The Golden Ratio - Evidence of God

I recently watched a video on the golden ratio which has to do with a sequence of numbers. This sequence is seen a lot in nature because of the way cells grow and divide. It turns out as things grown the cell counts follow a Fibonacci sequence. Things express a kind of fractal image in nature. An example is a tree. As the branches grow the smaller branches look like a miniature version of the whole thing. This a very popular aesthetic for most people because it expresses a kind of natural recursion we see in nature.

So the question what does this mean. It is somewhat surprising how nature is relentless is following patterns that can be represented with mathematics. This has always astonished me how consistent nature can be. And there are two camps in response to how nature behaves.

One side, the philosophical materialists conclude since nature follows patterns that can be represented, therefore, there is no God but just mathematics. I don't see how they can make such an enormous leap. Even further they claim because nature's patterns of behavior can be represented with mathematics there's no grand purpose to the existence of the Universe. Again, I don't see the connection or how someone can come to this conclusion.

And on the other side is the creationists. This is the opinion or point of view expressed in the referenced video below. This camp makes the argument since nature consistently follows patterns that can be represented that this is evidence of some grand conspiracy and this is proof for the existence of a grand intelligence in the Universe which is God. Again, I think this is also a huge leap to come to this conclusion because as far as I can tell it's just a pattern of behavior. I'm not sure it really means much.



I would like to suggest there is a third possibility. This third possibility does not support either camp or way of thinking so relax if you feel your dogma is under attack. I was just thinking how strange our Universe is in terms of how everything is NOT more symmetrical and geometric. If fact there's probably not two perfectly straight parallel lines anywhere on the planet. Nature has this amazing ability to introduce originality or variability to how things behave in very subtle ways.

I like to think of this third way of thinking about nature as kind of like a rogue wave. Google rogue waves if you are not familiar with the concept they are quite spectacular. I think everything in nature is analog with waves of energy bouncing every which way and in every direction. At any scale of existence waves of energy sometimes converge in such a way it results in disturbances in reality at the higher or lower scale of focus. This results is all kinds of unimaginable consequences at the macro level we experience.

I think for the two camps defending their precious dogmas there needs to be some humility. On the philosophical materialists side just because you have a mathematical equation representing nature's behaviors doesn't mean anything. You can't conclude you "know" anything about nature simply by putting mathematics to a pattern. If you really want to impress people then explain why the laws of physics show up in nature. What is IT that governs the laws. Otherwise, humble yourself. You are just a glorified number cruncher and nothing more. And given the way nature really behaves in reality we do NOT live in a clockwork Universe with hard determinism. Unless you can predict experimental error you really do not understand what is going on completely and accurately.

And on the other side, for the creationists, the Universe is not governed by perfection. I would argue we live in Universe governed by imperfection. As what always seems to be the case. We have absolutely no evidence, not a single shred, a majority of the people would consider is valid evidence for the existence of God. Stop reaching for something that doesn't exist. People have faith precisely because there is no evidence. The only credible evidence I can see for the existence of God is ALL of existence. As far as I can tell God is choice not based on reason. If God were choice based on reason then it would not be a choice but a decision. If creationists are looking for some magical way to turn their faith from a choice to a decision I don't think it will ever exist.

I think the best definition for the word God is God is the force in our Universe that keeps our full understanding of nature's behaviors always just one step beyond our comprehension.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Good thaughts thank you.

I don't think god is an entity or consciousness that exists separate from ones consciousness.
God is such a Human concept I'm inclined to think that you are god.

Both camp's are always one step behind in understanding their theory because both try to explain it through observing the world outside.
It all starts inside, the day we take dreams, Hallucinations, channeling, OOBE, and so on serious we will catch up, scientifically and spiritually.

Sincerely NoClue

Why do you even need evidence for god?

I mean, why even bother presenting self evident claims?

a reply to: Homefree

I love that movie!

originally posted by: sunkuong
Why do you even need evidence for god?

I mean, why even bother presenting self evident claims?

