFORE don't make me look worse than I am.

just don't do it here.

re: You are ridiculing me and insulting me, it's agains the TOS of this site and I am doing something I am allowed to.

I find what you say really sad, and how you think the world would have been better under a Nazi Regime,

Re: Fine, keep that to your self, and I ONLY SPECULATED about it, I wasn't saying: Thw world would have been SO MUCH beter when the Nazi's won, I NEVER SAID THAT!

and I think you are one of the few people in world who expresses an opinion like this, so please, don't say it

Re: wrong.

(I find it hard to believe your Dutch, and yet you say these pro-Nazi things... Holland suffered so badly during WW2 under Nazi Rule and many civilians died) .

Re: I never supported what they did to my country nor any oither country, I am reacting like this BECAUSE WE SUFFERED, I am not happy how either the Nazi's or the Allies treated us during the war, we honestly didn't care who won, we just wanted it to be over.

Please stop argueing and get back to topic now. If want to argue go start another topic.

Re: I wont stop before you stop, stop ridiculing me and insulting me, another warning is waiting for you.

I still stay by my case, I believe the Germans possibly did have nukes but I have no conclusive evidence as of right now.

Godverdomme man, ik ben een oer-hollandse jongen en het maakt mij geen reet uit wat je denkt, ik ben geen kut nazi of een duitser, ik ben een nederlander die getrouwt ben met een amerikaan, ik haat het hoe de duitser 100% slecht worden beschouwt en hoe de geällieërden de goeien zijn, dat vind ik zwaar minder! het is geen zwart-wit beeld, het is meer grijs-grijs, je kan niet 100% zeker zijn wie slecht en wie goed was, het is een soort ying-yang iets.

Still think i'm not dutch? good luck translating i'm dutch, and if I hear 1 comment doubting my nationality, i'll post my passport...

[edit on 10/3/2005 by GrOuNd_ZeRo]

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Please explain to me the point you were trying to make...

Just basically these:

World War 2 was a bad time, was a very 'evil' time, however I see worse crimes that have happened before and after WW2. Some that still happen today.

I feel as though we're gloryfying WW2 and in turn this can only cause more problems.

The way we teach WW2 is also from a very jaded perspective. We only learn about how the Jews got killed and this isn't the way it should be taught.

I feel as though we're making a martyr out of Hitler and his actions. By doing this we'll only make more people become like him. For example the BNP (British National Party) and the guy who came second in the last French election are both very influenced by Hitler. Partly because of the jaded perspective.

Hope that makes more sense.

P.S. are you a Muslim or just reader of the Qu'Ran?

Odium, I completely agree with you, just to stretch a point I was trying to make: I -WONDER- what would've happened if the Nazi's won instead of the allies, I don't wish that they won.

I don't glorify Hitler as the best leader of the 20th century or anything even remotely like that and I think that conspira is upset that I even remotely support hitler, I do admire Nazi Germany for their technological advancement being so rapid, I admire their bold tactics even if it was cowardly, but if they would have won, the chain of events that lead to my birth probably would not have happened and i'm happy that things went the way it did.

So please don't deliberately try to irk me off because i'm extremely patient and I will not resort to crude behaviour unlike you.

On whether or not von Braun stalled Nazi projects:
Not sure, but he did have the scientists under him stash 10 tons of blueprints relating to the A-4 and the intercontinental A-9/A-10 rocket in a deserted Iron mine near Nordhausen before they were told to evacuate (an act that would have most likely gotten them all killed had the Germans found out).

As for the ability to build an A-Bomb:
On May 16, 1945, the German u-boat, U-234 surrendered to the US in Portsmouth, NH. Among the things it was carrying was equipment and blueprints for German jet aircraft, and technical experts, among them a nuclear technician. This let investigators know this was no ordinary U-boat. A secondary examination found 560 kilos of uranium in 10 gold lined containers in the mine laying tubes marked uranium oxide. Uranium oxide in it's natural form is safe enough to carry around in a paper bag, but since the containers were gold lined it indicates that the cargo was emmitting gamma radiation. This in turn means that the uranium was enriched in a working reactor (and yet there has never been found a reactor in Germany capable of fufilling this task).

