Survive a mass shooting: Run-Hide-Fight

originally posted by: Graysen

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: Asktheanimals

several people who carry concealed eliminating the shooter.

i shall ask again - as i never get coherent replies from other ATS members in previous threads

in the real world - how are the several CCL citizens going to correctly identify the criminal shooter - and not target each other - or be targeted by a second group of CCL citizens further away from the criminal

?????????????

Bystanders with no training or plan tend to freeze in one spot and stare. Looking at what everyone else seems to be looking at is a pretty instinctive cue. People instinctively put their hands up and back.

Shooters hold a gun up, to sight along the barrel or clear obstacles like desks and railings. They also have their hands out in front of them, working the action or clearing jambs. They also tend to stare at their own gun somewhat, especially if it is giving them trouble like jamming or with the upper receiver locked open (empty magazine).

The perp is usually looking around, while everyone else runs. Cops and other intervenors will tend to lock on him. You can think of it as one actor and multiple reactors focused on his behavior.

Multiple perps is always chaos. When there are a lot of collateral casualties, it is almost always from multiple purpetrators.

Nice observations.

I challenge multiple shooters to participate in a Nightclub scenario where everyone is trained in the use of and armed with egg-sized rocks and is also conditioned to not panic to the blank gunfire....say 200 people with 2 rocks apiece to expend at the shooters...remembering that one single square shot to the head with a single rock and the shooter is no longer in play...considering everything generically....the chances of the shooters getting to empty their guns to reload is about the same as a one-legged man winning an arse-kicking contest.

a reply to: Graysen

“Flee” that’s the whole problem as I see it. That’s exactly why people don’t act. It’s because of that stupid phrase .

You’ve got to remember people that pull this crap off are cowards. Most of them are scared.,The army ranger in the synagogue shooting panicked the gunman by running and at him screaming as loud as he could.

I don’t care who’s doing the shooting where they’re doing the shooting at if five people charged especially from different directions 2 to 3 people are definitely going to make it . Which is why more people should fight .

Sometimes you just need to man up and do what’s right .

“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men/women stand ready to do violence on their behalf”

Altered the quote because a woman at the synagogue charge too.

i think about this in my work place.
id grab as many pairs of scissors as I can put in my pockets.
then stand hard up against a wall next to the door... as soon as that door opens I'm like Edward scissor hands for the throat and eyes... after 2 or 3 good hits, I'm grabbing his gun and holding it screaming for others to tackle him


... its better than sitting in a corner praying... god aint going to do squat!

You have to be ready to flip back and forth between run and fight fluidly. Use cover, but I wouldn't straight out hide as that is committing to a course of action that is kind of paralyzing. Hide only works in limited situations, like elevator mentioned or closet with sturdy locking door.

If you hide in room, stay close to the door and be prepared to fight immediately anyone that comes through it. Back corner away from door in room is not good.

Marines were always about fire and maneuver, same applies. Static positions bad. ALWAYS be working for a more advantageous position, always be looking for better cover. Always look to give yourself most advantages for your weapon.

If you have pistol and they have rifle, keep it in doors, closer. If they have pistol and you have knife, or chair, or whatever, you need encounter to happen at 10 feet or less. Throw something and close the distance.

If you are a kid or woman, it is the men there that should carry the bulk of the burden to fight. Run when you can. But if you see the attacker taken down, jump in and help. Hit attacker in head with something, or gouge attacker's eyes, help gain control of weapon.

Don't let guard down just because attacker is taken down, there can always be more.

a reply to: Fallingdown

You mean me personally, or people in general?

Personally, I've got LTC/CCW in multiple states, and am 'almost' always armed. I was at an FBI-led conference on dealing with mass shooters in the past year, and run-hide-fight was discussed (because it remains extremely controversial, within the ranks of US law enforcement.)

The upshot is, the person with the best plan wins.

Most shooters have a fantasy that they have role-played in their heads over and over; and now they are acting it out. In their fantasy, they are an unstoppable force, and everyone cowers in their shadow as they are mown down like so many blades of grass. But that isn't a plan---its a wish. And you rightly point out that many of them (up till recently) have folded when someone proved their wish to be merely a fantasy.

Some others though, like the Naval Yard Shooter, the fort hood shooter, the UT Tower sniper (all with military training...) had robust plans that they adapted as LEOs tried to stop them. Unlike the STEM shooters, who folded almost as soon as they were confronted...

