Paradise or heaven - Where do we go when we die.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
I find it hilarious that people will accept Jesus words about Heaven but not his words about Hell.

I find it hilarious that so many Christians believe Christ's words as long as it's convenient. When his words become inconvenient, they redefine what he meant to support what they want to believe.

Everyone's personal god believes the same things they do.

a reply to: Klassified

Your general statement and poor attempt to generalize and put all Christians into one pot shows your hypocrisy.

Your antichrist statements now and in the past show a clear antichrist spirit.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Actually the day my father in law passed in 2011 I felt this crazy energy inside my chest. It was noon and we were having lunch in his home after leaving Hospice at 6:00AM that morning to collect his valuables as he passed at 5:30AM. I was sitting in his chair. I spoke about what I was feeling and my sister in law said that that's Jim. Hes scared, he doesn't know where he is and he probably hasn't realized that he died. Yikes! She also said she felt the energy so we kept saying when we felt it back and forth and it went on for an hour. My wife was with us but did not feel anything. My sister in law evidently had these same types of crazy energy feelings since 2000 when her husband passed at 39. So she studied and looked into it. I also had two more "crazy energy" days within two weeks of his passing. Nothing since. I never felt this with any of my family passing however my parents are alive today.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

someone falls over dead, they're just plain friggin dead. Done. Over. Nothing else

Well that's Front Porch Logic and good for you as that's what you believe as you only know what you know so I get it. I always wondered but after experiencing another dead relatives energy inside me I changed my mind. You can read about it in my response to another OP on this thread.

I would recommend that you keep an open mind but its your life. Along with your "afterlife".

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Did Jesus speak of heaven? Yes he did and he made many references to heaven, where his father lives and rules from. Where angels live. Heaven was made for God's throne and his messengers (the angels) and not for humans. Earth was made for mankind.

The bible mentions heaven numerous times, starting with the book of Genesis through to the book of Revelation. Other religions speak of heaven.

Then when Jesus was hanging on the cross, one of the thieves hanging on the cross near him said:

Luke 23:43 “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

MEANING: The thief will go to paradise with Christ due to his last minute change of faith and accepting Jesus as the Christ.

So why didn't Jesus say heaven? Why did he say the word paradise? Other religions also use the word paradise instead oh heaven why?

It is because paradise is not heaven. Paradise is where people go who will receive a resurrection and hell is where people go who do not get a resurrection. Paradise will look very similar to earth and you will not find all of your friends and family there in paradise.

There will be a few "elect" who get to live in heaven who will not see a resurrection but will live with God even after Jesus returns to earth, those select few will remain with the father.

Not only Christianity but other religions believe in a resurrection. It would be cruel for God to allow his children into heaven and then take them away and let them be resurrected back on earth. That would be separation from God (the father) and makes no sense. The pain of separation would be torture to the devout.

So going to heaven does not make sense but paradise does. This is also where Christ was for three days.... in paradise and not heaven.

Have a great day,

God bless you all.

If you really want to know, we simply begin again, exactly the same, over and over. Heaven or hell? You decide.

Not all of them did...Judaism believes in a very long ticket line like the government that dark an gloomy all the while in Buddhism, ones a glutton for punishment if one seeks resurrection.

originally posted by: Waterglass
a reply to: BrianFlanders

someone falls over dead, they're just plain friggin dead. Done. Over. Nothing else

Well that's Front Porch Logic and good for you as that's what you believe as you only know what you know so I get it. I always wondered but after experiencing another dead relatives energy inside me I changed my mind.

The death of someone you know (knew/liked/loved) is a trauma. Even if you didn't like them very much, it brings your own mortality into sharp focus. Most people have spent a lot of time and energy building a life around the fact that they want to be here to enjoy it for as long as they can.

The idea that you spend most of your life fighting little petty battles that you can win (albeit it takes a substantial amount of effort for a puny human to win even the pettiest battles) and then just plain die in the end is an ugly thing to think about. Most people can't handle it. The closer you get the less you want to believe it. But there it is. In all of it's hideous glory. The unvarnished truth of our existence is that there really isn't a point to any of it except for what we make of it in our own minds. And that will all be gone in a heartbeat when it's all said and done. All for nothing. Just for the hell of it.

