Survive a mass shooting: Run-Hide-Fight

originally posted by: one4all
I had a Pet Rock on my desk

That's nice. One rock isn't worth a **** in a gunfight.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Valid points all of them.

I'm an individualist. I believe you as an individual are the best investor of your money, the best financial planner, the best crisis planner for you.

I started this thread because I couldn't find the specific strategy addressed recently here.

Personally, I take EVERYTHING I get from authority figures and alter it to make it my own. Including survival advice. The folks on ATS who haven't given it much thought, or may be in life circumstances where they find themselves in big institutional spaces can use this thread for a launch pad for developing their own plan.

I was once told by somebody who seemed to know that when a group of people are presented with a dangerous situation, eight out of ten people in the group will freeze up and observe, rather than take action. Which can either be a help or a problem. It's a problem because people will tend to get in your way if you're one of the two out of ten who can move past their initial freeze and take action. It could help, however, since you don't have everybody going crazy and creating utter free=for-all chaos in the situation.

a reply to: Graysen

Oh, I see. My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up.

As an aside, but related to your post (and I don't want to sound like some sadistic dude planning a mass shooting), but couldn't some particularly crazy group of shooters take advantage of the newer layouts? One storms inside, all guns blazing, leading to a frantic exit through the multiple exits outside, running straight out into the open to then be taken down by the other shooter(s) waiting outside, picking them off one by one.

Sounds a bit like a movie, but still. A little far-fetched. Guess it's better to be safe than sorry. And building multiple "threat"/"escape" bunkers in high schools would be way more expensive than simply adding in a few more exits.

a reply to: AnakinWayneII

First of all, multiple accomplices is a completely different scenario, Columbine, San Bernadino and Boston Marathon being exceptions. Most 'crazed murderers' act alone (not all, but most). Multiple shooters is crossing over more into a terrorism event rather than just an active shooter incident.

All the same principles for escape apply, and one should always be wary of such a possibility in their escape, but this type of a scenario adds considerable complexity to an event and subsequent restoration of order. In these types of scenarios there may simply be no escape and the only remaining option is to hide or fight.

a reply to: AnakinWayneII

Front entrance at 2 of my kids schools has a remote controlled lock and a camera. Anyone carrying an object (musical instrument, briefcase) after school has started is met by security and on CCTV while the bag or item is inspected.

The other kids have a foyer that is manned by a sentry who prints an ID sticker with your picture on it that says what you're doing there. (Volunteer -- Hall F)

So a frontal assault won't get you much access to actual kids.

They also have shooter drills, and various codes they broadcast over the PA. I think "Lockout" is they can move around in the building, but no one gets in or out until they stand down. Classes keep going on, but security mans the perimeter and the local PD comes running with guns up

"Lock Down" is where they stop classes and move kids around in the building, away from exits, and clear the building one room at a time. Cops come into the building escorted by security through a side door, and clear the building.

There are other codes; my kids would know them.


***

That's the thing about a hub-and-spoke layout. Someone on a side of the complex can only see parts of 2 "spokes" or wings. The doors are offset, and don't all look the same. Some have a little foyer; some are recessed into the building. you have to actually walk into the courtyard between two "spokes" to see everyone standing there.

While the aggressor is doing that to try and corner a few victims, 500 other kids are leaving by other routes out of the building, and people are watching through the windows, locking doors, talking to the front office, the cops, other teachers, etc.

Shooter is almost always a lone nut / solitary monster.

STEM shooting was a discrete outlier because it included a female, and 2 shooters (tho they acted as one when it came to the violence).

The more people involved in planning a murder, the less likely they can keep it secret.


(EDIT TO ADD). I think every department head or at least someone in each hallway has a 2 way radio



Edit to edit to add:

I think that the newer schools are safe enough that they don't generally evacuate them. With remote-locking doors and camera systems, and communications with each teacher (each has a phone on the desk), and the ability to lock down parts within the school, the kids are almost always safer inside than running out pell mell.

It really disturbs me to think about schools being "designed" to reduce casualties in an active shooter situation! WTF is wrong with people that makes them want to go to a school to commit these acts??? I know the answer, but it just pisses me off to no end! These murderers choose these places (schools, churches, etc.) because they know the vast majority are unarmed including the staff; they're COWARDS!!

Hell, even 3rd World countries are smart enough to post guards armed with machine guns at schools and places of worship. That's why you don't hear about these types of things in those countries! They gun the murderers down before they ever get started.

