Reports alleging China is bringing in military to Hong Kong border

Honestly, there are far too many westerners living, working and owning businesses in Hong Kong for the Chinese military to invoke another Tiananmen.

Many of the protesters and citizens are of western descent and keeping those deaths a secret would be an ipossible task for the communist government to keep quiet.

If China does go ahead with an attack, western deaths would be inevetable and that won't do the Chinese government any favors as many nations would retaliate in one way or another..!!

China stands to lose everything if the SHTF in HongKong...!!

a reply to: Ironclad1964

True, but you assuming they care about the deaths.

I agree with you though they have zero to gain and everything to loose. If the violently put this down, they gut Hong Kong and alot of foreign investment. If they do nothing, the protests could spread and threaten their power.

So backed into a corner like an animal, its going to react instinctively and put this down and put it down hard to show the domestic population who is boss. Lets face it nothing really negative happened to them after Tienanmen than could not be overcome

a reply to: muzzleflash

Hong Kong is Chinese, any action in Hong Kong would necessitate a full scale war with China.

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: muzzleflash

Hong Kong is Chinese, any action in Hong Kong would necessitate a full scale war with China.

No we already determined that is untrue.

Hong Kong is not Chinese.
It's autonomous.

originally posted by: muzzleflash

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: muzzleflash

Hong Kong is Chinese, any action in Hong Kong would necessitate a full scale war with China.

No we already determined that is untrue.

Hong Kong is not Chinese.
It's autonomous.

So was Kashmir until very recently. Do you know how autonomy works? Hong Kong would be an independent sovereign state if it wasn't autonomous.

Northern Ireland is an autonomous part of the United Kingdom, that doesn't stop Westminster's capabilities of enforcing direct rule on them.

Hong Kong is Chinese my nation gave them sovereignty over it.

The Handover - wiki

The transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong,[1][2][3] commonly known as the handover of Hong Kong (or simply the Handover, also the Return in Communist China and Communist Hong Kong governments), occurred at midnight on 1 July 1997, when the United Kingdom ended administration for the colony of Hong Kong and passed control of the territory to China. Hong Kong became a special administrative region and continues to maintain governing and economic systems separate from those of mainland China.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
Hong Kong is not Chinese.
It's autonomous.

Autonomy is not independence.

The Azores are autonomous but they are part of Portugal.
Spanish regions like Catalonia and the Basque Country are autonomous but they part of Spain.

a reply to: RAY1990

That's not how "law" works. Law is based on using words to convince people of certain things. There is no "reality" in law, it's all fiction and basically you just believe whatever story sounds best.

Because HK is in a "gray area" of "autonomy", and is "transitional", than I am at complete liberty to use legal language to paint this picture the way I want to see it. And that's completely legitimate in "law". If it weren't legitimate, than we wouldn't have lawyers arguing multiple "views" and having a judge make "decisions" on what side of the story he believes the most. Also we wouldn't have appeals and higher courts, challenges and objections, etc. So not only is the judge's decisions up for dispute, but anything and everything can be disputed multiple times and "our views" can change and shift as the years pass by.

It is completely mutable and nothing is ever set in stone until all's said and done.

With that said, I'm saying that HK is not only not part of the PRC, but that it's in the perfect position to declare itself independent based on the legal principles of self-determination and that the PRC violates human rights systematically. The ICCPR is a good starting point for them being able to go forward with the process of creating barriers to the PRC and making it difficult for them to do anything unless they use military force to silence them.

Most people in HK not only identify as "Hong Kongers", but the vast majority of them do not identify as "Chinese" and dislike the entire concept of ever having to identify as "Chinese".

Taiwan is a good example of a region that used the gray area of legalese to stonewall China's attempts at controlling it directly. The scales tip back and forth a lot but the situation is similar in various ways.

Point being, if and when the PRC moves it's military in and starts disappearing and killing HK citizens claiming "they are terrorists/rebels/etc" I will be here telling you that's not true, and that the PRC is tyrannical oppressive and psychopathic, and that their only method of control is "might is right" and that this is illegal under international law and a war crime.

I could go on about this for hours, and I've said a lot of stuff in this and other threads, and my thinking is developing as time is progressing. But basically I'm going to continue saying HK is not only not part of China, but that it's in the perfect position to declare independence and/or claim that it's rightfully part of the Nationalist "Republic of China" govt (the one that existed before the Commies took over).

I mean really think about it. The ROC could still be considered completely legitimate here as rightful owners of HK, and we could say that the PRC is a "terrorist" entity, or "illegitimate" in whatever legalese we can devise.

For example read this:

Today, only 17 UN member states (Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, Nicaragua, Haiti, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Paraguay, Swaziland, Kiribati, Nauru, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Marshall Islands and Palau) and the Holy See maintain relations with the ROC.

History of Taiwan since 1945

The Holy See still recognizes it, and as any good conspiracy theorist knows, they are one of the most important voices politically in the world. Heck, some people think they rule the world in conjunction with London and DC.

Even the PRC grudgingly recognizes the ROC's political legitimacy:

On 7 November 2015, a meeting was held by ROC president Ma Ying-jeou and Communist Party's General Secretary Xi Jinping in Singapore.

So I'd even go so far as to say that the ROC is the rightful govt of all of China, despite being in exile, and that they are the rightful owners of HK and that any treaties made between the UK and the PRC are null and void on their face because the PRC never had a legitimate claim to HK to begin with.

So let's see the pro PRC people argue against that and build a more convincing legal claim. I know they can easily just drive a bunch of tanks in and kill anyone who disagrees and just take the island by force, but that's illegal and a war crime so it doesn't make their claims legitimate by international law or the principles and theories of law.

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: muzzleflash
Hong Kong is not Chinese.
It's autonomous.

Autonomy is not independence.

The Azores are autonomous but they are part of Portugal.
Spanish regions like Catalonia and the Basque Country are autonomous but they part of Spain.

I didn't say they were independent. I said autonomous - which is the twilight in between.
It's a great position to declare independence from with some legitimacy.

Read my post above for more ideas on that...

originally posted by: muzzleflash
I didn't say they were independent. I said autonomous - which is the twilight in between.
It's a great position to declare independence from with some legitimacy.

They can only become independent from China if they are part of China now.

Read my post above for more ideas on that...

Too confusing for me at this late hour.

HK protesters are ingenious, 3.30am over there and there's tons of them running around with laser lights, basically aggravating the houses of those people, who I'm guessing are associated with the Chinese run of things in town.

Correction, it's the police station

Additionally, when you look at a bio of the Hong Kong Police, it doesn't make for good reading in respect to having an honest police force:

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Lasers have been a common "weapon" used by protesters across the world in recent years.

4.20am, about 3 cop vans pull up and arrest a few protesters, then disappear.

6.00am now, 10 times more protesters with laser times start blasting the police station again. Cops start shining search lights back. It's getting comical, and yet fascinating

It should be added, for every cop there's a journo, this is an absolute press feeding frenzy