What Medium is Propagating Electromagnetic Waves?

a reply to: AntonGonist

I have been given the answer and that is a resounding "We dont know"?

No, that is not true. You have just been told we have our best answer but we can't yet prove it. You've had your answer, problem is - you don't like it.

what do you all know?

More than you, it seems.

a reply to: AntonGonist

If I knew that I would be famous.

Einstein has a few theories. You should look into those.

originally posted by: AntonGonist
a reply to: oldcarpy

I didnt say anything about mathematical descriptions of reality not working. Can you stop derailing my thread and finally answer what medium EM waves propagate through?

Not derailing. Space-time. You have already had that answer so please refer to Einstein et al and show us where you think they are wrong. Up to you, you see?

Saaayyyy...... are you the same twinkie that said rockets can't work in outer space because it's a vacuum? I see your point but if you put a hat on it no one will notice.

a reply to: AntonGonist

lol... so "science" is wrong now? Science not knowing is never an excuse, it means as a collective we haven't figured it out yet! You are being a troll.

To answer your "wave" conundrum, it is not my area of specialty, but my layman's understanding is something like this:

Wave's come in a couple "flavours" from memory.

There are your common household variety of wave, like sound waves or ocean waves, that are created by a force acting on physical mediums and propagating through them, when the medium changes, the expression of the wave changes, in the case of a vacuum, propagation ends.

There are also the "field" variety of waves, where the field exists regardless of a propagation medium. These "fields exists and propagate regardless if one of those mediums is a "vacuum", depending on the medium and the field, the expression of the wave may or may not change.

Now, is a vacuum really a vacuum if space time exists in it? Another unanswered question. Go for it champ!

a reply to: oldcarpy

Lol. But I had already eliminated spacetime before anyone responded. Here, once more since you seem to have missed it in my op and several posts after.

What is spacetime?

In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.

A mathematical concept of space and time is not a medium. At best it is a description of a medium. But ok. You now admit that there is a medium that vibrates, called spacetime.

Can you now explain what the difference is between your vibrating spacetime medium and the Aether.

a reply to: boomerdude

This has nothing to do with air or a vacuum. What makes you think it does. Nothing I said, thats for sure.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

There are also the "field" variety of waves, where the field exists regardless of a propagation medium. These "fields exists and propagate regardless if one of those mediums is a "vacuum", depending on the medium and the field, the expression of the wave may or may not change.

You mean there is propagation because a field is the medium.

In the modern framework of the quantum theory of fields, even without referring to a test particle, a field occupies space, contains energy, and its presence precludes a classical "true vacuum".[7] This has led physicists to consider electromagnetic fields to be a physical entity,

So now explain the difference between this field and the Aether.

a reply to: AntonGonist

What do you not understand they have the property of self propagating.

ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES

www.physics.usyd.edu.au...

· Transverse wave.
· An electromagnetic waves is propagated by the oscillations of the electric and magnetic fields. A changing electric field produces a changing magnetic field and a changing magnetic field produces a changing electric field. Thus, an electromagnetic wave is self propagating and does not need a medium to travel through.

Do you have any proof electromagnet waves do not propagate through the vacuum of space.

a reply to: AntonGonist

No... the field is something like magnetism or light, the "aether" for all intents and purposes is is our current model of "space-time"... figuring out further the "substance" of this space-time just isn't important physics currently (also impeded by the fact no-one has conceived of a way to test "space-time" further in the direction of showing an aether). It's not an important question to physics because it doesn't effect our current physical needs to do stuff (ie electricity).

As has been shown to you, there are a couple of other scientific "models" that may include an "aether" but they are not popular currently due to lack of evidence, and there are more rewarding areas of research.

Now, and this is jut me having fun, if we crack something like wormholes or teleportation by accident in some high tech experiment somewhere (essentially figure out some physical property of the universe that is beneficial to humanity, with massive financial ramifications), yet is explainable using our current models, then there would be a huge race to "explain" and exploit the phenomenon.

Something like this could reignite interest in searching further for an aether.

a reply to: neutronflux

Do you have any proof electromagnet waves do not propagate through the vacuum of space.

Do you have any proof that I made such a claim? You read this thread and somehow thought this was a point I made?

What do you not understand they have the property of self propagating.

.......

An electromagnetic waves is propagated by the oscillations of the electric and magnetic fields.

What do you mean selfpropagating. Your own source says its propagating through a medium which are electric fields..........


It is clear that you have no clue at all about what you read.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

Sorry your post is too incoherent for me to decipher something meaningful from.

a reply to: AntonGonist

Then you've just shown yourself to be incapable of having a high-level discussion about these ideas... if you're not going to provide evidence for your claims, then this is a philosophical or social discussion about the direction of scientific research.

You want an answer that doesn't exist... i'm explaining to you why "science" can't be bothered giving you that answer... and the reasons are largely financial... unless a genius like you can crack this problem without millions of dollars of research funding, and claim your Nobel Prize that is!

You're off to a good start on an internet conspiracy theory forum... also because of your congenial nature, winning people to your way of thinking!

Cheers

a reply to: AntonGonist

There is a property inherent to electromagnetic waves that allows them to propagate across a vacuum. Is that false. Thus, they don’t need a medium. It really is that simple. It’s an observed and documented fact.

What is your point? Do you not believe electromagnetic waves travel through the vacuum of space.

a reply to: neutronflux

If you read my thread and have normal reading comprehension skills you would not ask me if that was my point......

It has nothing to do with a vacuum. That would be like arguing that EM waves need air as a medium.

That point is, as explained very clearly, many times before in this thread, that waves are a disturbance of a medium.

In physics, mathematics, and related fields, a wave is a disturbance of a field in which a physical attribute oscillates repeatedly at each point or propagates from each point to neighboring points, or seems to move through space.

So the argument that EM waves need no medium to propagate is not supported by your science or logic. A wave is a disturbance OF a medium. No medium is no wave.

It’s an observed and documented fact

Not according to your science it isnt. Funny how you guys are all over the place with some saying spacetime is the medium while others claim waves need no medium at all. Lol.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

Maybe you can try to formulate a coherent response and actually explain the difference between a field that propagates EM waves, and the Aether. I'm not holding my breath.

originally posted by: AntonGonist
Unless you can explain how waves propagate without a medium, I have just disproven them.

Nobody is required to explain this to you and it's more complex than a single post can explain well. This site from NASA tries to explain but the explanation only scratches the surface, so you need some education to understand the models, a lot more than reading one post.

Anatomy of an Electromagnetic Wave

Electromagnetic waves differ from mechanical waves in that they do not require a medium to propagate. This means that electromagnetic waves can travel not only through air and solid materials, but also through the vacuum of space.

The site also has the answer to your other question about how can waves be particles, the answer is....

WAVES OR PARTICLES? YES!

I'm not going to copy the entire site here, you can read it if you're interested but it's looking more and more like you're not interested in learning but you just want to keep repeating your false premise that electromagnetic waves require a medium.

They don't.

a reply to: AntonGonist

So the same is a misnomer. Like that has never happened. Then lobby to have the name changed. That still doesn’t change the inherent observed properties of electromagnetic waves in that they self propagate.

——Or——

Might be called electromagnetic waves because they are comprised of an electric sin wave and a magnetic component. Usually represented by two sin waves perpendicular to each other. Huh?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Electromagnetic waves differ from mechanical waves in that they do not require a medium to propagate.

Then they are not waves.

A wave is a disturbance of a medium. No medium no wave. Linking to NASA is not going to help you get out of this paradox.

a reply to: neutronflux

Who observed that they self propagate?