I have a plan for ME. and it isn't run hide fight. But it holds true when I know who else is packing, and where the exits are, and where the shooter probably parked his car. ( like the security/cop who stopped the Garland "draw Mohammad" shooting).

When my kids go to the movies, they haven't formulated a plan based on the area, the denizens, the escape routes. So run hide fight is better than no plan at all.


There is some stuff I left out, even of their version. If my kid is standing next to you when the shooting starts, and you are frozen, he will grab your hand and pull you in the direction of the exit he has chosen. If you don't follow, he drops your hand and goes on ahead. If you follow him, maybe some others will too. If you don't..., well, hey, he tried. And now you are between him and the shooter. so he has a screen as he exits.... But all my kids know to HELP others get out, without waiting for them. We want everyone to survive this, but Devil take the hindmost.

Arbitrarily saying you are ALWAYS going to confront the shooter is as bad as saying you are ALWAYS going to flee, or play dead.

You may be the only person in the crowd who does ANYTHING. So it may be that the best you can do in a specific scenarios is save the dozen people next to you, who follow you around to the service exit behind the bathrooms at the food court. Or you can bum rush the perp anyway, get killed first, and then the others are killed by the dozens, with no one to help now that you are out of the fight.

"it is a bad plan which cannot be altered."
-Publilius Syrus, 1st century BC crisis response planner

A truly complicated subject.

Here's the thing, authorities who teach survival in these types of scenarios (officially) are actually prohibited from teaching people the tactics which really work in a survival situation. The "run, hide, fight" mantra is all fine and good, but the finer points of 'how to run, where to hide and how to fight' are often omitted. There are a number of reasons why they can't/won't teach these things, and no, it's not a conspiracy, it has to do with liability. So, without further ado, I will jump right in...

1. The very first thing a person should do is to put something, anything, between them and the shooter as quickly as possible. The greater the mass of the object the better. This accomplishes two things; one, it robs energy from the shooter's projectiles, and two, it removes you from the shooter's line of sight. Gunfire can easily penetrate walls, desks and doors, etc. but the energy from the projectile is reduced significantly each time it passes through something. Concrete and block is better than sheetrock or a door, but anything is better than nothing.

2. The mentality of a shooter is to take out as many people as possible, so their field of fire will be based on where the majority of people are. In other words, the shooter's fire will follow the largest crowds. This has been proven on countless occasions. So, one of the key things to do in a mass shooting event is to NOT move the same way other people do. Don't fall into the 'herd mentality'. This takes conscious thought and situational awareness. The key is to remove yourself from the focal point of the shooter as quickly as possible. In many cases this can mean a move laterally, even just a few quick steps, which can mean the difference between life and death.

Shooters will often place themselves near a main entrance / exit. They do this because mentally they are thinking about escape for themselves or the fact they know they have to engage their targets as quickly as possible after entering a location. In other words, it's the most convenient location for them. The problem is, the 'herd' mentality of victims is to flee back the same way they came in...which is right into the shooter's field of fire. Don't do this. Instead, step into a side hallway, an 'Employees Only' location like a kitchen or back room. Again, out of sight means out of the line of fire. "Do Not Enter" is only for normal conditions, and an active shooter scenario is not a "normal condition" so all bets are off!

3. Don't try to be Super Man. Save yourself and your loved ones. Trying to do more than this just wastes precious time and makes you vulnerable yourself. Understand that most people won't understand what you are doing, and you certainly don't have time to explain. Yelling "Over Here!...This way!" is only going to train the gunfire on the sound. And now is NOT the time to find out if your range training really worked. Only fight back there is simply no other choice (i.e. a last resort). Dirty Harry only works in the movies, and one sure way to get a shooter to shoot directly at you personally is to fire at them. Save it for when there is no other choice.

4. Be quiet and keep moving. Again, you don't have time to explain your actions to others, you just have to act. Don't draw attention to yourself by yelling or screaming. It accomplishes nothing. And don't stop moving until you are safely out of range. This is not to be confused with panicked running. Shooters will often sweep a scene for targets of opportunity once the majority of the people have fled. This is why staying put in a hiding spot is risky. Keep moving, putting as many obstacles between you and the shooter as possible. This can be corners, or walls, or cars, anything. Be quiet, and keep moving.

