Mass shootings madnesss...

So much wisdom in one topic! This actually helpt me to get a wider point of view on this. So many angles to explore now.

Thank you for responding to my OP!

originally posted by: muzzleflash
With the way I see people treat each other these days, I suspect there are literally millions of confused angry young people full of hate that feel all alone and lost in a society that doesn't care about them.

But why do people treat each other like this today? Why do they feel (are?) alone?

And then there are those who can post a photo of themselves on social media and say "I'm sad today" and 500 people instantly rush to their aid caring so deeply about their feelings.

I'm sure that's part of the problem, the "I don't get likes like other people get" syndrome, but that's only happen because people are already alone in a world full of people around them. The fact that someone needs to look for likes on social media instead of looking for a simple "good morning" from a real friend is something that makes me think that they are in a society that favours quantity over quality, in which being popular is better than being good.

Just merely handing out pills to people is certainly not the answer to this. It is a social problem and I don't really see any way to solve it. There is no way to control how others treat each other. It will probably continue happening at a quickening pace as it snowballs down the hill.

I agree, it's a social problem, and the only way to solve it is to understand how it appeared, what lead to the present situation and why people in the US appear much more affected than people on other "western" countries.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
What we can give people today, and tomorrow, are rights. There are people who have sacrificed their lives for the rights we have today. And one of the greatest things we can do is pass on those rights to future generations. If it costs us our lives, then so be it. Isn't that why we have a military? If preserving our rights is not worth dying for, then why should we fight anyone who wants to take them?

First of all, that depends on what rights you are talking about, some are more important than others.

Also, one thing is to dye while protecting the rights from someone that is trying to take them away, a completely different thing is to dye because some idiot was using his rights to prevent other people from having the right to live peacefully.

Dying because a cowardly idiot decided to kill people just because he/she could is not the same thing as putting your life at risk in a war or a revolution to protect everyone's rights.

originally posted by: cleverhans
Technology may play a part, for all its wonders and conveniences, it also really isolates people. Everything is done online so no one leaves their house.

That's why, on a previous post, I was talking about why this appears to affect more people in the US than in other "western" countries, with the same level of technology available to them. Technology doesn't explain why people prefer to use it instead of direct human interaction.

There’s something about talking to a person face to face, seeing their eyes, reading their body language, that helps us feel, well human.

It's interesting that you mention "seeing their eyes", as I read some time ago that most people in the US prefer to look at a person's mouth when they are talking to them than to the person's eyes, missing a lot of information about what the person means by doing that.

originally posted by: Fools
I hope not, but when I talk to younger westerners these days, they are so confused and confounded that I wonder at times if that sort of thing isnt very close to happening again.

Could you be more specific about what you mean by "westerners"?

Thanks in advance.

(TL;DR at end)

I am from Europe but I know about the reasons why you Americans have the gun culture that you have (your civil war). This is why I think I can join this discussion with a bit of understanding.

A gun or firearm, sword or knife is a survival tool. It is up to the user, who sees the purpose in it. A hunter will say he needs it for his job or food. Someone in a dangerous environment will see the purpose in self defence first.

The user will determine the purpose. I make no difference in a knife, sword, gun (...).

If the user is just crazy, he will come up with a crazy purpose.


TL;DR: Society is the problem, not the tool. Everyone is a product of her or his environment. Everywhere, not only in the USA.

a reply to: ArMaP

resentment, why would you care about that when all everyone did was make you miserable while claiming to care so much for others, to them there is no innocent people, just liars, hypocrites and devils speaking many things while only caring about themselves.

it's all about making others suffer and be afraid of everything just like them, so they never find peace in this life.

a reply to: Goedhardt

a reply to: ArMaP

OP, excellent post. Your questions are very valid and relevant. In fact, this is what people SHOULD be asking...rather than focusing on the tools used to commit these tragedies. I think you've framed it perfectly.