Probably because anyone who dares to think outside what "science" tells them is told to "prove it"

Can't blame people for trying if you're going to ask them to try.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I think the best definition for the word God is God is the force in our Universe that keeps our full understanding of nature's behaviors always just one step beyond our comprehension.

And because its always 1 step ahead of us and we are fallen gods, we shall always seek, like in Eden, we will taste all of creation and if this petty demiurge pretender god gets upset well bad luck.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I feel it's just evidence of an underpattern, written in mathematics, the same language everything else around us is written in.

originally posted by: hombero
a reply to: dfnj2015

I feel it's just evidence of an underpattern, written in mathematics, the same language everything else around us is written in.

So God is a mathematician.

I recently watched a video on the golden ratio which has to do with a sequence of numbers

First off:
...there is a lot more to the "golden ratio" then just
"a sequence of numbers"

Second: this comes from a relatively new theory called "emergence theory"
Proposed by the los Angeles Quantum Gravity research team.

It's actually a pretty interesting theory

Here is a link to the "official film"
youtu.be...

So the question what does this mean. It is somewhat surprising how nature is relentless is following patterns that can be represented with mathematics. This has always astonished me how consistent nature can be.

???

because as far as I can tell it's just a pattern of behavior. I'm not sure it really means much. 

???

So? Which is it then? Astonishing
Or doesn't really mean that much?

I assure you it is much more then just "a pattern of behavior"

This camp makes the argument since nature consistently follows patterns that can be represented that this is evidence of some grand conspiracy and this is proof for the existence of a grand intelligence in the Universe which is God.

Now I can't speak for the makers of that video, because i didn't watch it, but I highly doubt that is the only argument for all creationist and is the only reasoning they can come up with on the subject

I like to think of this third way of thinking about nature as kind of like a rogue wave. Google rogue waves if you are not familiar with the concept they are quite spectacular. I think everything in nature is analog with waves of energy bouncing every which way and in every direction. At any scale of existence waves of energy sometimes converge in such a way it results in disturbances in reality at the higher or lower scale of focus. This results is all kinds of unimaginable consequences at the macro level we experience. 

WOW!! Look out Stephen Hawkins.
I think this guy figured out the theory of everything lmfao

My question is how does either camp or your "3rd way" prove or disprove the existence of GOD?

You can't no matter how much humans try to prove GOD doesn't exist they can't because you don't even have the slightest friction of an idea of what GOD even is. Or how the universe or multiverse started all the questions out there that the brightness minds seek to find the answers too every time they figure out something or discover something it only brings more questions to the table

People have faith precisely because there is no evidence. 

There is alot of evidence just look around you.
And stop trying to think and speak for people you don't know why someone has faith

The only credible evidence I can see for the existence of God is ALL of existence.

Which should be enough you would think

As far as I can tell God is choice not based on reason. If God were choice based on reason then it would not be a choice but a decision.

How could it be based on reason? Or you mean logical? Or scientific facts? mathematical facts?? Or just common sense?

You can't say there is no reason behind someones beliefs or faiths just because they cant be explained away


This whole thread was not very well thought out or articulated

If your going to speak on such complex matters as these then at least have some kind of intellectual thought process

Not all creationists think and believe the same ways not all Christians think and believe the same ways not all atheist think and believe the same ways

What if the "golden ratio" was GOD is GOD
what if GOD was NOT a man NOT a spiritual entity.
But a whole collective consciousness everywhere in everything
Just like the golden ratio is
But that dosen't mean that GOD doesn't exist

We created ourselves in the future

And we are on this endless feedback loop eternally and infinitely

In my opinion.
It seems like to many people think that if you believe in GOD that you automatically have to be a...
Christian or
Islamic or
Jewish

You absolutely do not have to be part of an organization religious group to believe in GOD and even Jesus


Come on people wake up

a reply to: DustybudzZ

You want to se me a bizarre use of the Fibonacci sequence, the sequence that coincides with the Golden Ratio?
Well here it is:

Fibonacci sequence Using Digital sums, so reducing any 2 digit number to one number by adding the two digits together. 12 = 1+2 = 3 so 12 = 3

