Handy hints for US members visiting the EU when choosing to defend themselves physically

In light of the apparently famous US music artist who has/is being charged with a crime of violence in Sweden I feel compelled to help the rest of you stay out of trouble if you visit.
I note in the thread about the individual and Trump's concern, many folk saying the guy deserved to be beaten, including multiple men and big dude on top of him on the floor.
Now yes, from a personal opinion, if someone has pissed me off enough then I will, and have, dished out a spanking which would have been deemed unreasonable force, but avoided legal trouble because no witnesses, cctv, etc, and saying the right things when interviewed by cops.

Sweden is similar to the UK although terms are different. You can only use reasonable/proportional force if you fear for your safety or the safety of others. In Sweden they call it being in peril.
I have beaten someone on the floor because he started the fight, I took him down, and genuinely feared if I didn't make him fully stop then I was facing a battering myself. The Crown prosecution agreed with me because he was a man mountain twice the size of me. His busted face and teeth were deemed reasonable in my use of force, and I stopped as soon as he was no longer dangerous to me.

Now, the US guy in Sweden had a huge badass bodyguard with him, dragged the alleged offender to the floor then the rest of them kicked him repeatedly.
The accused was clearly a dick, but Swedish law says you can't assault someone for being a dick, only use force when in peril as follows:

A situation of peril is stated to exist if:

a person is subjected to, or is in imminent danger of being subjected to, a criminal attack against property or person, or

a person through threats, force or violence is prevented from taking back stolen property found on criminals "red handed", or

an intruder attempts to enter a room, house, estate or ship, or

another person refuses to leave a residence after being told to.

There is also this:

However, the defending party must also consider that which is defended and what injury is inflicted upon the attacker. If that which is defended is insignificant in comparison to the injuries to the attacker, the court may reject the claim that person acted in self-defense since the damage done to the attacker is "blatantly unjustifiable". Loss of life or permanent bodily injury is rarely justified as self-defense unless the defending party was in danger of being subjected to the same.

There is no defence of being angry (even if every reasonable person agrees why), nope, you can only defend yourself through fear, and your use of force has to be proportionate.

We have long time learned to negotiate the law in the UK, either lie through your teeth, or teach someone a lesson where others cannot see, ie law enforcement.

Only today I had to stop my friend from beating the #### out of a grown man who had assaulted his son leaving cuts and bruises, he was going to steam over and punish him, as I fully supported his wish to do so, but reminded him of the law. Rage is no defence, only fear for the safety of yourself or others. After the threat has stopped it becomes illegal.

Such a circumstance left my mate two options, report the assault to the police, or follow the guy from work/wherever on a bicycle with a full face BMX helmet, then give him a savage beating at the first street with no cctv.

You may not like it, and you can argue until your face is red with rage, but I'm just letting you know what doesn't slide with law enforcement here.

My opinion of the US artist and his huge guard beating the skinny weed on the floor, yes totally understand, but there was no peril to him as far as I could see at all, big dude could've easy done both of them lol. And it seems the Swedish prosecutor agrees after seeing film which we haven't.
If you are gonna use violence here in Europe, you better understand reasonable force and fear for safety.

I can can say your mother is a whore to your face, but you cannot hit me for being angry. I've had a couple of people arrested like that with calm words inciting them to attack me, which cctv didn't hear, and I was laughing all the way home when I used reasonable force to defend against violent attack.

You have to be reasonably intelligent to understand reasonable force laws over here, so if you aren't I would advise you to stay in 'murica for your own safety, and to stay out of jail.
😂

Oh, and yes the laws in no way reflect what I consider reasonable use of force in the real world, but as I said, we've grown up with it here so unless you are a complete Muppet then you know what to say or do to avoid prosecution.
Away from witnesses/cctv and you are good to go if you lie, one man calling another a liar doesn't wash in courts here because, beyond reasonable doubt considerations 👍

The person that he assaulted, was himself found guilty of a similar charge just years prior.

His sentence? Community service and a 500 dollar fine.

Seems fairly imbalanced.

Though ultimately I agree with your general premise. I think americans would do best to stay in a country that has more in the way of freedom and preponderance of innocence and a fairer justice system(which is mad, because ours is very much broken, american broken though is still top notch to ROW) than to travel to the 3rd world and expect it to be in any way like the greatest country in the world.

a reply to: MisterSpock

I agree, and likely the US guy will not get a fine, just kicked out as the time in custody would be in lieu of any other punishment. As a foreign national custody prior to full investigation is to be expected unfortunately.

originally posted by: Silure
a reply to: MisterSpock

I agree, and likely the US guy will not get a fine, just kicked out as the time in custody would be in lieu of any other punishment. As a foreign national custody prior to full investigation is to be expected unfortunately.

