Mourning the Death of Democracy in the UK

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: gortex


I'm guessing you're a Remainer.

I am not even a Brit. I am an American. I did enjoy the weakening British Pound though while visiting London this summer.

You failed to answer my question.

When this scenario repeats itself in the future to execute an agenda you oppose, will you still believe this sacrifice a good price to pay to get what you wanted?

I didn't answer it because

I didn't ask you a question?

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Extorris

Any case should be judged on its merits , Parliament isn't a sacred beast nor is it always right.

The people said No to Iraq but Parliament disagreed , we were right then and I believe we are right now.

Believing something is right or not is different than believing the means to achieve those goals are acceptable.

Any compromises of the democratic process that are tolerated now "in the name of a greater good" will be repeated from now forward. That is precisely how democracies erode.

a reply to: Extorris

If employing dishonest/exotic/irregular/unprecedented maneuvers to circumvent and strip other branches of government of their established balance of powers is accepted once under any conditions, then it will be repeated in the near future.

But why is this happening? The idea that people are devoid of critical thinking and unable to recognize differences and nuance in things is tired and worn. It's like when they told us if trump declares a state of emergency on the border then dems will do it on gun control. One is a constitutionally guaranteed right, the other is an actual problem that is having extremely negative effects on america and the current laws are not being followed.

Furthermore, if boris has the power to do this, then it doesn't matter if it's exotic irregular or unprecedented. Dictatorships don't begin because someone exercised power they were given. They begin when people take power they don't have and no one stops them (like the FBI and FISA courts here in the US).

If the "will of the people" is to have an exit from the EU (deal, no deal, whatever) fine, but they need to first vote affirming they choose a system of government that allows the Prime Minister to suspend parliament in order to execute his/her will.

So does boris not have this power to suspend parliament? If not then why would they listen to his suspension?

"But it is justified this time" does not work in democracies.

Democracies don't really work anyway.

If we are to govern by Polls

We're not. Polls do not give everyone a chance to respond. They pick their sample. That's not democracy.

If you choose both, you forfeit your right to oppose the maneuver in the future regarding agenda's you oppose.

*In circumstances where parliament is trying to stop the will of the people from being implemented.
See you can't remove the circumstances. Exercising a power once due to extenuating circumstances does not mean that power should or will be used under regular circumstances. If parliament would simply get on board with pursuing the will of the people, there would be no need for this maneuver. If in the future they again try to thwart the will of the people these means will be used, yes. Is that really a bad thing? To suspend a branch of government that is trying to subvert the people they claim to represent?

The end does not justify the means. Long after the debate on Brexit has passed, this maneuver will continue to be employed.

It will only be legitimate in cases where parliament is ignoring their own people.

"Give me unopposed power now, let me suspend our democracy just this once and I will give you what you want."

This is what has to happen and it's not unprecedented. I believe it was marcus aurelius who did similar things for rome. It was the golden age of rome. He took dictatorial powers to achieve the will of the people on multiple occasions and always ceded that power back. You still have a queen, you should recognize the advantages that a monarchy provides. Democracy is gridlock and 95% of the time that's great. But 5% of the time you have to actually get something done that the gridlock prevents from getting done.

It is ALWAYS a leader claiming to do the people's will when they suspend the normal functions of a democracy.

But you can tell the difference, right? I mean he is actually just trying to implement the will of the people he's not trying to sieze power. It's pretty obvious. Here's a little litmus test. If tomorrow parliament said they were on board with brexit and would agree to a deal (or no deal) by the set deadline, would boris suspend parliament?

the question is NOT "is it the will of the people?"...the question is "do we want a democracy in the future where the PM is afforded this power?"

No, the question is; will democracy be listened to or ignored in the future? If parliament gets their way it will be ignored. If boris gets his way it will be listened to. So do you want democracy or not?

The hyperbole of "democracy in danger" is a little misleading on both sides.
Cameron's referendum has created an abnormal situation in which there is conflict between different ways of expressing democracy.
The referendum is one way.
The House of Commons is another way.
A General Election is a third way and could have offered a casting vote- May's failed in that respect because it was run on party terms rather than pro- and anti- Brexit terms. Remainers are now against one because they think it would be a casting vote on the wrong side. As for the voters, they find their part in democracy a pain in the neck, would rather not be bothered more than it can be helped, and punished May for calling them out again without any real need.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the different versions of democracy, I think Boris is right to see that following Brexit through has a better chance of resolving the crisis than not following it through.

Nobody should try offering a referendum again without incorporating a way of enforcing the result, and so avoiding this kind of mess.

I am sick and tired of this Parliament. The recent action of refusing to back a GE whilst taking no deal of the table is effectively forcing the people to accept the backstop and eventually a customs union (we all know that’s what they want) is nothing short of traitorous to the public.

It’s time the people in this country took a stand by whatever means necessary

Boris is a God damn embarrassment.
What goes around comes straight back around.
Karma in her full, glorious, action.

I was greatly offended when he lied about what "Porton Down had told him" about the "Russian poison" without any ramifications.

Eat it, you #ing scum #er!

originally posted by: JPtruther
It’s time the people in this country took a stand by whatever means necessary

A March on Westminster, French Revolution style?
Lynch the whole lot of 'em, no discrimination?

I'm in!

originally posted by: Dfairlite
So does boris not have this power to suspend parliament? If not then why would they listen to his suspension?

Boris, as the Prime inister can suspend Parliamnt when he likes. It's not unusual and is actually part of business to end a Parliamentary Session. The MPs are making a fuss of this because they will make political capital out of it.

originally posted by: JPtruther
I am sick and tired of this Parliament. The recent action of refusing to back a GE whilst taking no deal of the table is effectively forcing the people to accept the backstop and eventually a customs union (we all know that’s what they want) is nothing short of traitorous to the public.

It’s time the people in this country took a stand by whatever means necessary

There are still many scenarios.

1) Extension until Jan 2020, but prior to the new extended data there is a GE, Conservatives get the majority they need. Make no deal option law again, negotiate with the EU on the basis we are leaving on at the end of Jan no matter what.

2) Parliament call a no confidence vote as soon as they are back in session - OCT 14th. They WILL succeed in winning that as they have the votes, A new PM takes control (probably Corbyn)... Before calling an election, Corbyn has a second referendum. There is also the possibility he will not give up power if he can hold the current anti-Conservative coalition in Parliament. If it's vote leave again, Corbyn will get through a deal that keeps us tied to the EU with no ability to negotiate any trade deals with other countries and we'll be fully tied to the Customs Union - permanently.

I think these are the most likely 2 paths, but there are many more...