Council of Nicea - NO reincarnation, NO books of the Bible

Has anyone checked to see if maybe a second council was conviened? Many myths are based upon fact at some point. It could be that both sides are correct in this debate and there may have been two seprate councils conviened. One recorded, and one at a later date which was not. Just a possibility.

[edit on 6/12/05 by Kidfinger]

How do we go about authenticating documents posted on the internet to be sure they are intact and unaltered?

Before arguing over documents, shouldn't they should be verified as genuine?

[edit on 6-12-2005 by groingrinder]

Greetings,

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Has anyone checked to see if maybe a second council was conviened?

Are you kidding?
Of COURSE it has been checked.
Every single Church Council is known and recorded.

Many myths are based upon fact at some point. It could be that both sides are correct in this debate and there may have been two seprate councils conviened.

There is no evidence for such a council.

One recorded, and one at a later date which was not. Just a possibility.

A Council which left no records?
Where do you think people should "check" for such a council?

The is exactly my point -
some people will believe anything,
because they WANT to believe,
because its "possible"
even if there is NO EVIDENCE.

This is the sort of thinking that claimed lighning was caused by God, that disease is caused by demons - hey - "it's possible."

It's only possible for those who can believe in Santa Claus.

Iasion

Greetings,

Originally posted by groingrinder
How do we go about authenticating documents posted on the internet to be sure they are intact and unaltered?
Before arguing over documents, shouldn't they should be verified as genuine?

Indeed.
I assume you are referring to the Canons and Creed and Letter I cited?

It's true that not everything on the 'net can be trusted - especially in matters of religion.

I checked the Canons etc. at the New Advent site :
www.newadvent.org...

This is a well known site containing all the fathers of the church and the councils - I have never heard any suggestion that this site does not present the documents "intact and unaltered"

If you ARE concerned, you can check it in most large libraries.


Are you trying to suggest that the Council of Nicea DID remove re-incarnation from the Bible?

That someone later TAMPERED with the council records?
AND the various accounts of the council?

Iasion

I am suggesting nothing. I was merely wondering how I would go about verification of an internet document. I live in a town of about 20,000 and seriously doubt our library would have something on this, but now I will be compelled to check. The early church has a very bad record of trying to keep it's flock ignorant. It also has a long record of unsavory leadership including sex perverts and child molesters, a record that continues to this day. I would be genuinely surprised if the early church was even concerned with the disposition of the souls of its members.

I have read the bible and can find no instance in it where Christ says"WORSHIP ME AND BUILD A RELIGION AROUND ME".

Originally posted by groingrinder
It also has a long record of unsavory leadership including sex perverts and child molesters, a record that continues to this day. I would be genuinely surprised if the early church was even concerned with the disposition of the souls of its members.

A record is something written. Let us see this record to which you refer.

Speaking of records, the early church was recorded. This is the book of Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and so on and so on until Revelations. There's 22 books in all of the early church, collect them all! Read about all the struggle, problems, triumphs and miracles and get your copy today! Don't have the money, no problem! I'll send you mine.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

Sorry just to but in without intro, but your subject on the removal of certain text's from Scripture relating to the form of reincarnation, is all vary simple when the process of reincarnation relate's to the mental acheivement of Metempsychosis, remote viewing, and Syneasthsia related condition's, one of which is depression.
So the real formula the Council of Nicea are retaining, is the right hemisphere "BOSS' system, that evenly distribute's neural activity in both hemisphere's of the brain.
Maybe, if you knew more about why the UK Education system removed the same right hemisphere indicator's, by removing Grammar, and Old English, from the common school education system, and also the white serpent, also representing from the Medical Society's Cadaceus rod emblem in the NHS, NIMH, and Mental Health system, and why the Establishment were caught out in 2002, removing the brain's from deseased depressant's without their families knowledge for over 30 year's! then you might see the conspiracy that involve's a system of abuse's that branch's right into the GP's surgey, into the biggest peadophile, and abuse industry run within the UK system on this planet.
The UK government has Third Reich written all over it, and Hitler's deal with Freemason abdicated King Ed, also play's a large part in why there are two system's being run in the UK, one for the public, and one for the Brotherhood of abuse, and all abusing the public system to protect themselve's from exposure. and this include's the police, legal system, justice system, medical system, social service's system, education system, the benefit's system, banking system, etc, etc; right through to the Vatican's 'you scratch our back's, and we'll scratch your's' Fama Fraturnitatis deal with the Freemasons.
So tell me what i don't know!

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by groingrinder
It also has a long record of unsavory leadership including sex perverts and child molesters, a record that continues to this day. I would be genuinely surprised if the early church was even concerned with the disposition of the souls of its members.

A record is something written. Let us see this record to which you refer.

You will have to check the court transcripts for the priest that were convicted of child molestation to see the record. Dont act like they dont exist. They are out there. Funny how a religon that is supposed to be based on love and peace has been represented by men who like to get their rocks off with other little boys.