Think of this a a spreadsheet it’s columns and rows.
This Fibonacci sequence moves down not across. However the crossing sequences are fascinating. With 417 528 and of course the 9 8s

111111111(Start with 9 1s)
123456789( And 1-9 sequence)
234567891 (Add top row to bottom row)
357924681 (reduce digit sums and continue.....)
582582582
849516273
432198765
372615948
714714714
186429753
891234567
987654321
888888888
876543219
765432198
642975318
417417417
159483726
567891234
627384951
285285285
813579246
198765432
912345678
111111111
123456789

This pattern would repeat for infinity

Imagine this wrapped around a wheel. Connecting at the 111111111

Also imagine this sequence twisting to form like a DNA sequence.

a reply to: DustybudzZ

You absolutely do not have to be part of an organization religious group to believe in GOD and even Jesus

This is very true, but what if you have to align yourself with a group to survive the final judgment, like Noah and his family getting on a ark just before the world had a flood. People back then new about God and believed in him, but if they never got on that ark they died just the same.

a reply to: dfnj2015

We have absolutely no evidence, not a single shred, a majority of the people would consider is valid evidence for the existence of God. Stop reaching for something that doesn't exist. People have faith precisely because there is no evidence. The only credible evidence I can see for the existence of God is ALL of existence. As far as I can tell God is choice not based on reason. If God were choice based on reason then it would not be a choice but a decision. If creationists are looking for some magical way to turn their faith from a choice to a decision I don't think it will ever exist. Text

I cannot agree with your philosophy at all. We have much evidence of a Creator but no substantial physical proof of a Creator. Back up and rethink what you have written. We have hundreds of written testimonies of witnesses of the events of a Creator from all sorts of cultures and religions. In fact so much [I believe] that if you lived 500 years you could never read them all

Regardless of this evidence there is no satisfactory presentation of a proof to everyone. I believe that would be the case in this discussion. Of those many sources of testimonies comes many different opinions from many assorted people that choose various testimonies to believe. That is considered faith in whatsoever you read and believe. So in all reality it boils down to choice or freedom to choose and practice that choice..

Even if there was a physicality such as the black rock of Islam does not mean that it is proof to all who see this black rock.
The very same as Gan Eden was to Adams sons. Adam taught this Gan Eden to all of his sons and grandsons up to Noah as though it was proof of a Creator but that means nothing today to the millions who will not believe that a Gan Eden ever existed.

The same as when Moses presented his book to each and every tribe of the Hebrews. It meant nothing to many of that day and to most people today. Then we have the letters of the Apostles and disciples and hundreds of historical papers of the church fathers but that evidence means nothing except evidence or choice without substantial proof.

Tell me now, just what proof can be presented to this world that this universe was created and that proof be for all people till the end time? Or tell me what proof can be presented to all people that will prove that this universe is a matter of happening and evolution from that happening? Ether way is impossible without mind control. Isn't that why Jesus taught that we are saved from destruction by faith in His teachings?

a reply to: dfnj2015

Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made.

a reply to: StallionDuck

God can do mathematics with a phalange with his eyes closed.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Kinda my point.

I would imagine that an omnipotent being with all power and all knowledge, creating order out of chaos, would have a schematic of sorts to make it all happen. Hence maths exists.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I would argue we live in Universe governed by imperfection.

If the universe weren't perfect we wouldn't exist.

You're making an assumption that the universe isn't here for our existence.
But you can't prove that it isn't. In fact you can't even prove that humans
couldn't exist without the universe.

I can assert that the universe only exists that we may exist. But I can't
prove that either. And I can't prove that humans could exist with out
the universe.

But the universe does exist and so do we with'in it's capture. And if I
am correct as an infinite number of incalculable odds suggest in
the face of your speculations.

Then the universe is unquestionably perfect for a sentient being of
obviously great importance to exist. As well as the solar system, our
planet, our atmosphere, the environment and on and on.

Feel free to attack dogma all you want who ever cries is a baby.
.