As for delivery systems:
Known as "heavy trucks" the Ju 390 (6 engined version of the Ju 290) could have possibly been outfitted from it's cargo role to a bomber. On one occasion, a Ju 390 flew to within 12 miles of New York and back again and it is capable of very heavy payloads. Three Ju 290 variants are known to have made flights to Japaneese bases in Manchuria.

I don't know if they had the A-Bomb, this is just some evidence that there might be more to it than meets the eye. Maybe this will get us back on the topic at hand at the very least.

Odium:

Yes, first off I'm Muslim.

Secondly, Hitler did have the means, although towards 1944/45, no real way of delivering payloads of bombs to the US or Britain. As I said before:

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OK, despite the fact I seriously doubt the Germans had anything close to an Atomic Bomb near WW2's end, they had done extensive work on long-range bombers as deliverly methods for the proposed German Atomic Bomb (one such craft, a Heinkel He177A was even designed to specifically carry an Atomic Bomb) from as early as 1941 in the "AMERIKABOMBER" project.

Orignally, the German Aeronautical Company, Messerschmitt (who we all know invented the first jet aircraft, the Me262), created the ME264 as the original "AMERIKABOMBER" design. This was a 4-engine powered, long-range heavy bomber, which could carry a 3000kg payload of bombs, at an estimated range 11,000km at an altitude of 16,000m and still have enough capacity to carry 1000kg of armour plating, it also had an elaborate sleeping area and gallery for 2, three-man crews and had 4, 30mm machine gun turrets and 2, 46.7mm cannons as defensive armaments !!! It could also be fitted with 6 solid-fuel rockets to assist take-off in overload conditions (approx. an extra 750kg of weight)! The ME264 was completed by December 1941, and in December 1942 made its first test flight from a Luftwaffe base in Mont de Marsan on the Atlantic Coast of France, from where it approached to within 20km of New York and had enough fuel to reach the harbour and return safely (a flight of approx. 30 hrs! ). Scary stuff, eh?

Other "AMERIKABOMBER" projects such as the Focke-Wulf Ta-400 and the Junkers Ju390 and more were proposed and tested but were scrapped in favour of the ME264. However, by the time the ME264 was ready for mass production in late 1943, the German Industrial Infrastructure was crumbling and many proposed production factories had been destroyed as a result of Allied bombing raids. 2 completed ME264's remain nowadays, one in the Berlin Aeronautics and Maritime Mueseum and another in a war mueseum in St. Petersburg which was captured. Another case of too little, too late for yet another German Secret Weapon

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BTW, it wasn't Werhner Von Braun that stalled the developement of the German Atomic Bomb (he made missiles). Werhner Heisenburg was supposedly against the very idea of the Nazi's having Atomic Bomb, and did try to stall developement.

A few comments to add:

1. The A-9 and A-10, proposed two-stage ICBM's never got past the discussion stage (fanasties considering technology at the time). Also, any of the Ballistic Missiles Germany had couldn't have mounted a Nuclear Warhead on them (V1, V2 and proposed A-5 Missiles only had a 800-900kg Warhead, barely enough for a high-yield Nuclear Device).

2. It was the ME264 which flew within 20km of New York.

(The ME264 was completed by December 1941, and in December 1942 made its first test flight from a Luftwaffe base in Mont de Marsan on the Atlantic Coast of France, from where it approached to within 20km of New York and had enough fuel to reach the harbour and return safely (a flight of approx. 30 hrs! ). Scary stuff, eh?)

3. Other means of delivering missiles to Britain and America and such were researched. Subarmines with towable Missile Launching Pads were tested, the Junkers Ju287, which if the Type II Model had been fully completed would have been the world's first super-sonic jet plane, could carry 3000kg of ordinance and this would have probably been a candidate for carrying an Atomic Bomb. Also when the idea of carrying Atomic Bombs by air was suggested, the Heinkel 177-A5 Heavy Bomber was the original candidate as the German Atomic Bomber. I believe towards the end of the war, one was even completed, specially designed to carry a large amount of ordinance, possibly for an Atomic Bomb.