From my perspective, I don't think some of the people who commit these acts believe the acts are real. I think they've been lulled into this mentality that they are living in some alternate reality where everything is like a video game. It's not real, to them. Even when they are committing the act itself, none of it is real in their minds.

Society has become increasingly detached from reality. Their perception of reality is reality shows on TV (which are not real), and CGI movies of violence and destruction, and video games. When you add in the ingredient of the MSM poisoning everyone's minds with non-stop gore and death, political posturing and drama, people get angry. They get depressed and really angry. Then they act out, in their fantasy world...where the worst thing that can happen is a "Game Over" sign flashing on their computer screen, or a commercial break, or the end of an episode. Everyone gets to go home, and everyone gets a do-over next time (for a better score). Again, it's not real to them.

Not all mass killers are like this, but a lot of them are, especially the young ones. Take Sandy Hook, or Columbine, VA Tech shootings as an example (and there are others), all of these twisted pieces of excrement all follow the same pattern as the El Paso shooter.

Even if you read this piece of excrement's 'manifesto' you step back from it and you can sort of see he doesn't think what he's about to do is real. Oh sure, he talks about the consequences (death penalty, and parental shame), but he does it in a way which is too matter of fact, like it's just a dramatic script...like once the "game" is over he'll get another try, another chance (for a better score).

At the risk of sounding like some 'old fogey' screaming 'get off my lawn'; I think the younger generations are not immersed in reality enough, and this is a parenting issue. They have too many ways, too many tools, to stay inside and escape reality whereas some of the older generation didn't have these things and were forced into going outside and realizing reality. When you fell off your bike, it hurt! When you were being a dick you got your ass kicked, and it hurt. It's that cause and effect that kids are missing today. Even though they might know the 'words' they don't have the connection to reality to understand the pain.

That's my .02

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

things like this have always happened, it's nothing new, people just know about them more because how easy it has gotten to exchange large amounts of information. some people just reach their limit of stress and can't handle it so they either kill others or themselves, it's probably survival instincts kicking in when it sees a threat, even if it's just an emotional one or a delusion.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
a reply to: Goedhardt
. . .

The media will condemn the shooter and everyone will talk about how horrible and evil it all was, and suggest more control-freak solutions - but really what is going on here is that we have a lack of love and compassion in society.

Certain people in our society are completely ignored and treated like crap by others, and when they seek help they are spoken to very negatively and mistreated. These people look around and see that others are treated well and comforted over the slightest issues. They see a disproportionate system of compassion.

That is actually why these shootings are happening. In order for someone to sacrifice their own life in order to harm and kill others they must have no reason to live themselves.

Why would they care what others feel or think when no one cares what they feel or think?
So in a strange way, these shootings are a form of vigilante justice of the sorts.

I agree with Muzzleflash's assessment here. Add to that a cultural lack of empathy and general disrespect for human life that is re-enforced with gratuitous violence presented as a form of entertainment.

Also, I cannot help but think the popular idea that killing animals is amoral and cruel while human beings are just a disease destroying the planet that deserve to go extinct is part of the problem as well.

The giddiness with which the gun control crowd reacts to every one of these shootings because it gives them an opportunity for political gain sickens me.

I am 100% 2nd amendment. I have also never been one to blame this phenomenon on video games, music, or other entertainment type influences.

However, some time ago we were watching some YouTube vids with our 21 year old son. He was showing us some newer VR technology. We started watching a video where some young men were testing it out (and mind you these were still generic wire frames) about halfway through I started feeling a bit sick by what I was seeing. They started off by shooting, stabbing, throwing knives. But it almost seemed to turn into a bit of torturing the wire frame man. These guys were just laughing the whole time and goading each other on....try this...try that.