Kids are the future, dammit! Aren't they every bit as valuable, if not more so, than any armored car, or politician, or jewelry store????

I have had hell working with places of worship to harden themselves. They complain that it invalidates their welcome posture.

I remind them of those cathedrals in Europe, with their 20 ft -thick walls.

They had such a problem that their enemies' name still lives on: Vandals.

We're dealing with modern day vandals, and not mere graffiti artists, either. The reason the Church has such an historic place in western culture, is because it was the only institution to survive the dark ages from what was left of the Roman Empire. The cities of the ancient world dwindled down to a tenth of their Imperial populations. People moved into churches that became monasteries. Or they fled to farmhouses and fortified them into "villas". (where we get our modern terms "Village" as well as... "villain".)

I can see that we are quite possibly descending into a new dark age.

a reply to: Graysen

Nothings is unstoppable. Here’s a few examples off the top of my head.

The kid who disarmed the gun man in the waffle house shooting.

The kid that struggled with the gunmen at the Antioch Baptist church shooting . ( which resulted in the gun man shooting himself )

The man and woman that charged the gunman in the synagogue shooting a few months back .

And the three brave kids who disarmed the shooter at the stem school shooting .


Lives were definitely saved in everyone of those instances.

Do you know with the what they had in common ?

People fought back.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
I was once told by somebody who seemed to know that when a group of people are presented with a dangerous situation, eight out of ten people in the group will freeze up and observe, rather than take action. Which can either be a help or a problem. It's a problem because people will tend to get in your way if you're one of the two out of ten who can move past their initial freeze and take action. It could help, however, since you don't have everybody going crazy and creating utter free=for-all chaos in the situation.

Try and tell that to the arsehole who is now laying unconscious on the ground amidst his teeth littered all round him....because while 8 people froze and waited for their imminent death as he was getting his jollies target shooting ONE TIN SOLDIER launched an egg-sized rock from his 3oclock and scored a direct hit to the side of his face.

I have had loaded firearms pointed at me on more than one occasion … in different reallife live scenarios...life and death every one of them....different people/mindsets with their fingers in front of the triggers every time to …… I froze the first time....after that I did not freeze ever again,once stood wth my eyes wide open facing the threat as I felt a touch and a bullet hole majiclly appeared in my collar---yes that's how fast things happen even when you are paying attention ... those moments can be stretched out sometimes and worked within if you stay cool and think fast but act slow and controlled you have to disconnect your instinctive body movements absolutely but keep talking or communicating in any way you can...and you must be ready to commit al-in in a flash if the chance presents itself….its a gamble every time....you can skew the odds but its always still a gamble big time.

While you conceal carry guys are all trying to figure out who to shoot and who not to shoot or are actually shooting each other...or when the shooter is engaging multiple conceal carry cowboys ---- I will be patiently waiting for the dip# to get close enough to my corner that I can lay one on him....and yes there is always a lump in my pocket and its not because I am glad to see anyone in particular I have been carrying rocks since I was a kid....and will till I croak.....really any good guys with guns will be trying to outflank or outthink the shooter as they CLOSE ON HIM....handguns are close-in weapons and surprise is always critical...the lethality of a headshot from an egg-sized rock extends only to my personal throwing range which is not far off of optimal engagement range with a handgun.

I am not kidding when I say 150 egg-sized rocks would take anyone who is not wearing a helmet right the hades out....one single well placed rock is knocking pieces of you off in or all around and you are definitely out of commission and not shooting anything anymore.

You are underestimating the damage this weapon will do to a person immediately...an average person is already skilled at throwing things some very very skilled..and an average person who has played baseball or any throwing sport will be able to really hone and zone in.....bullets kill things and egg-sized rocks kill things.

A rolled up magazine can kill you as can a few tablespoons of water.

Its a one shot thing with an egg-sized rock ….. one to the head and down you go.

Any plan is better than no plan..thats a living breathing fact.

originally posted by: Fallingdown
a reply to: Graysen

Do you know with the what they had in common ?

People fought back.

Yeah. People in range to close with the gunman fought back. (some were killed doing it, because it was worth it if the effort MIGHT succeed).

You know what else they had in common? People who weren't in range to engage got the EFF out.

You know WHAT ELSE they all had in common?

every person involved made the choice to run, hide or fight, based on their assessment of their own unique place in that specific situation. I don' t blame them for the choices they made. I'm thankful for the ones who tried to intervene; but I don't judge the ones who couldn't meaningfully contribute to the effort.