4. Please read my post before about why Germany couldn't have had an Atomic Bomb, I don't want to repeat myself.

Basically, towards the end of WW2 German lacked:

1. Resources

2. Expertise

3. Infrastructure

4. Security (from advancing Allied Forces)

5. Time


Finally, don't argue anymore people...

[edit on 11/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]

First, as a note, if you read the last section of my post on the German A-bomb topic, you will see that I was not saying that Germany did or didn't have one, I was mearly trying to get everyone back on topic with some new information.

Secondly, I never said that von Braun stalled the A-bomb, just that it was possible he stalled other secret projects including possible delivery methods. And if he stalled projects, it stands to reason others did too.

Third, I would be interested in your source about the Me 264 aproaching New York, as the only things I have found about that refer to Ju 290s or Ju 390s. Not disputing you, I would just appreciate any sources.

Fourth, I did read your post, I read every post, and your thoughts on it are good (again I never said they did). However, the evidence from the u-boat, along with the fact that we still haven't found everything that the Nazi's worked on, or every facility they had, means that there is still a chance, allbeit a very slim one, that they could have.

Just some things to think about, I'm not arguing one way or the other, just posting new stuff in an attempt to get back on topic. If I had to pick a side I would say he didn't have an opperational one or he would have used it, IMHO. If you still feel that you are right and that there is no point to continuing, that is your right, but other people may have differing views and it is their right to post them as well (that is the point of this forum, is it not). So, if the only thing you have left to add is that you are right and that's the end of discussion, please keep that to yourself.

p.s. I don't want this post to be taken wrong by anyone, especially "he Godfather of Conspira", I have a tendancy to come across in a way other than how I intend to (my brain doesn't function properly in that regard). I know what I am trying to say/type. but it doesn't come out how I want it on many occasions.

The Junkers 287 was the forward swept wing idea they had, right?

Even with the proposals they had to hang clusters of jets under the wing (to try and stop it being torn off by the twisting loads any stress would have placed on it) the plane would not have gone supersonic.

The wing was not the correct aerofoil section for a start.

Secondly the Russians captured all that Junkers stuff and after a brief examination dropped all ideas of persueing the project.......which would hardly have been likely if it was genuinely a potential supersonic bomber in 1945.

They had some interesting ideas but one-offs or even few-offs (like the Ju290/390's, or the Me 264, or the Heinkel He277/274 etc etc) are not the basis to fight a World War on......

.....the very idea is laughable, especially when one considers that almost the whole German airforce ended up grounded due to a gross fuel shortage and the few pilots they had left were being needlessly slaughtered and cut to pieces because the allies have total dominance of the air.

Nevermind that German industry had almost no resources, no communications to transport anything and little available manpower to produce all this imagined amazing stuff either.

Germany lost and lost about as completely as it is possible to lose.

There was no ace up their sleeve that almost coulda turned things around blah blah blah.

They tried a 'smash and grab' and because they had given themselves over to be led by the most arrogant of political philosophies (where everyone but they is pretty much worthless and beyond any decent human consideration) they ended up trying to take on the rest of the world, insisting sufficient and effective 'will to win' would only be theirs.

The result was never really in doubt only, the time it would take and the catastrophic suffering that would be inflicted as a result.

SwitchbaldeNGC:

Don't worry first of all, I didn't misinterpret your post. Secondly, the source I got about the ME264 flying within 20km of New York was from the book "Germany's Secret Weapons In WW2" by Roger Ford, who is a very experienced an knowledgeable WW2 Historian. I trust the source as I have read many of his books and his information is consistent with other mainstream sources. Also, there has been a Luftwaffe flight record discovered for a flight in December 1942, the same time the ME264 supposedly flew within 20km of New York, that states that a Heavy-Bomber made a flight from Mont De Marsan, where the ME264 supposedly took off, stating that the Heavy-Bomber approached New York City as part of a test for the "AMERIKABOMBER" project... I will try to find a link to the site where I found this information, feel free to debate...