Honestly, sweden officials should have been smart(for once) and just fast tracked this.

"charged" him, got him in front of a judge in like 3 days(minimal time in custody) and issued a fine for like 5K.

Still don't think that would make them look good, but dragging this out will only be worse.

I'm not a fan of hollywood or the music industry, I find their "solidarity" in blackballing things over petty SJW nonsense repulsive. However, I hope that entertainers abandon sweden as a place to perform in the near future.

Sure, it won't be a big hit, more of a symbolic one.

The bigger hit will be when large homegrown corps start to flee sweden because of it's rapid descent into #hole status.

www.amren.com...

Sorry about the source, never heard of them, just the first hit on the search. Most all the other results were the same title.

a reply to: MisterSpock

Again totally agree.
If it had been in my neck of the woods it would have been next day in court and kicked out of the country. Unless it happened on a Friday at close of business then expect police station cell until Monday when the court opens again.
To be honest though, if no real injuries, cops here would offer a penalty like £100 and kick you out within hours, it is an admission of guilt, raises some cash, and saves money on court costs, while being good for stats on criminal punishment lol

Being a Canadian here, I know some Americans (US) will go to EU and wear clothes with Canada logos on shirts,hats, etc. There's the hint for you.

They were following Rocky, grabbing women and being obnoxious while trying to act like they were part of the crew. What's supposed to happen?

originally posted by: underwerks
They were following Rocky, grabbing women and being obnoxious while trying to act like they were part of the crew. What's supposed to happen?

They are supposed to take a light beating, robbery and maybe some light groping on the women.

They are apparently not allowed to protect themselves unless absolute death is imminent.

Still, they would probably have a 50/50 percent chance of still being charged.

a reply to: openedeyesandears
Lmao! I've had trouble in a few countries over the years just for being British.
Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, rural Malaysia, and Gambia...there is a coincidental link to these nations lol

Honestly A$AP and crew are lucky it was just some words and fists.

Isn't grenade attacks a huge thing there, like literally the highest of any country that is not designated as a war zone?

I guess this can fall under that category of "getting an education". A$AP got one, usually it costs money but for him it will cost his freedom for a few months. Still, tuition varies from person to person.

I'm sure now he will wonder why any sane person would travel to such "questionable" areas.

originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: underwerks
They were following Rocky, grabbing women and being obnoxious while trying to act like they were part of the crew. What's supposed to happen?

They are supposed to take a light beating, robbery and maybe some light groping on the women.

They are apparently not allowed to protect themselves unless absolute death is imminent.

Still, they would probably have a 50/50 percent chance of still being charged.

I'm not knowledgeable on swedish laws, but if imminent death is the only reason a person is allowed to defend themselves, that's BS.

I think Trump trying to work something out hurt Rockys chances at being freed more than anything. As much as the rest of the world hates Trump, I think they'll be looking for Americans to make an example out of. And show that they aren't beholden to what used to be the influence of the United States.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: underwerks
They were following Rocky, grabbing women and being obnoxious while trying to act like they were part of the crew. What's supposed to happen?

They are supposed to take a light beating, robbery and maybe some light groping on the women.

They are apparently not allowed to protect themselves unless absolute death is imminent.

Still, they would probably have a 50/50 percent chance of still being charged.

I'm not knowledgeable on swedish laws, but if imminent death is the only reason a person is allowed to defend themselves, that's BS.

I think Trump trying to work something out hurt Rockys chances at being freed more than anything. As much as the rest of the world hates Trump, I think they'll be looking for Americans to make an example out of. And show that they aren't beholden to what used to be the influence of the United States.

OP reference UK law as similar.

I believe in the UK, if someone is in your house with a knife in the middle of the night, you can STILL BE CHARGED if you defend yourself.

