What Medium is Propagating Electromagnetic Waves?

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: neutronflux

One public case in which crew have been lost somewhere in space is the Philadelphia Experiment.

Did you actually read the wiki article you are linking to? The Philadelphia Experiment is a fairy-tale.

There was no experiment, neither are there any reports, or actually any corroborating evidence, just a tale from some guy.

a reply to: moebius

I do disagree with your assessment, but respect your right to draw your own conclusions.

a reply to: kwakakev

And the world moved on from a cited mythology that has no evidence of occurring while just in the USA alone over 30,000 people died in traffic accidents last year. On a planet where over 2000 nuclear detonations have taken place.

Take a deep breath kwakakev. It’ll be ok. Unless something like a traffic accident occurs, or a slip in the tub, or an large meteorite comes along, or nuclear annihilation, a dirty bomb, or a gamma ray bust hits earth.....

I think there are more things to worry about than..... what were you worried about again?

a reply to: neutronflux

In the short term the storm area 51 is on my mind. Has got the makings for a perfect storm with the public interest vs state secrets. In the background we have another case of satanic panic starting to emerge with the clinton-epstien link surfacing. The CIA is up to their neck in all of this.

a reply to: kwakakev

The CIA is up to their neck in all of this

That's exactly where we want them to be...

Keep it up

NC

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: neutronflux

In the short term the storm area 51 is on my mind. Has got the makings for a perfect storm with the public interest vs state secrets. In the background we have another case of satanic panic starting to emerge with the clinton-epstien link surfacing. The CIA is up to their neck in all of this.

Oh dear.... we went from discussions of fundamental science... which kwakakev was struggling with, to a full on alien tech conspiracy theory woo... sigh... this place really seems to be going down the #ter since the alt-right moved on in.

I mean it always was a little bit nuts, but this is now a special kind of nuts.


Sooooo Kwakakev, what part of the nature of light don't we understand, to re-iterate, we have about 100 years of data on the nature of light and the physics models that pertain to it with empirical measurements that prove it. You cannot simply state that there is more going on with light simply because you want it to be. Nor can you say that because someone has a 'good heart' that they are right, as though that it is evidence for something. it is not.

The Philadelphia Experiment has all the hallmarks of a hoax, cooked up by a random nut. The origin is basically a story sent to an astronomer and a couple of followup documents that can very very easily be faked. In all the best explanation for it was the Vessel in question, was being degaussed, a practice not in place until then, though is routine these days.

Then Area 51? Area 51 is certainly a top secret testing facility... alien tech though? it is impossible to say but the number of assumptions and the evidence of the last 50 years is basically redicious. If the US had alien tech and was reverse engineering it... the US would not manufacture a single thing outside of its landmass, they would also be able to step in and basically win every conflict they were involved with... hate to break it to you, but that isn't the case. The evidence just doesn't match the observation.

What alien conspiracies appear to be are brilliant methods of misdirection and international poker face. Best example I can give of this was the F19, a aircraft that appeared in magazines, hell even toys were made of it... the craft never existed but was used as a cover while the F1117a was being developed, which was, by all accounts a bleeding edge aircraft, but nothing as good as the F19 was advertised to be.

The thing about all of this is that people who are very easily suggestible fall into these traps meant for other people and by result appear to think that, on the subject of science that we as a race are still banging the sticks on the ground and trying to figure out fire.

We are well beyond that, we don't know everything, but there are many many experiments that we have used to build a coherent, cross checkable model for the universe we have observed so far. You would do yourself a vast favour to actually try and understand that, rather than just making largely incoherent ramblings and repeating buzz words like Quantum, or EM.

We went from EM to wormholes... as though wormholes are a proven observed thing... when they absolutely aren't we have zero proof of their existence. Yet... there you are speaking as though they are matter of fact despite not even understanding basic physics...

originally posted by: moebius
Did you actually read the wiki article you are linking to? The Philadelphia Experiment is a fairy-tale.

There was no experiment, neither are there any reports, or actually any corroborating evidence, just a tale from some guy.

In general I think your thinking is in the right direction, however another perspective is that it could be somewhat like Roswell in that some things happened, which were misinterpreted and exaggerated into mythology which I guess we could call a fairy-tale.

For example, a man explained how he disappeared when people were looking for him and he didn't want to be found, could have generated reports of a disappearance, as discussed here:

Anatomy of a Hoax: The Philadelphia Experiment Fifty Years Later

The author has now interviewed a man who served on a companion ship to the destroyer in question, and who was on the scene the night of its supposed disappearance, which he is able to explain in minute detail.

Also, there were electromagnetic experiments which were intended to render a certain type of "invisibility" to the ships, making them "invisible" to mines or torpedos which operated magnetically. Those are documented degaussing experiments.

So it's not inconceivable those events may have been misunderstood, exaggerated and confabulated from real "magnetic invisibility" experiments to false claims of visual invisibility experiments which never happened, especially by people who didn't understand what was going on in the experiments.