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by groingrinder
It also has a long record of unsavory leadership including sex perverts and child molesters, a record that continues to this day. I would be genuinely surprised if the early church was even concerned with the disposition of the souls of its members.

A record is something written. Let us see this record to which you refer.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
You will have to check the court transcripts for the priest that were convicted of child molestation to see the record.

With all do respect, I brought my records. Can you please do the work on your end to show how throughout time, a significant percentage of clergy are guilty of child molestation?

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Dont act like they dont exist. They are out there.

It doesn't matters what I 'act' like, it matters what is fact. Besides, how do you know how I'm 'acting'? I don't see much place for emotion in a historical fact or statistical discussion.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Funny how a religon that is supposed to be based on love and peace has been represented by men who like to get their rocks off with other little boys.

Nice prejudicial generalization. Can I have some percentages please? Or, if you can provide the previously requested records, I'll do the extra research for total number and do the math myself.

[edit on 13-6-2005 by saint4God]

Saintforgod, are youi really going to deny these things happened? Are you really going to sit back in your chair and tell me you have not listened to the news? Can you really believe that what I said is not fact?

You have been blinded by your faith.


here is some documentation for you.

here

here

here

here

here

here

here

here

And if this is not enough, here is a page from Metacrawler.com with MANY more links for you to read.

here

read some of that and see if you can deny the facts some more.




[edit on 6/13/05 by Kidfinger]

Thanks Kidfinger, that's what I was asking for. Give me some time to review the documents and I'll be back with you. No I'm not "blinded by faith" . In fact, my faith has made me very receptive to the truth. Something I used to deny before faith, belief, and proof.

[edit on 13-6-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here is some documentation for you.

here

Um. I don't know what this Psycologist has to do with church leaders, molestation or the Trans-Continental Railroad. Is there something I'm missing? Or are you saying I need a psycologist.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

I have to pay to read the article? What a rip-off. *checks pockets for change* Hey Kidfinger, can you spare some change so I can read it?

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

"The Rev. Francis Nelson, 38, is charged with misdemeanor sexual abuse..."

That's 1....well, if he is indeed found guilty. Innocent until proven, so I guess that takes us back to 0.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

There's that "pay me money" page again. Can you send over more change? It's the same site as the second one.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

More change please, same site as the second one again.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

More money, same as #2.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

"In his first legal response to charges that the Rev. Paul R. Shanley began molesting a Newton boy when he was 6 years old, Cardinal Bernard F. Law has asserted that ''negligence'' by the boy and his parents contributed to the alleged abuse. "

So....alleged is it? Still at 0.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

"At least 400 such cases in Southern California have been moved to a single court to streamline legal proceedings and reduce costs, but about 150 cases pending against dioceses in Northern California have proceeded individually....Mahony is scheduled for deposition April 22 in a case against the Diocese of Stockton dating to the late 1970s, when Mahony was bishop there. "

Okay, now we're talking numbers....yet, no convictions. Do I believe some of these involve actual guilty parties? The odds say yes, but still no convictions so we have no definate quantity. How many people are truly guilty? God only knows.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
here

"Attorney Rick Simons, who represents Robert and Tom Thatcher in their suit against the diocese, said in his closing arguments Tuesday morning that the diocese bears full responsibility "for the sexual abuse they suffered" at the hands of Rev. Robert Ponciroli about 25 years ago....Jurors in the courtroom of Alameda County Superior Court Judge Harry Sheppard are expected to begin deliberating Tuesday afternoon. "

This article was dated April 12th. What happened? Is it still under review? Rats, almost had 1 to count as a definate number.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
And if this is not enough, here is a page from Metacrawler.com with MANY more links for you to read.

here

read some of that and see if you can deny the facts some more.

Most of them are that same 'pay as you go' site, so that knocks out half the list. Take out the ones we've already reviewed too. How about instead of me reading allegations, show me some definative convictions? This 'red tape' effect isn't helping anyone. Again, we're talking about "a long record of unsavory leadership including sex perverts and child molesters, a record that continues to this day" as stated by groingrinder, so there's mankind's full timeline.

Let me know when this number goes above 0. We've got a lot of "church leadership" members to calculate throughout history.


[edit on 13-6-2005 by saint4God]

Greetings,

Originally posted by groingrinder
I am suggesting nothing. I was merely wondering how I would go about verification of an internet document. I live in a town of about 20,000 and seriously doubt our library would have something on this, but now I will be compelled to check.

Excellent.
I wish more people here would check their facts :-)

Check you local colleges and libraries - they may have the Fathers of the Church in hard-cover.

Alternatively,
if the net is all you have, then I would try checking the documents from several different sources and compare them.

Of course many early documents have been changed over the years - but I've never heard of the Council records being tampered with - when the church changed doctrine they just produced new documents.