As for the Junkers Ju287, the forward-swept wing plane, yes, the Russian Forces did capture it in May 1945. Apparently, a number of internet sites confirm this as well as a few books, that the Germans had completed one working prototype, the Junkers Ju287 V-1, and had another in progress, the V-2 prototype, and had plans for the V-3. The Russians tested the V-1 prototype which is supposed to have logged speeds of around 800km/h and the they completed the V-2 prototype from confiscated plans and materials and tested it, and it was supposed to have reached speeds of 1000km/h! Again, I do not know exactly if this is true but some of sources seem reputable, Karl Esserfirsch, German WW2 Historian, several books, Luftwaffe Secret Planes by Ian Van Hogg, and so on. I believe the Ju 287 was capable of reaching speeds of 1000km/h because the foward swept wings allowed it to eliminate the finite speed limit of ordinary wings due to rising drag at the leading edges. Without it's 4000kg payload of bombs it weighed all together 6421kg. Also it was powered by two-twin BMW 018 Jet Engines which produced 4300kg (8480lb) of thrust each and the prototypes were also equipped with solid-fuel rockets to assist with overload take-off and extra speed in the air. These were 6 Jumo KZ 12 Rockets powered by A-Stoff (Liquid Oxygen at -183C) and M-Stoff (Methyl Alcohol), and these rockets themselves were capable of producing 6000kg of static thrust for about 7 minutes themselves, so it is not ridiculous to assume that the Russians tested the V-2 prototype with all 6 Booster Rockets at full power in full-flight. According to my calculations the combined thrust of 10300kg (the rockets lasted for 7 minutes), would have allowed the aircraft to reach an average speed of 277 Metres/sec which equals to about 1100km every hour. Although you would have to consider drag, winds, conditions etc, which would all take a toll on speed. It's possible that the V-2 prototype was capable of super-sonic speeds. The Germans also paid close attention to the planes aero-dynamics such that the wing's joints were filled putty and ply-wood to ensure no gaps in air pressure, plus, the plane itself was lowered on leading edges and the rear stabilising fins to allow air to pass over the plane at full speed. Also it's engines were mounted near the sides of the nose to balance weight across the plane. It was a very slim-line plane, if you've seen a picture of it, I believe I posted one earlier, I will post one again if not, anyway, and considering it's power capabilities, weight, and aero-dynamics there's a good chance the Ju287 was capable of super-sonic speeds. Feel free to debate this issue if you don't believe me.

BTW, we should probably make "German Secret Weapons of WW2 Thread", as this seems to be very popular, and we are getting way off topic.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
BTW, we should probably make "German Secret Weapons of WW2 Thread", as this seems to be very popular, and we are getting way off topic.

Ahead if you on that one: Secret Weapons of WW2


The reason I ask about the source for the New York flight was that my information came from "The Hunt for Zero Point" by Nick Cook (Aviation Editor for Jane's Defence Weekly) and I would assume that a person with that kind of tie to the industry would be able to have accurate information.

Here's another article I found on this. news.bbc.co.uk...

Just so that people are clear:

I started this thread because I found an interesting story on the net about the possibility of a nazi a-bomb. I thought that ATSers would be interested in the subject. I NEVER intended this thread to be a vehicle for holocaust denial.... nor did I think I would attract people who want to blast anyone who dares to look at the official allied records concerning the people who were killed in the holocaust.

In short, I did not start a thread that had any political or ethnic agenda as its motivation. I just want you all to know that I was simply interested in the technical and military issues involved.

That being said....... I'd like to return to the point of this thread. Basically, though I still agree with the basic concept of what happend 50+ years ago, I can't help but point out that arguments that go along the line of "Hitler didn't have the bomb because there is no evidence for it" and "It didn't happen because a book I read twenty years ago said it didn't" have little value if the people who have spouted these opinions are ignoring the data that the author of this German book claims to have.