5. It's a sad reality, but in today's world situational awareness is critically important. You must continually ask yourself, if something happened right now, where would I go? It needs to be ingrained in your movement. How fast could I get to cover, and what would that cover be? Horizontal movement to escape a situation is okay, but vertical movement is even more effective (if possible). Stairwells make great cover and offer the immediate ability to introduce vertical separation between you and a shooter. Stay out of being in the middle of large open areas, stay on the perimeter of large groups of people, preferably near walls and/or corners. Remember, put as many obstacles of mass between you and the shooter as quickly as possible.

Summary - In a real-world mass shooter situation you would be quietly out of sight within 10 seconds or less. You would keep moving, asymmetrically (laterally or oblique angles), away from a shooter while at the same time putting as many obstacles and as much mass as possible between you and the shooter. You would continue moving until out of range (think: miles not feet). This includes even getting to your car/transportation and leaving the area altogether. You would not attract attention or move in a large group. This is no time for sticking around to see what happens, to tell your story to someone, just LEAVE. You can do all these things later; right now you should have one objective and one only...SURVIVE!

A word about firearms and concealed carry...

The spirit behind 'concealed carry' laws is for the protection of yourself and your immediate loved ones against "grave bodily harm or death". It is not intended to suddenly deputize you or in any way encourage you to engage an active shooter. Furthermore, brandishing a firearm in a large group of panicked people is a really bad idea. YOU know you're one of the "good guys", but no one else does (and this includes law enforcement). In the chaos of an active shooter scenario, running around with a pistol in your hands is a good way to get shot yourself. Keep your firearm concealed until a threat is immediate and imminent to your person.

I would tackle and rape any white guy who shoots 3 or more people in my country. It would get national coverage. If said shooter was a black guy, shooting black people in the wee hours of the morning outside of a club, no one would give a sh##. No one cares who dies, only how one gets deaded. Some lives are more important than others.

Oops, wrong forum. Sorry mods. Keep deep throating that uk$ click stick. This site is gasping and there is no hope. DM for some interesting info about our master host

a reply to: Starhooker

Way to keep it classy!

You should consider changing your name to something like, oh I don't know..."Ass-Clown" maybe??

a reply to: Graysen

there have been several mass shootings where there were armed civilians in situ, and they chose to hide. Virginia tech is probably the best example. They reasoned that the cops wouldn't be able to tell who was a good guy and who was a bad guy, and they didn't want to get killed because they were mistaken for the shooter.

originally posted by: one4all
I am pretty sure that 25 kids all throwing egg-sized rocks at a single shooter head would take the shooter out....just one single solid shot to the bean bag and he is down.....in a Nightclub with 250 adults all throwing egg-sized rocks I think the shooter is dead before he can reload even once....not hurt but dead as a doorknob....a hail of egg-sized rocks that large and its lights out.

Not sure what type of school or clubs you've went to but the ones I attended didn't have rocks laying around the interior.

a reply to: Graysen


Always wondered if the "hide under your tables" advice supplied to schoolchildren was true? Seems a little stupid; you're like a sitting duck.


Harry Nutcase Shooter wanders into Random American High School one day armed with semiautomatic rifles and smoke bombs. He starts wandering from classroom to classroom shooting everyone in sight. You're supposed to just hide under the tables and wait for Harry Nutcase Shooter to blast you to the eight heaven?

What is the actual advice they give to high schoolers in case there is a school shooting?

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
a reply to: Graysen

there have been several mass shootings where there were armed civilians in situ, and they chose to hide. Virginia tech is probably the best example. They reasoned that the cops wouldn't be able to tell who was a good guy and who was a bad guy, and they didn't want to get killed because they were mistaken for the shooter.

I've mentioned that on the other thread I posted in this forum, The risk of defending others

I believe that is a highly individual and highly contextual choice. How much danger are you in if you just hide/save yourself, what do you think your chances really are to end the shooter with no help, and how many people depend on you--both the folks with you in the crisis, and back home. All of that in addition to, will you be mistaken for the shooter.

a reply to: AnakinWayneII

Hide under the desk dates back to the "drop and cover" days of the Cold War and even before. It was also intended for tornadoes and other natural disasters. It was never intended to be a recommendation in an active shooter situation.

The idea behind get under your desk (or drop and cover) was to protect yourself from falling and/or flying debris such as glass and ceiling materials. Flying / falling debris accounts for better than 80% of all injuries in those types of events.

originally posted by: AnakinWayneII
a reply to: Graysen


Always wondered if the "hide under your tables" advice supplied to schoolchildren was true? Seems a little stupid; you're like a sitting duck.