And that is why nobody is in any big hurry to have the majority of people accept the reality of it. Can you imagine the chaos of living in a world where 99% of people KNOW they could croak tomorrow and there would be nothing else? Would we put up with this crap if we all knew that we have maybe 50 good years before it all goes to # and we never get anything else until we die and that's it?

So most people spend the vast majority of their best years doing absolutely nothing. Or certainly nothing they actually want to be doing. The crap that most people are doing for most of their lives basically just keeps them living like a farm animal until they die. Work to live and live to work and then die in the end. Well, you have to really come up with something to placate them if you expect people to do that forever. If you're lucky you'll pop out a couple of kids and leave them behind to do the same dull # for their entire lives and die pointlessly in the end as well.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Klassified

Your general statement and poor attempt to generalize and put all Christians into one pot shows your hypocrisy.

Your antichrist statements now and in the past show a clear antichrist spirit.

Well thank you. You're not a bad chap yourself, but you have to admit it happens a lot. There's a reason there are so many denominations, and it usually boils down to interpretation, which goes right back to what i said. As Travis Walton put it...
"I've come to realize that the biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are compulsively filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true."

originally posted by: Waterglass
a reply to: EasternShadow

Actually the day my father in law passed in 2011 I felt this crazy energy inside my chest. It was noon and we were having lunch in his home after leaving Hospice at 6:00AM that morning to collect his valuables as he passed at 5:30AM. I was sitting in his chair. I spoke about what I was feeling and my sister in law said that that's Jim. Hes scared, he doesn't know where he is and he probably hasn't realized that he died. Yikes!

Yup I can understand his feeling. I bet everyone will scare too. It is completely normal. But dont worry too much about it. Everything is going to be ok.

After we die, we return to the place we were at before being conceived. Anyone remember where that was?

a reply to: Cropper

It was dark timeless void... There is no senses to describe the feeling. It feels like you are just floating freely like air or some kind of energy. "Breath of God"? I don't know. But somehow it wasn't the first time for me.

Doesn't feel like an eternity tho. Because in flash you'll be disturbed by your first heart beat and the sound of your mother reassuring that you are not alone.

We have been there. We just forget the experience. We all are too busy with our new flesh and our new world.

To be awaken as new person with completely blank identity. And so everything about the past was gone. Except for the very few who chooses to cling on the past. Fighting not to be reborn...

a reply to: BrianFlanders

So why are you trying to discredit what I wrote. Its true, happened and in my opine we will live on after death. I wasn't traumatized by an 80 year old relatives death. I was traumatized when I felt this weird energy inside me as I never experienced it before. I described it exactly to my sister in law and to validate I asked her what it feels like to her and she described it exactly as I felt it. In my mind that's a confirmation.

Thank you for describing your take on life as I do not think like you do nor share that vision.

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Klassified

Your general statement and poor attempt to generalize and put all Christians into one pot shows your hypocrisy.

Your antichrist statements now and in the past show a clear antichrist spirit.

Well thank you. You're not a bad chap yourself, but you have to admit it happens a lot. There's a reason there are so many denominations, and it usually boils down to interpretation, which goes right back to what i said. As Travis Walton put it...
"I've come to realize that the biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are compulsively filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true."

Very well written and I mostly agree however we can not judge an entire group of people, can we? If we did that then what? Hate one race and discriminate against them? Ridicule them in public? Is this not what you do towards Christians as a whole? Hate on them and ridicule them?

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Klassified

Your general statement and poor attempt to generalize and put all Christians into one pot shows your hypocrisy.

Your antichrist statements now and in the past show a clear antichrist spirit.

Well thank you. You're not a bad chap yourself, but you have to admit it happens a lot. There's a reason there are so many denominations, and it usually boils down to interpretation, which goes right back to what i said. As Travis Walton put it...
"I've come to realize that the biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are compulsively filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true."