Why? Because it is ignorant to say that there is no evidence for some controversial event at the same time that such evidence is being ignored. Until the book is published and we ALL can look at the soil sample data NONE of our opinions matter. If these islands in the Baltic are radioactive... well... guess what? It's time to consider the impossible (BTW, for a bunch of supposed conspiracists and independant researchers you guys sure do base the whole farm on official proclamations).

Also... the argument that Hitler would have dropped his test bomb on London is bunk. No one uses a test item in actual combat. The US tested its A-bomb in New Mexico before it dropped two bombs on Japan. If Hitler had the bomb he would have dropped it at a test range first. Even if he had an actual bomb I doubt he would have wasted it on an already bombed out city like London. The greater threat would have been to threaten New York, Boston, or Washington DC with a bomb onboard a submarine (and for the 'experts' who didn't undertstand my previous statements, I wasn't talking about a cruise missile.... the sub, itself, could have been exploded IN HARBOR).

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams


Also... the argument that Hitler would have dropped his test bomb on London is bunk. No one uses a test item in actual combat. The US tested its A-bomb in New Mexico before it dropped two bombs on Japan.

Not entirely true, the bombs dropped on Japan were of 2 different types. Fat Man ( Nagasaki ) was a plutonium implosion device which was the same as the test Alamagordo. However Little Boy ( Hiroshima ) was a uranium gun device which was never tested before it was used in anger. The reason being that the scientsits had overengineered it so much that they were positive of a successful detonation.

It stands to reason that the Germans wouldn't have had a plutonium implosion device as they simply didn't have any working reacors and even if they did they would have had to have been on the scale of the US plants such as Hanford. Something which would be impossible to cover up.
Therefore any fissile material used for a bomb would have to be enriched uranium. So if the Germans took the same path as the US they could have used a uranium gun device in anger without testing it. Bearing in mind that at this time fissile materials were extremely rare, testing 2 bombs would exhaust all their stocks. So if they did build them, they would surely use them without testing. Or if they had tested them why not give the allies a demonstration test, say on the eastern front.

If you are intersted in readin some more about this, there is a great book called The Nuclear Axis dealing with the German and Japanese programs.

There is also an interesting declassified report from a USAAF recon plane witnessing a massive explosion in Germany with a msuhroom cloud rising to 15-20 000 feet. The report goes on to say that lightning could be seen within the cloud. Nuclear detonation or not ? Who knows - but this was meant to have occurred in mainland Germany in 1944.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by rogue1]

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Just so that people are clear:

I started this thread because I found an interesting story on the net about the possibility of a nazi a-bomb. I thought that ATSers would be interested in the subject. I NEVER intended this thread to be a vehicle for holocaust denial.... nor did I think I would attract people who want to blast anyone who dares to look at the official allied records concerning the people who were killed in the holocaust.

In short, I did not start a thread that had any political or ethnic agenda as its motivation. I just want you all to know that I was simply interested in the technical and military issues involved.

That being said....... I'd like to return to the point of this thread. Basically, though I still agree with the basic concept of what happend 50+ years ago, I can't help but point out that arguments that go along the line of "Hitler didn't have the bomb because there is no evidence for it" and "It didn't happen because a book I read twenty years ago said it didn't" have little value if the people who have spouted these opinions are ignoring the data that the author of this German book claims to have.

Why? Because it is ignorant to say that there is no evidence for some controversial event at the same time that such evidence is being ignored. Until the book is published and we ALL can look at the soil sample data NONE of our opinions matter. If these islands in the Baltic are radioactive... well... guess what? It's time to consider the impossible (BTW, for a bunch of supposed conspiracists and independant researchers you guys sure do base the whole farm on official proclamations).

Also... the argument that Hitler would have dropped his test bomb on London is bunk. No one uses a test item in actual combat. The US tested its A-bomb in New Mexico before it dropped two bombs on Japan. If Hitler had the bomb he would have dropped it at a test range first. Even if he had an actual bomb I doubt he would have wasted it on an already bombed out city like London. The greater threat would have been to threaten New York, Boston, or Washington DC with a bomb onboard a submarine (and for the 'experts' who didn't undertstand my previous statements, I wasn't talking about a cruise missile.... the sub, itself, could have been exploded IN HARBOR).