The fact of the matter is, that while the US is not perfect, it places much higher VALUE on the life of an innocent than any other country. Which is sad, IMO. People should have the right to protect themselves, even with just their fists. When you don't even have that, your just cattle.

a reply to: MisterSpock

Lol, not quite that bad but a few men on one weedy guy and you've got difficulty to show proportionate reasonable force due to fear. Like I said, I've grown up negotiating the law here and it is similar to Sweden, given out lots of beatings which the law would deem unreasonable, you just have to be aware how the prosecutors look at it.
I wouldn't advocate changing the law either, I understand how to work it so don't really care. Any punishment beatings I'll save for no witnesses/cctv, and my cell phone being recorded as at the house of friends who will also testify that I was with them all night lol

originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: underwerks
They were following Rocky, grabbing women and being obnoxious while trying to act like they were part of the crew. What's supposed to happen?

They are supposed to take a light beating, robbery and maybe some light groping on the women.

They are apparently not allowed to protect themselves unless absolute death is imminent.

Still, they would probably have a 50/50 percent chance of still being charged.

I'm not knowledgeable on swedish laws, but if imminent death is the only reason a person is allowed to defend themselves, that's BS.

I think Trump trying to work something out hurt Rockys chances at being freed more than anything. As much as the rest of the world hates Trump, I think they'll be looking for Americans to make an example out of. And show that they aren't beholden to what used to be the influence of the United States.

OP reference UK law as similar.

I believe in the UK, if someone is in your house with a knife in the middle of the night, you can STILL BE CHARGED if you defend yourself.

The fact of the matter is, that while the US is not perfect, it places much higher VALUE on the life of an innocent than any other country. Which is sad, IMO. People should have the right to protect themselves, even with just their fists. When you don't even have that, your just cattle.

If true that's crazy to me. No one should ever be prosecuted for protecting themselves.

a reply to: MisterSpock

I've used a blade on a burglar years ago, I was terrified, didn't know how many were in the building, and only stabbed him the once, before phoning for an ambulance and tending to his wound.
The Crown prosecution service deemed it reasonable force and it didn't go to court. Don't believe everything in the papers, honestly.
The people who get charged are usually stupid enough to say they were angry and "he deserved it" whatever. Gotta be real careful here, but if you say the right things it's easy to work around.
If I had stabbed him in the back while he was no threat fleeing for sure it would have been jail for me though.

Edit, Gotta crash out, way passed my bedtime lol, hope this thread helps anyone visiting these parts, just remember, whatever the situation, fear is the only safe emotion to express if you end up in a violent situation, and when the threat is neutralized you have to stop if there are witnesses or cameras watching 😉

Mann same in Texas

Wasp spray in the truck....cheap in the springtime.....25 feet.....

XDM by Springfeild in 45 in back waistband with speed strips

a reply to: MisterSpock

You talk some crap.

I've known a cop to get his jaw broken and the person doing it walked because it was clearly police intimidation and the person defended himself reasonably. One hit to the face, it's called proportionate force.

And we can defend ourselves within our homes, again it'll always be a case of what's considered reasonable force. In fact the US isn't all that different. If your home was invaded by say 2 people and you shoot one in self defense but the second was executed as in shot point blank whilst on his knees you will be going to jail for murder. I mean damn, if I was knowledgeable about my home about to get invaded and I prepared by keeping a blade handy it would be near impossible for me to say "oh it was a spur of the moment thing and I just happened to have a blade handy" it's bs, it's easy to assume I knew of the danger to come and planned for it. Meaning I already screwed up because I took a criminal matter into my own hands and had a plan of intent. Whereas if I'm in the kitchen cutting carrots and I was attacked in the kitchen I may just get away with knifing someone in self defense.

I've kicked some idiot down the stairs who was armed and trying to attack someone in my house, it never got any further than being asked why I kicked him... Because he had a hammer and his buddy had a knife, it's basic common sense # tbh. I've seen bouncers get the crap knocked out of them because they're short tempered roid heads. It's perfectly reasonable to knock a 6"5' water bag out and keep him knocked out because he thinks he can pick people up and rag them around.

Things are dealt with on a case by case basis, it's usually easy to prove if something was intended or was acted out die to genuine fear, and yeah Sweden is no different that the UK in terms of law... We're all (in theory and practice) treated the same and the courts are independent of the government.

So I'm perplexed at how officials can do anything about this case, they can't even if they wanted to. All our nation's are based on common law, it's not perfect but it's usually reasonable. At least have a clue what you're talking about before spouting off nonsense.

a reply to: Silure

Exactly, it is what it is and it's the same throughout most of the world tbh because most reasonable nations use a form of common law.

Anything is a weapon especially if you're fearing for your life, just tow the line of reasonable force.

OP your story confuses me as an American, at what point can I open fire?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
OP your story confuses me as an American, at what point can I open fire?

Great question!