Brexit and the Deal We Were Promised.

originally posted by: UKTruth

Fella - as I said we import over £50bn a year more from the EU than we export to the entire EU.

The Eu needs to be told to take a hike.

Good grief.......... You know we can't do that. Well we can do, but as a fellow Midlander you must be aware of what that will do to the heart of industrial Britain? We gonna be up that creek without a paddle............... 70% of our car parts come from the EU and you want to tell them to take a hike? Lol................... The Midlands will be devastated if we don't play this careful and you know it

a reply to: uncommitted

You have absolutely every right to an opinion and I one hundred percent respect that - and whilst I may at times disagree with your own opinions I do however have regard for them as they are usually considered and reasoned.

But 'disingenuous' implies a certain amount of dishonesty, duplicity and insincerity on my behalf and I vehemently disagree with that and know that it's absolute bollocks.

Make of that what you will, I can not be any clearer.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: uncommitted

You have absolutely every right to an opinion and I one hundred percent respect that - and whilst I may at times disagree with your own opinions I do however have regard for them as they are usually considered and reasoned.

But 'disingenuous' implies a certain amount of dishonesty, duplicity and insincerity on my behalf and I vehemently disagree with that and know that it's absolute bollocks.

Make of that what you will, I can not be any clearer.

The respect is 100% reciprocated, but to suggest the EU is bullying and uncompromising while not acknowledging the UK has been the same is exactly as I suggest.

Sorry, but it's selective describing the issue which is based on how you want it to be expressed. Did May not stand by her red lines throughout the her tenure and therefore was the opposite of compromising?

a reply to: uncommitted

All is good.

I wouldn't describe the UK's previous negotiating tactics as bullying, more like criminally incompetent.

Now we have that idiot charging in like a bull in a china shop with his last minute about face stonewalling.
Its gone from one extreme to another and all it does is play into the belligerent and uncompromising hands of the EU.

As for May and her red lines; that was the start of the problem......for far too long we had absolutely no red lines, no anything.
When we eventually entered into discussion with the EU there was no coherent negotiating strategy with previously agreed areas of compromise and red lines etc. We entered those talks with a blank piece of paper allowing the EU to take the upper hand and to dictate the very nature of the so called negotiations.

May allowed the country to drift along aimlessly for over a year instead of aligning policy and getting all our ducks in a row prior to any talks.
Some suspect this was by design, others think it was naivety and wishful thinking.
Me, I'm not too sure but in the end it certainly resulted in criminal ineptitude.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: JustJohnny

The only thing relevant legally is the wording of the vote..

If it was simply worded “leave or don’t leave”.. that is that, legally..

It was an advisory vote, it was not legally binding.

Other side of the coin again... Get over it, seriously, we are leaving

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: UKTruth

If you put yourselves in their shoes we are a peripheral island and one that never really got fully involved in integration which does take plenty of the mainlads products sure, but by giving too much away all the other parts of the EU are going to want a similar deal. Brussels really have to play it careful if they don't want the whole EU to unravel regardless of trade surpluses or not, the whole thing could fall apart like the USSR did. They are treading with care and fear at the same time

Fella - as I said we import over £50bn a year more from the EU than we export to the entire EU.
Not really peripheral, more integral. The Eu has a lot more to lose and that is why they are trying to stop Brexit from happening, either by pressuring the UK govt to ignore democracy or by offering a crap deal that is completely one sided towards them.
The Eu needs to be told to take a hike. They are 100% being more obstinate in the negotiations.

About 45% of UK exports go to EU.

About 15% EU exports go to UK.

Quoting £50 billion isn't very informative given relative size sof the economies.

originally posted by: JPtruther

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: JustJohnny

The only thing relevant legally is the wording of the vote..

If it was simply worded “leave or don’t leave”.. that is that, legally..

It was an advisory vote, it was not legally binding.

Other side of the coin again... Get over it, seriously, we are leaving

I think that this post epitomises sometimes what is wrong with the debate.

Leave or Remain the fact is it was never a legally binding vote, that isn't taking a side its just pointing out a fact, likewise its just pointing out a fact to highlight that the VoteLeave campaign did talk about a deal rather a lot during the campaign with them saying there would be a UK/EU Treaty by May 2020. That is not taking a side its just simply pointing out a fact.

I am not misrepresenting it nor am I framing any of this as a remain/leave argument rather just informing the debate.