Actually I thought we've done quite well at getting back on topic since March 10th, and I agree, we shouldn't take what one person has to say or what the "official" story is right out (which, I'm sorry to say, goes for the book you comment on as well). We should collect the evidence found in those books and sources and evidence from other sources and come to our own conclusions. The soil data may have been doctored or even if it wasn't there may be other reasons for it's radioactivity. I know they were working on it at one point in time, that is not debatable, my question is, if they had it why didn't they use it.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
SwitchbaldeNGC:

Don't worry first of all, I didn't misinterpret your post. Secondly, the source I got about the ME264 flying within 20km of New York was from the book "Germany's Secret Weapons In WW2" by Roger Ford, who is a very experienced an knowledgeable WW2 Historian. I trust the source as I have read many of his books and his information is consistent with other mainstream sources. Also, there has been a Luftwaffe flight record discovered for a flight in December 1942, the same time the ME264 supposedly flew within 20km of New York, that states that a Heavy-Bomber made a flight from Mont De Marsan, where the ME264 supposedly took off, stating that the Heavy-Bomber approached New York City as part of a test for the "AMERIKABOMBER" project... I will try to find a link to the site where I found this information, feel free to debate...

The first prototype of the Me264 was flown in December 1942, however it doesn't state that this first flight was the one which approached to within 20 km of New York.
Good Book secret weapons of WW2, I have it on pdf (7Mb) if anyone wnats a copy u2u me.

switchblade,

To further clarify my position:
I think that the official allied position is the correct one. I was trying to be diplomatic by mentioning that alternate theories could be true, as well. We reallu do have to wait for that data from the island in the baltics before we can form a final opinion.

As for other things....

Hitler might not have dropped a working atomic bomb if.... gulp... he had a moment of conscience.... or if he remembered what it was like to be a soldier blinded by chemical weapons in WW1. Hell... he may HAVE launched atomic weapons at London in WW2... only to find out that they didn't work (that is, they just crashed like normal bombs).

My point, in this thread, IS NOT that there is clear evidence for a nazi atomic bomb. I am also not trying to argue that hitler actually tried to use these things. My point is that if the raw data points to atomic detonations in central europe in the 1940s that we HAVE to rethink our history.

So far as I am concerned, arguments along the line of "My official USAAF history book says, clearly, that no atom bombs existed in 1944" do NOT matter. Only the raw, physical data is what counts. If the claims of this author are true then we DO have a story on our hands. So far, though, I've only witnessed 1)people debating the holocaust and 2) people reciting official history on this thread.

I have yet TO SEE ANYONE discuss the merits of this German guy's evidence.

onlyinmydreams:

I agree with what your saying too, but unless we actually find a copy Karlsch's book or any other evidence, the only raw data we really have is that the Nazi's might have tested an Atomic Weapon on Ruegen or Thuringia during the closing days of the war. That is insufficient, and while you are free to express your opinion, we need to gather more evidence on this topic.

BTW, yes I also agree, that we have done a good job getting back on track, and that we need to continue researching this further. Remember, that the whole "Holocaust" arguement was started by you GrOuNdZeRo, so don't forget...

www.smh.com.au...

Just found that site, it contains a bit more information on what we already have read...

I'm going to see if "Hitler's Bombe" the book, is available in English.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
onlyinmydreams:

I agree with what your saying too, but unless we actually find a copy Karlsch's book or any other evidence, the only raw data we really have is that the Nazi's might have tested an Atomic Weapon on Ruegen or Thuringia during the closing days of the war. That is insufficient, and while you are free to express your opinion, we need to gather more evidence on this topic.

I'm not sure where Reugen is but I can say that a test in Thuringia in the Harz mountains would have been far from going unnoticed. Actually it would have been impossible, especially as the radiation would easily be picked up, if not after the war then definately during the Cold war.