I've been there, have you?

a reply to: Graysen

Yes I’ve been there too, no color bars don’t always work out .

You’re not special.

And you wouldn’t have to be in range. The guy at the synagogue shooting was on the other side of the church when he charged . Furthermore if people would ignore the ignorant run hide fight dogma. Maybe five people would come at the shooter from different directions. You can bet your ass at least two maybe three people will get through . and the other people do not necessarily have to be fatalities .

You pretend if you run or hide you won’t get killed cowering under a table or getting a bullet in the back running .

Unlike you I would rather die on my feet than on my knees .

But go ahead and stick to your plan .

Maybe you’ll get lucky and someone will step up to protect you while you run away .

I’ve given you several instances where the fight strategy worked.

All you’ve done is say fighting back serves no purpose .

originally posted by: one4all
Try and tell that to the arsehole who is now laying unconscious on the ground amidst his teeth littered all round him....because while 8 people froze and waited for their imminent death as he was getting his jollies target shooting ONE TIN SOLDIER launched an egg-sized rock from his 3oclock and scored a direct hit to the side of his face.

Here's what really happened. The guy with the rock stood up, threw it, and it was high and outside. Ball one. The gunner, pissed off, turns and fires a burst of bullets in the rock thrower's direction. Yerrrrrr ooooot!

originally posted by: Fallingdown


All you’ve done is say fighting back serves no purpose .

Nope. never said that.

I HAVE said repeatedly, in multiple ways, that different people have different abilities, different limits. And that in the real world, with real humans, not everyone has the willpower, the self-assuredness, that you have. Telling a third-grade girl that she is going to take a pistol away from some ex-army tweaker wearing body armor, and that she is a coward if she doesn't try, is just irresponsible. worse than useless.

especially if there is someone like you who will represent, and take out the perp so all the children and infirm can get away.

a reply to: Graysen

And that in the real world, with real humans, not everyone has the willpower, the self-assuredness, that you have.

Where did I say everyone should take action ?

Telling a third-grade girl that she is going to take a pistol away from some ex-army tweaker wearing body armor, and that she is a coward if she doesn't try, is just irresponsible. worse than useless.

Really?

You seriously think I’m trying to encourage a third-grade girl to fight a gun man .

Trying to present that as my opinion is ridiculous and desperate .

Maybe it was this quote that confused you .

“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because third grade girls stand ready to do violence on their behalf”


But a 16 or 17-year-old kid could and has made the difference .

With the illogical way you’re going with this discussion. I expect your next reply will chastise me by claiming I meant we should also write it down in brail for the Blind to take the heart . And hit them with their cane .

My point is and has been from the beginning. Don’t program everyone to run hide then fight . You know damn good and well I’m not suggesting everyone should fight .

This discussion has become so nonsensical I can tell the most important thing to you is the last word .

So have at it .

originally posted by: Fallingdown

Really?

You seriously think I’m trying to encourage a third-grade girl to fight a gun man .

Trying to present that as my opinion is ridiculous and desperate .
.

I got there from reading your first post on this thread:

Nope that way you can die with a bullet in your back. At stem high school in Colorado Castillo, Kendrick did the right thing . He died for his friends buddy definitely save multiple lives .


Don’t run, hide, fight .

Ask yourself, would you rather die on your knees or on your feet ?

Fight, fight, fight

.

all the way to this, from your previous post:

You pretend if you run or hide you won’t get killed cowering under a table or getting a bullet in the back running .

Unlike you I would rather die on my feet than on my knees .

But go ahead and stick to your plan .

So forgive me if I took your contempt for people who need something other than what you are advocating, to be, well, contempt.

Some people on ATS actually have 3rd grade daughters, that they cannot be there to protect 24/7. Some people are coming at the problem from a different place than you, and need a workable solution for their kid.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: one4all
Try and tell that to the arsehole who is now laying unconscious on the ground amidst his teeth littered all round him....because while 8 people froze and waited for their imminent death as he was getting his jollies target shooting ONE TIN SOLDIER launched an egg-sized rock from his 3oclock and scored a direct hit to the side of his face.

Here's what really happened. The guy with the rock stood up, threw it, and it was high and outside. Ball one. The gunner, pissed off, turns and fires a burst of bullets in the rock thrower's direction. Yerrrrrr ooooot!