Harry Nutcase Shooter wanders into Random American High School one day armed with semiautomatic rifles and smoke bombs. He starts wandering from classroom to classroom shooting everyone in sight. You're supposed to just hide under the tables and wait for Harry Nutcase Shooter to blast you to the eight heaven?

What is the actual advice they give to high schoolers in case there is a school shooting?

I think you are referring to the "duck and cover" films shown to schoolchildren in the Cold War. THAT was for the overpressure of an atomic blast, not a school shooter.

I'm not going into specifics on a public forum, but there are a couple of programs that are independent and non-profit for schools to use.

There has been a revolution in school architecture since the shootings started after Columbine. The newer schools have

-multiple exits from each classroom (as in, three or for doors) that are locked to outsiders but can be opened by the kids at any moment. They show up in the school office so you can see when a door has been opened.

-shorter hallways, with 90 turns you would make after 4-5 seconds of running.

-"hub & spokes" layout instead of "main hall with side-rooms"

-an outside perimeter that is not long bold lines, but broken up. A person has to walk the whole perimeter to check to make sure there's no hider in the ample places to hide. But shooters are usually desperate, and don't want to commit to walking the perimeter. Authorities CAN expend the effort.

The main thing that has changed is that the kids no longer leave the building in a long line by classes.

I already know I'd be the guy who tries to be a hero and gets killed in the process.

Martyrdom is sort of my thing.

The agencies I'm familiar with have been skeptical of Run-Hide-Fight.

Houston PD went ahead and embraced it, I think because the city council told them too. Here's their vid on the topic

a reply to: Graysen

This is what I was referring to when I said authorities often are prohibited from giving out the advice which really works. Emergency Response Teams want people to stay together in one group (if possible). They don't want people to scatter in all different directions because it makes them harder to control that way. This is the exact same mentality of a shooter, keep everyone bunched up. Authorities also have to, by law, recommend tactics for the masses based on the lowest common denominator of a group of people. They cannot give advice on tactics which the elderly, infirm, handicapped or low-information persons are unable to follow.

This is true for not just active shooter situations, but any emergency situation. Authorities are going to direct people to seek out "well marked and well lit Emergency Exits" every single time...even if it's the furthest distance to travel. They're not going to tell some people to use a dark unlit hallway with a 'Do Not Enter' sign, or an 'Employees Only' sign, even if that's the closest means of escape. They would take on all sorts of liability by doing so.

Equally, authorities are never going to tell you to do something known to be illegal or risky. Something as simple as breaking windows, or stealing potential weapons for protection along your escape route. Instead they're required to tell you the same tired old party line..."Proceed, in an orderly fashion, to your nearest Emergency Exit." They're never going to tell you to ..."Smash, grab, trespass, steal and batter anything which gets in your way of SURVIVAL!"

I use this as an example; I fly a lot (a whole lot) and one of the first things I do on a plane is make sure I know exactly where all the emergency exits are in relation to me, but that's not enough. I also assess the people between me and that exit. If a plane slides off a runway, or some other emergency situation causes the plane to need to be evacuated quickly, the first person in my way who opens the overhead bin or blocks traffic to get their carry-on bag before exiting is getting clobbered and violently thrown out of the way! And I won't think twice about doing it either! This is not advice anyone is ever going to give you, but it could mean the difference between life and death for you and others.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: one4all
I am pretty sure that 25 kids all throwing egg-sized rocks at a single shooter head would take the shooter out....just one single solid shot to the bean bag and he is down.....in a Nightclub with 250 adults all throwing egg-sized rocks I think the shooter is dead before he can reload even once....not hurt but dead as a doorknob....a hail of egg-sized rocks that large and its lights out.

Not sure what type of school or clubs you've went to but the ones I attended didn't have rocks laying around the interior.

I had a Pet Rock on my desk

a reply to: one4all

On a serious note, your suggestion to throw "egg sized rocks" is a really bad idea.

First of all, you're going to have to expose yourself directly to the shooter to have a clear path to throw anything with any force behind it, and secondly you're highly likely to draw fire onto yourself and those around you in the time it takes you to throw something. Just a bad idea. Sorry.

And then there's the part AM stated, "egg sized rocks" are generally not available for throwing in most places, so unless you really want to be a dork and walk around with a pocket full of egg sized rocks all the time, you're going to be crawling around looking for rocks when everyone else is getting the hell out of Dodge City!