Very well written and I mostly agree however we can not judge an entire group of people, can we? If we did that then what? Hate one race and discriminate against them? Ridicule them in public? Is this not what you do towards Christians as a whole? Hate on them and ridicule them?

I do despise Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) as a whole, but I do not and cannot hate individuals for their faith. To do so is illogical and senseless. I would first have to disown my family since all of them are Christian with the exception of a few. I care about all of them, even the most fundamentalist. Have we debated, argued, ridiculed, and heckled one another? You bet we have, and ate holiday dinners together right after, and I kept my mouth shut while they said "grace" before eating.
Make no mistake. I may debate and argue with you on ATS from now on, but I will also help you out in any way I am able to as a human being in person. My family and christian friends from my days as a fundy will vouch for me there, but I know you don't believe I was ever a Christian, and that's okay. I don't believe Christians who say they were once atheists either.

My view is similar to an old Christian saying. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Did Jesus speak of heaven? Yes he did and he made many references to heaven, where his father lives and rules from. Where angels live. Heaven was made for God's throne and his messengers (the angels) and not for humans. Earth was made for mankind.

The thief, next to Jesus on the cross, was invited to the future paradise after Christ's second coming. This is called the last day. After the thief died he would have no memory between the day of his execution and his resurrection on the last day. It would seem instantaneous to him once he woke up from death. Jesus said he would see him that same day in paradise but it would be the same day to the thief only.

Paul mentioned the paradise as well. He talked about a man who had a vision of the paradise which was associated with the third heaven. You can find that account at 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. The bible does not out rightly define a third heaven but if you closely examine 2 Peter 3 you will see the breakdown of the three heavens. These heavens mentioned in 2 Peter are not talking about God's dwelling place. They are talking about the skies above the surface of the earth. There were two different kinds of heavens before and after the flood. The future third heaven will look different than this current one.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: BrianFlanders

That is a pagan belief

We have a spirit within our body.

Death is the body, the spirit lives on.

You will be shocked once you die. Which I hope is when you are old.

What happens to the soul? We are a triune creation Spirit, Soul, and Body according to Jesus and Paul.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

So why didn't Jesus say heaven? Why did he say the word paradise? Other religions also use the word paradise instead oh heaven why?

The reason Jesus did not tell Dismas [repenting thief] that he [Dismas] would be in paradise with Him [Jesus] the very day they would both die is because paradise had been moved from the Gan Eden to Sheol. As they [Jesus and Dismas] both did die that same day, they both descended into Sheol and into the realm known as paradise/Abraham's Bosom.

As it was prophesized, Jesus then spent three days and three nights in Sheol and led the justified souls out of Abraham's Bosom and into the celestial kingdom of heaven. Ditmas was among those justified souls that were resurrected from Sheol to the celestial New Jerusalem.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And exactly where is paradise now?

2Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

Luke 23:43 “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Since Greek in that time didn't have any punctuation like commas, what happens if you place the comma like this:

“Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Does that change the meaning of what Jesus said there? Does the Bible teach that Jesus went to Paradise on that very day? Or did he go elsewhere? And was this a promise for the future?

What does Acts 2:27 say about where Jesus was when he was dead (by logical extention where he went to when he died)?

KJV:

“Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Of course, a more accurate translation reads as follows, NW:

“because you will not leave me* [Or “my soul.”] in the Grave,* [Or “Hades,” that is, the common grave of mankind. See Glossary.] nor will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.”

When Jesus died, he went to the common grave of mankind, where he was conscious of nothing at all and didnt exist for 3 days. Anyone teaching that some part of him lived on and went either to heaven, or a mythological place of physical torture called "hell" (from Jerome's Latin Vulgate: "Hel"), or Paradise for that matter, is denying that Jesus actually died and was dead for 3 days awaiting a resurrection by his God and Father, Jehovah. After all, if you cease to exist, as is the case with death, you can't very well resurrect yourself now can you? That would be like arguing that the universe created itself before it even existed to do anything (as claimed by Stephen Hawking and others, addressed by John Lennox as "nonsense" and a logical contradiction, whereas John Lennox ironically believes that Jesus resurrected himself when he was dead because he teaches that Jesus is the God who resurrected him according to the Bible; that's equally nonsense but you'll never get John Lennox to acknowledge that one).