Sometimes, it can feel like the facts are bias against your side.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The govt. invoked article 50, so whether the vote was legally binding or not is irrelevant.
The law of the land as of now is that we leave on Oct. 31st.
It's also not May 2020 yet, by the way. We have time after we leave to negotiate a treaty.

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The govt. invoked article 50, so whether the vote was legally binding or not is irrelevant.
The law of the land as of now is that we leave on Oct. 31st.
It's also not May 2020 yet, by the way. We have time after we leave to negotiate a treaty.

Agreed, all parties said at the time they would adhere to the public vote so thats what's happening and I for one have made peace with it.

I also don't think though that its realistic that we are going to have that treaty in place by May 2020. I mean if they can hash it all out in 6 months I will gladly come back to this thread so you can say that you told me so but I really don't think they will be able to do it.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

About 45% of UK exports go to EU.

About 15% EU exports go to UK.

Quoting £50 billion isn't very informative given relative size sof the economies.

Exactly ScepticScot

In addition to which Germany the powerhouse of the Continent has seen exports to China growing at an astronomical rate, sendng BMW's and Mercedes etc to a market that is 25 times the size of Britain's

Just remembered for you UK folks that travel in the Schengen Area still remains the same (just no unlimited stays allowed)...

So, still no visas required to 26 European states..

So, not really much of a change there...

originally posted by: AnakinWayneII
Just remembered for you UK folks that travel in the Schengen Area still remains the same (just no unlimited stays allowed)...

So, still no visas required to 26 European states..

So, not really much of a change there...

In the event of a no deal exit quite a lot could change when traveling in the EU.

www.gov.uk...

We can argue about Brexit and its pro's and con's till the cows come home - lets face it, many of us have.
But all our bickering, discussions and debating won't change a thing.

All I see here on ATS and in real life as I discuss Brexit with people is people who are all passionate about what they think and about what they think is the nations best interests.
Very few of us, if any, have any hidden agenda's or seek personal gain or advancement from this fiasco.
We all genuinely want what we think is best for this country and its people.

I'm absolutely certain that if left to us we'd come to a reasonable compromise and be able to negotiate a deal with everyday, ordinary EU nationals.

We all know who is getting in the way of that be they Brexiteers, Remainers or EU bureaucrats.

They are who we should direct our anger towards and they are the problem we need to eradicate.

Accomplish that then I suspect this would all be a moot point.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: AnakinWayneII
Just remembered for you UK folks that travel in the Schengen Area still remains the same (just no unlimited stays allowed)...

So, still no visas required to 26 European states..

So, not really much of a change there...

In the event of a no deal exit quite a lot could change when traveling in the EU.

www.gov.uk...

Except it has already been agreed, whether there is a deal or not, that visa-free travel will still continue in the Schengen Area for Brits.


European Union – Visa-Free Travel to Schengen Area Post

originally posted by: AnakinWayneII

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: AnakinWayneII
Just remembered for you UK folks that travel in the Schengen Area still remains the same (just no unlimited stays allowed)...

So, still no visas required to 26 European states..

So, not really much of a change there...

In the event of a no deal exit quite a lot could change when traveling in the EU.

www.gov.uk...

Except it has already been agreed, whether there is a deal or not, that visa-free travel will still continue in the Schengen Area for Brits.


European Union – Visa-Free Travel to Schengen Area Post

The limited visa free travel is only one part of it.

As detailed in the link i provided there will potentially be significant changes to travel in the EU post brexit.

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
My point however stands regarding the fact that a deal was actually what was promised.

Flawed argument. What was promised is not necessarily what people voted on. They vote on what's on the ballot, not written on the tenth page of some website.

In any case, the former Prime Minister did a terrible job negotiating with the EU. Parliament made the right call voting it down.

Did he vote down what the popular vote originally was.

Britain wants its independence and can no longer hold the hands of smaller EU countries.

Time for them to start talking responsibility for their decisions.

a reply to: Bloodworth

is exactly the cries echoing from up north of the UK

see that its good for the goose but no the gander

Putting aside the details and blame game of Brexit

It's proven very complicated indeed to untangle the UK from the EU.

So, just imagine how much more complicated it would be in 5 years; in 10 or 20 years. Perhaps impossible.

Does the UK want to be enmeshed within the web of the EU forever?

Of course some will. But some won't like the idea of 'forever.

Others may say that it doesn't mean forever... Well, as i said, if it's difficult now, it's only going to get more difficult.

Sometimes you don't know you're a prisoner until you try to leave.