But the facts don't really add up to the claims so it could be a stretch to say those real events may have led to the exaggerated/false claims, so I don't know if they are actually related, I'm only saying I'm not sure I can rule it out.

However I don't understand what any of this has to do with a medium for the propagation of EM radiation.

originally posted by: ErosA433
In all the best explanation for it was the Vessel in question, was being degaussed, a practice not in place until then, though is routine these days.

Yes, I think that's a good possibility for how the mythology originated.

a reply to: ErosA433

this is now a special kind of nuts

Yeah I know we should not make things personal here. Not the first time I broke the rules, soz.

Link to Philadelphia Experiment documents

One piece of evidence that supports something unusual happened is how the surviving crew members needed to be institutionalized. This had a big impact on the community and there lots of evidence around to support it. Being exposed to this strong field appears to have had a significant affect on neurological function.

Like all other similar cases good luck trying to sort out the facts from the fiction. Being able to discuss and find a clear line of thought has helped develop a clearer picture of it all. It is complicated and does take time, all the other comments have helped heaps along the way.

Yeah, its cool how things have changed from EM to wormholes... Whats going on there, hmmm???

originally posted by: kwakakev
Link to Philadelphia Experiment documents

You links merely show there are others who don't understand physics any better than you do, and some of them are quite honest about it, like this source from the link you posted:

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Now, I’m DEFINITELY not well learned in this area of physics or just science, but I’ll try to relay the info as best I can, and hope I don’t screw up too badly. But the theory goes like this, they wanted to make the ship invisible to vision, and to do that u have to bend the light around the object in some way.

Yes light can be bent, and the greater mass-energy content of something the more it can be bent. The problem is whoever wrote this is correct, that they don't understand the science. If he did he would understand that the mass-energy content of the sun given by E=mc^2 is the mass of the sun times c^2, a ginormous number almost incomprehensible on human scales, and yet astronomers struggled to barely detect a tiny shift in the position of stars during eclipse observations in 1920 trying to confirm this light bending. They did but it was such a small amount of bending and so close to the limits of what they could reliably detect that some people questioned the measurements.

A powerful generator in theory can create some energy, but anything done on a human scale would be dwarfed by the sun and that could barely bend light enough to be detected in the eclipse observations in 1920, so it's a complete fantasy that a human scale generator will bend light more than the sun.

One piece of evidence that supports something unusual happened is how the surviving crew members needed to be institutionalized.

What evidence? Who specifically was institutionalized? Where? If people tell you a story like that and you believe it with no evidence, then you need to devote more effort to critical thinking. Did you even read your own links? If anybody needed institutionalizing, maybe it was Carl Allen, who had a history of mental illness?

www.strangehistory.org...

3. The ship’s logs for the Eldridge and Andrew Furuseth state the neither ship was in the Philadelphia Naval Yard in late October of 1943.
4. Crewmembers of the Eldridge who were with the ship from her commissioning until the end of World War II, have stated that they were not a part of any experiment involving invisibility in Philadelphia or any other port.
...
7. Author/Researcher Robert Goerman, researching the subject in the 1970’s, located Carl Allen and uncovered his history of mental illness. It has been theorized that the “Philadelphia Experiment” was a hoax perpetrated by a troubled mind.

a reply to: kwakakev

You like mythology and innuendo more than the results of actual documented scientific research to push your own agenda. Without the effort of having to start your own thread.

a reply to: neutronflux

I guess we had some miscommunication when you asked what I was worried about. I have learned to be comfortable in the gray zone when exploring mysteries. It is good when you do find a solid fact to build on and extent the understanding.

There is a lot of history in mythology, keeping it in context while being aware of its limitations helps with communication at times. We all do have a lot of innuendo to work through, thanks for everyones help.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: neutronflux

I guess we had some miscommunication when you asked what I was worried about. I have learned to be comfortable in the gray zone when exploring mysteries. It is good when you do find a solid fact to build on and extent the understanding.

There is a lot of history in mythology, keeping it in context while being aware of its limitations helps with communication at times. We all do have a lot of innuendo to work through, thanks for everyones help.

So what proof do you have of an aether? And that mythical aether has caused space accidents.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: ErosA433

this is now a special kind of nuts

Yeah I know we should not make things personal here. Not the first time I broke the rules, soz.

Link to Philadelphia Experiment documents

One piece of evidence that supports something unusual happened is how the surviving crew members needed to be institutionalized. This had a big impact on the community and there lots of evidence around to support it. Being exposed to this strong field appears to have had a significant affect on neurological function.

Like all other similar cases good luck trying to sort out the facts from the fiction. Being able to discuss and find a clear line of thought has helped develop a clearer picture of it all. It is complicated and does take time, all the other comments have helped heaps along the way.

Yeah, its cool how things have changed from EM to wormholes... Whats going on there, hmmm???

But thats just it... what evidence, we continuously get the same mantra and yet no evidence I have ever seen, come across or been served ever resulted in any confidence of truth, too much of it appeared to be "Here is some guy who no one has met and no one can tell you what he looks like, giving dead drop style information which is far to spoon fed of an idea with exact information." Let me tell you what scientific research looks like... it looks like sets of often incoherent notes that sometimes solidify into ideas. Any 'insider' information will look like this, notebooks etc. Final reports etc without any working data.... i just don't buy it at all.