If one teaches that the soul is immortal or some immaterial part of man survives the death of the body, as is done by so many religions in Christendom, that's also a form of denying that Jesus actually died. Because 'the real you', so to speak, your soul, doesn't actually die then. And if one incorporates that teaching into what is said about Jesus then you are subtly giving the impression that the real Jesus, his soul, didn't actually die, i.e. cease to exist.

Of course the word "soul" in the Bible is most often referring to the whole living person (hence the rendering "me" as well as "my soul" earlier, it means the same thing) and it is material in the case of man. And when Jesus was on earth, he was definitely "a man" as well as a mighty one/god (that's the most basic general definition for "god": mighty one; there are other definitions as well).

1 Timothy 2:5

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,”

Where do we go when we die? The Grave/Hades, the common grave of mankind where the dead are conscious of nothing at all and cease to exist; it is described in the Bible as a symbolic place or condition wherein all activity and consciousness cease.​—Ge 47:30; Ec 9:10; Ac 2:31.​ Awaiting a resurrection (which can take 2 forms with 2 possible destinations, alluded to in the OP). Something that would not be necessary if we weren't really dead and some immaterial part of man lived on after the death of the body; so these teachings concerning the soul or this immaterial part of man that keeps on living (whatever it's called) also undermine the biblical teaching of the resurrection.

More details about Luke 23:43:

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Klassified

Your general statement and poor attempt to generalize and put all Christians into one pot shows your hypocrisy.

Your antichrist statements now and in the past show a clear antichrist spirit.

...There's a reason there are so many denominations, and it usually boils down to interpretation, which goes right back to what i said. As Travis Walton put it...
"I've come to realize that the biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are compulsively filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true."

So, does that count for you as well then? That last description and what you end up making of the reality that there are so many denominations? Cause some people see it as evidence for every thing the Bible says about counterfeit versions of Christianity, false religion (Babylon the Great*) and its spiritual father, Satan.

*: which also includes other religions outside Christendom where you can find overlapping teachings about subjects such as the soul or whatever it's called (the immaterial part of man that survives the death of the body); thus any religion that teaches something about a so-called "afterlife", unless they are referring to a life after the resurrection with that term, which they usually aren't. At least not in the same sense the Bible speaks about it as explained in my previous comment.

“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.

The term "Babylon the Great" being therefore quite appropiate to identify false religion. Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide. “Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.

Their gods: There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40) “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

Use of images: “[In Mesopotamian religion] the role of the image was central in the cult as well as in private worship, as the wide distribution of cheap replicas of such images shows. Fundamentally, the deity was considered present in its image if it showed certain specific features and paraphernalia and was cared for in the appropriate manner.”—Ancient Mesopotamia—Portrait of a Dead Civilization (Chicago, 1964), A. L. Oppenheim, p. 184.

We've already covered their belief regarding death, so I'll move on with...

Position of the priesthood: “The distinction between priest and layman is characteristic of this [Babylonian] religion.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1948), Vol. 2, p. 861.

Practice of astrology, divination, magic, and sorcery: Historian A. H. Sayce writes: “[In] the religion of ancient Babylonia . . . every object and force of nature was supposed to have its zi or spirit, who could be controlled by the magical exorcisms of the Shaman, or sorcerer-priest.” (The History of Nations, New York, 1928, Vol. I, p. 96) “The Chaldeans [Babylonians] made great progress in the study of astronomy through an effort to discover the future in the stars. This art we call ‘astrology.’”—The Dawn of Civilization and Life in the Ancient East (Chicago, 1938), R. M. Engberg, p. 230.

Many of these teachings, ideas or religious concepts and practices have made their way into Christendom (the religions that profess to be Christian but actually are not), sometimes in a slightly modified form, including the notion that God is a Trinity (3 persons in or making up 1 God, or worshipped as one God, a triad god), use of images as described above (particularly in the Eastern Orthodox Church), a clergy-laity distinction (against the express instructions from Jesus about this) and even divination (when praying to dead saints for example).