This really made me change my stance. Consider the amount of hours these young guys are spending in these games doing this. AND, these days doing it in live real time, with others who are interacting with them...talking to them...like they are in a like minded club. This isn't words in a book, or words in a song....this is enacting killing, lifelike, in first person. There's just absolutely no way you can tell me this does not in some way numb the sensitivity to taking a life. Seeing it...doing it over and over and over in a very realistic fashion. No way.

Have you ever been lost in a good book, or a great movie, and afterwards you sort of are still in that world...walking around in real life but still feeling like you're in that world? I think Flyingclaydisk is right. I think it becomes hard for these kids to make the distinction. It's not the tool. It's that split second in your mind where you choose to get out of your car, walk up to a little kid, and pull the trigger.

a reply to: JourneyAbout

I made this post in another thread, but it's equally relevant here in response to your post about violent media:

When President Obama ordered the CDC to research gun violence after Newtown, one thing they came back with was that there's simply not enough unbiased research into the root causes of this issue. They recommended more research into several areas, including mental health, societal factors and the impact of violent media.

President Obama ordered no additional research. And we all know why. CDC didn't come back with "ban guns" as the solution, so he wasn't interested. This study got almost zero coverage in the media. Anyone interested can check the link in my sig for more details about the study. Not one gun control advocate posted in that thread when I made it. Many of them are completely oblivious to the fact that that study exists, and still think the CDC is "banned" from studying gun violence. They're not, that's just a gun control lie.

More real research into this is needed, but the only "research" the gun control crowd wants is stuff supplied by groups like Everytown or MAIG that will have pre-determined results that guns are evil and must be banned.

ETA: I'm not saying we need to ban violent video games or anything like that. First of all, most issues are very complex and simplistic solutions like "ban xyz" almost never solve anything. And there are certainly plenty of people who play these types of games and have no problems at all. I enjoy some video games myself, including violent ones. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a seriously negative impact on some people. To ignore this factor in the gun violence debate is irresponsible and honestly makes me think some people aren't serious about improving things.

a reply to: muzzleflash

Wait a minute... they already did that with the Nazis! And before then!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Those are good points and they sound reasonable until you realize that every other western nation has movies and video games and they don't have mass shootings.

Maybe its a nexus of culture and social media and media. I have no idea.

I know for sure I don't want to leave my house anymore. I'm too old for this snip.

a reply to: ArMaP

What you say is true, for the most part, but I think we should remember that it wasn't terrorists who passed the Patriot Act. It was those who wanted more power for the government and less rights for the people. The Patriot Act legislation was prepared long before 9-11, just waiting for the opportunity to be put before Congress.

That opportunity came when America was mourning the senseless deaths that occurred, was enraged by seemingly inexplicable act of violence, and demanding that "somebody do something." A time when our emotions were clouding our judgement. In our grief, we weren't paying attention to the rights we were giving up for ourselves and for future generations.

I'd like to believe that the victims of 9-11 would not want their deaths to have resulted in less rights and freedoms for everyone else. And I'd like to believe that the victims of these mass shootings would not want their deaths to be used to take away the rights and freedoms of present and future Americans.

Maybe they weren't soldiers fighting on a battlefield. But if we allow any encroachment on our rights based on their deaths, the end result would be the same. We are always at war with those who wish to curtail our liberty. Every one of us who wants to preserve what we have is a soldier in that war.

a reply to: Goedhardt

Watch the documentary film called 'Bowling for Columbine'....
.. your query is explored in depth.

a reply to: muzzleflash

The shooter is still alive.
why don't you go give him a hug.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: muzzleflash

The shooter is still alive.
why don't you go give him a hug.

That is a fantastic example of how nasty human interactions have become!!

Where is the love?

a reply to: 0zzymand0s

Exactly. There's something more in the US (and it probably happened/has been happening a long time ago, not in the last 20 years or so) that makes it relatively common.

I don't have any problem watching a violent movie (like the original "Oldboy", from 2003) and I have been playing violent video games for more than 30 years without a problem, as have millions, so there's something different on the people that, because of that, act violently.