The page you sent isn't exactly a credible source, it is a source with a specific narrative and much of what is being discussed, especially with the so called interview hosted there which i have read before is just too out there and fantastical that it reads as a couple of people with a well orchestrated set of leading questions and scripted responses which pass well within to the realms of fiction in a very incoherent manner.

Going from the effects being only outside the ship, then being effects inside, that only 2 people were not affected, except 1 of those vanished leaving only one person account..., only people outside get affected, and yet they go outside and stand around enough to witness all sorts of things... people gettings stuck in steel only when attempting to go back, why not when they first went to 'hyperspace'? the same physical process would occur... Then its all about aliens who somehow needed some 1940s electron tubes and a steel ship to do....something... 'the classic' I have a photo of someone with an alien... that never materialised... Time equations? errrm what? he might as well say "Errrm i have a level 5 force field that means you cant tag me" cant touch me until 2003, oh and by the way im special in some way. The fact that, by his own story Duncan and himself should basically be something like 40 years or so older than him... and yet, iv not even seen good evidence of that either. So yeah... so so so many issues with all of this story.

What likely occurred is that the ship was being degaussed, there was some hearsay around the dock yard from people who didn't have a single clue as to what was happening with the process and someone said "Well its like it will make the ship invisible to mines" at which point the person thought... wow... its going to be actually invisible... and rolled with it.

it is the same story with the whole "LHC will make a black hole" idea.
The history goes pack to the Tevatron in the US, some biologist took a part time interest in reading physics papers, one paper he read was a string theory paper, which i have a hard time believing he understood at all (those are hard enough for actual physics theorists) but his take away message was... blackholes can be made in particle collisions. He then wrote to a Scientist who told him it wasn't going to be a problem. In response because he didn't think he was being taken seriously, he went to the media. Who blew it out of proportion.

Now when ever there has been a high energy accelerator turned on, the whole 'you are going to make a black hole and destroy the world' thing comes back. We can with scientific certainty say that if blackholes are generated, they are not dangerous because by definition the universe is bombarding the upper atmospheres with particles way beyond energies we can reach with an accelerator. The Earth should have been destroyed by now if it was the case. We also do not observe theoretical behaviour of such production.

So what do we do? do we keep going on about this myth? or do we accept science?


On super high magnetic fields... we routinely put people in NMR machines... while long term exposure of the head can result in the movement of salts around the system, if you are susceptible to headaches, it can result in one. Magnetic equipment is extremely dangerous around an NMR machine... There are also machines able to levitate small creatures such as spiders... who come out of the process completely unharmed able to make webs and hunt as they would usually. High electric fields, we have probably less opportunity to test because high electric fields by nature produce spontaneous breakdown and discharge when you get above the breakdown potential for a gas/mix.

a reply to: neutronflux

So what proof do you have of an aether? And that mythical aether has caused space accidents.

Tough question. It has taken me a lifetime of many different sources and applications to help develop the understanding I have. I have not outside sources I can link to help with building your understanding, apart from this website and what has already been discussed.

For proof of something transcending the space of an object, magnets make a good example. This magnetic field is related to electrons, protons and the overall charge of an atom. To make a magnet a voltage is wrapped around the magnet to align all the poles of the electrons. With all electrons pointing in the same direction, it magnifies their individual effect.

a reply to: kwakakev

Based on what long line of experimental results involving the aether was your “lifetime of many different sources and applications to help develop the understanding I have” ?

a reply to: kwakakev

I really didn’t think it’s an understanding, it’s wishful thinking. Please list results of experiments trying to prove there is an aether that support there is an aether.

a reply to: neutronflux

The term aether is used as a framework to help with things we do not know. It has a general reference to explain how radio and light waves travel, is goes through the aether. It can also have a reference to digital data withing the internet cloud, sent that email through the aether.

As for defining and proving just what the aether is for EM waves, we have the photon to work with.

a reply to: kwakakev

I didn’t ask for you to preach about your faith. I asked for proof.

Again.

I really didn’t think it’s an understanding, it’s wishful thinking. Please list results of experiments trying to prove there is an aether that support there is an aether.

a reply to: neutronflux

The work by Sir Isaac Newton in 1665 is an important step in proving the construct of the EM aether. This was achieved by light refraction through a prism.

Another important experiment is the double slit experiment by Thomas Young in 1801. This helps proves the wave nature of light.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: neutronflux

The work by Sir Isaac Newton in 1665 is an important step in proving the construct of the EM aether. This was achieved by light refraction through a prism.

Another important experiment is the double slit experiment by Thomas Young in 1801. This helps proves the wave nature of light.

I can read through this thread. It’s like your acting Arbitrageur has not posted a single post in this thread. Are you going to actually address Arbitrageur’s more informed concerns? Or just keep moving goalposts....