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: DeathSlayer

The reason Jesus did not tell Dismas [repenting thief] that he [Dismas] would be in paradise with Him [Jesus] the very day they would both die is because paradise had been moved from the Gan Eden to Sheol. As they [Jesus and Dismas] both did die that same day, they both descended into Sheol and into the realm known as paradise/Abraham's Bosom.

Paradise moved to the common grave of mankind, described in the Bible as a symbolic place or condition wherein all activity and consciousness has ceased*? That sounds rather ridiculous to me. *: Ge 47:30; Ec 9:10; Ac 2:31; also see first comment of mine in this thread and the glossary for the word “Sheol/Hades/the Grave” (KJV “Hell”), Hebrew, Greek and English respectively, that I will link again below.

As it was prophesized, Jesus then spent three days and three nights in Sheol and led the justified souls out of Abraham's Bosom and into the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Jesus couldn't do anything when he was dead for 3 days and in the common grave of mankind, a symbolic place or condition wherein all activity and consciousness has ceased. “For the living know* [Or “are conscious.”] that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all”, “for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave,* [Or “Sheol,” that is, the common grave of mankind. See Glossary.] where you are going.” (Ec 9:5, 10)

And exactly where is paradise now?

2Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

At 2 Corinthians 12:2, 3, Paul refers to a certain man who was “caught away to the third heaven.” Who was that? Writing to the Corinthian congregation, Paul stressed that God was using him as an apostle. (2 Cor. 11:5, 23) He then mentioned “visions and revelations of the Lord.” Paul did not in that context mention other brothers. Thus, he was logically referring to himself as being the man who had received visions and revelations.​—2 Cor. 12:1, 5.

So Paul was the one who was “caught away to the third heaven” and “caught away into paradise.” (2 Cor. 12:2-4) He used the term “revelations,” which suggests a revealing of what will exist in the future.

What did Paul see as “the third heaven”?

In the Bible, “heaven” can refer to the physical heavens. (Gen. 11:4; 27:28; Matt. 6:26) But “heaven” is also used in other senses. Sometimes it refers to human rulership. (Dan. 4:20-22) Or it can refer to divine rulership, such as through the Kingdom of God.​—Rev. 21:1.

Paul saw “the third heaven.” What was the point? The Bible occasionally repeats something three times for emphasis, to show intensity, or to imply added strength. (Isa. 6:3; Ezek. 21:27; Rev. 4:8) It seems that in speaking of “the third heaven,” Paul was stressing a superlative, an exalted, form of rulership​—the Messianic Kingdom. (See Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 1, pp. 1059, 1062.) As the apostle Peter wrote, we are awaiting the “new heavens” according to God’s promise.​—2 Pet. 3:13.

What about Paul’s mention of “paradise”?

The word “paradise” likewise can mean various things: (1) In view of man’s original home, “paradise” can logically refer to the literal earthly Paradise that is ahead. (2) It can refer to the spiritual condition that God’s people will enjoy in the new world. (3) Additionally, it can refer to the blessed conditions in heaven, “the paradise of God” mentioned at Revelation 2:7.*​—See Work to Enhance the Spiritual Paradise, par. 8. *: a text you used.

It is possible that Paul was alluding to all three of those aspects at 2 Corinthians 12:4 when describing his experience.

To summarize:

“The third heaven” mentioned at 2 Corinthians 12:2 is likely the Messianic Kingdom, the “new heavens.”​—2 Pet. 3:13.

It is “the third heaven” because the Kingdom is a superlative, an elevated, form of rulership.

The “paradise” into which Paul was “caught away” in vision likely refers to (1) the physical Paradise to come on earth, (2) the spiritual paradise that will exist then, which will be more extensive than the spiritual paradise that exists now, and (3) “the paradise of God” in heaven that will coexist in the new world.

Accordingly, the new world will be a combination of the new heavens and the new earth. It will be a new arrangement, including both the heavenly Kingdom government and mankind serving Jehovah on a paradise earth.