Maybe....lets stretch the narrative a little.....its extremely difficult to hit a moving target with any type of gun even automatic weapons fire unless you are very well trained.....so the because the rockman wasn't brash or brave he waited till he had an angle on the shooter before he threw and he didn't make a rebel yell as he made his move . as a result of being caught off-guard the bullets stitch the floor leading up to the rock hurler catching him in the lower thigh with a flesh wound that drops him to the ground.....meanwhile a 31 year old alcoholic ex-semipro Baseball player with a Golden Glove Award on his nightstand being used as an ashtray who was sitting in the food court visiting his kids while his ex-wife supervised is laying on the floor beside his wife and kids when he sees an egg-sized rock bounce over and hit him on the foot....as he lifts his head to try to see where the shooter is he notices the mans back is turned and he is shooting at something in the opposite direction....and on INSTINCT just like a pick-off throw to 1st base to catch a base-cheating runner the drunk reaches down grabs the egg-sized rock gauges its weight and in one fluid movement a drunk should never be able to make he stands torques his hips twists his torso and lets fly with the throw of his life … which happens to clock said shooter in the back of the skull instantly caving the bone in and dropping him like a hot potato .Just as 2 concealed carry people who were waiting for the right moment come running around the corner to save the day.

Rocks are reusable...unlike bullets.

I have found there are doers and do-ees.....in these types of moments there is an ability for anyone to seize the moment and change the narrative....anyone at anytime...the trick is you must be DOING SOMETHING....then you can control and manifest things how you wish.

I am saying people have to change their habits and begin taking responsibility for their own safety at all times....this means pulling your head out of your arse and actually planning for these scenarios and practicing them.Show me one place in America where you can practice surviving a mass shooting in a public place...and tell me people wouldn't be flooding you with business if you were providing such a service.I can tell you this much....I know of a box-cutter wielding coward who would have had a rolled up magazine twisted nicely into and then pounded thru his windpipe had things gone better(Pet Rocks might not be allowed on flight).I would have walked down that aisle looking that plick in the eye telling him exactly what I was about to do with him....letting him know full well that he only gets to take one person with him because in ten more steps I am going to expedite his quest to find his maker....you only have to value your own life more than anyone elses and then act on that valuation....I want to save me therefore I shall save you …. less about heroism and more about survival.

Reality says running is not an option with guns in play in many cases....close range action is unique....all you will do is take a bullet in the back...you cannot outrun bullets but you can out think shooters. ...ya gotta keep your face into the wind and think on your feet....that is if you can get them to move....because I have experienced a fixation with the black hole that is the end of a loaded gun barrel when it is pointed at me and once you become fixated on a possible outcome you are sucked into a black-hole you cannot break free of....your feet can become welded to the floor.....there is a disconnect between your intentions and abilities....you freeze up...or rather I have in the past....and how exactly do yo build familiarity with these situations without task specific training?...you have to have already frozen in place to understand how the process works...to respect the dynamic and to learn that any action is better than no action....any plan is better than no plan....and forethought and preparation makes all the difference.

Of course I would rather have a loaded weapon to battle evil but sometimes you have to make lemonade.....especially when you know running is not an option....cornering is but straightaways will get you picked off.

a reply to: one4all

Maybe....lets stretch the narrative a little.....its extremely difficult to hit a moving target with any type of gun even automatic weapons fire unless you are very well trained.....so the because the rockman wasn't brash or brave he waited till he had an angle on the shooter before he threw and he didn't make a rebel yell as he made his move . as a result of being caught off-guard the bullets stitch the floor leading up to the rock hurler catching him in the lower thigh with a flesh wound that drops him to the ground.....meanwhile a 31 year old alcoholic ex-semipro Baseball player with a Golden Glove Award on his nightstand being used as an ashtray who was sitting in the food court visiting his kids while his ex-wife supervised is laying on the floor beside his wife and kids when he sees an egg-sized rock bounce over and hit him on the foot....as he lifts his head to try to see where the shooter is he notices the mans back is turned and he is shooting at something in the opposite direction....and on INSTINCT just like a pick-off throw to 1st base to catch a base-cheating runner the drunk reaches down grabs the egg-sized rock gauges its weight and in one fluid movement a drunk should never be able to make he stands torques his hips twists his torso and lets fly with the throw of his life … which happens to clock said shooter in the back of the skull instantly caving the bone in and dropping him like a hot potato .Just as 2 concealed carry people who were waiting for the right moment come running around the corner to save the day.

WOW!

Now there's some imagination!!