Iasion

Originally posted by saint4God

Let me know when this number goes above 0. We've got a lot of "church leadership" members to calculate throughout history.


[edit on 13-6-2005 by saint4God]

Yep, its official. You faith HAS blinded you. The organized religon of today is nothing but balntent hypocracy and you embrace it without question. God never ment for his teachers to fondel little boys.

You whine about having to pay to join a site..... YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY TO READ THE ARTICLES! Try the free membership option, or did you even make an effort to find the truth. I cant believe that this is really in question. Many convictions have been made and you still deny the truth. Remind me not to ever use you for a babysitter.

SFG, I suspect that because of your moniker you will never understand what God really intended for his children.You are so fervantly willing to believe every word in the bible is truth and every word from a priest is gospel. Dont read the bible unless you need a lesson on how to live your life. If you want to know what God wants from us, then listen to your heart. Dont listen to what some old geez is telling you up from behind a podium of self ritiousness and hypocracy.

[edit on 6/14/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Yep, its official. You faith HAS blinded you.

How so? I'm not Roman Catholic so there's no vested interest in protecting that group. Nor would I protect anyone that has been shown to be wrong. That includes my church, my spouse, child, parents, etc. I love them all, so in that love I would do whatever I could to identify those wrongs and help them recover from them. I'd ask no less from any brother or sister in this world.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
The organized religon of today is nothing but balntent hypocracy and you embrace it without question.

Do you blatently embrace hypocracy? No? What makes you think that I would? Jesus spoke out about hypocracy and I stand beside him on those statements no matter who they are.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
God never ment for his teachers to fondel little boys.

This is true, so show me the teachers who fondel little boys. By the way, one of your links that was remotely on target spoke of a little girls. What of that? Oh wait, we can't talk abuot that can we? We need to prove these priests are homosexual, as if that makes any difference. It's wrong either way if, in fact, any of it is true.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
You whine about having to pay to join a site..... YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY TO READ THE ARTICLES! Try the free membership option, or did you even make an effort to find the truth. I cant believe that this is really in question. Many convictions have been made and you still deny the truth. Remind me not to ever use you for a babysitter.

Free membership if you GIVE THEM ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION. I've dug out junk mail and viruses more times from my computer than anyone could reasonably expect from a PC user. Usually it's for other people though, I've become a bit savvy to giving 'too much information'.

As far as babysitting, I'd expect that I would not be invited to do so since we differ in fundamental beliefs. My child says I'm a great parent though, so that's good enough for me.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
SFG, I suspect that because of your moniker you will never understand what God really intended for his children.

Educate me.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
You are so fervantly willing to believe every word in the bible is truth and every word from a priest is gospel.

FYI - I don't know any priests and disagree with my current "church leadership" on a good number of points already I think. Nice try in trying to stereotype though.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Dont read the bible unless you need a lesson on how to live your life. If you want to know what God wants from us, then listen to your heart. Dont listen to what some old geez is telling you up from behind a podium of self ritiousness and hypocracy.

[edit on 6/14/05 by Kidfinger]

What did I say to bring on this kind of hostility? Why is it I'm being considered a closed-minded, severe person who is worthy of prejudgement and labeling?

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by groingrinder
It also has a long record of unsavory leadership including sex perverts and child molesters, a record that continues to this day. I would be genuinely surprised if the early church was even concerned with the disposition of the souls of its members.

A record is something written. Let us see this record to which you refer.

You will have to check the court transcripts for the priest that were convicted of child molestation to see the record. Dont act like they dont exist. They are out there. Funny how a religon that is supposed to be based on love and peace has been represented by men who like to get their rocks off with other little boys.

What a nasty little post. A handful of perverts abuse the church and its members, and that proves that 10 billion people are all habitual liars?

Don't do this. The allegations anyway are being made by people who think making 14 year old boys available to perverts is perfectly OK.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[edit on 14/6/2005 by roger_pearse]

Originally posted by groingrinder
I am suggesting nothing. I was merely wondering how I would go about verification of an internet document. I live in a town of about 20,000 and seriously doubt our library would have something on this, but now I will be compelled to check.

I agree that verification is a good idea, although I think in this particular case you'll find there is no problem. You should be able to determine which book the site claims to be replicating. (I think this is from a volume of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers series, but look and see which one). You then go to your local library (who won't have the book) and ask for an interlibrary loan. Ask them to advise you. Tell them your problem, and ask how you can get to see the printed volume.

The early church has a very bad record of trying to keep it's flock ignorant.

I'm afraid this is merely a bit of hatespeech doing the rounds.

It also has a long record of unsavory leadership including sex perverts and child molesters, a record that continues to this day. I would be genuinely surprised if the early church was even concerned with the disposition of the souls of its members.

Well, instead of repeating these allegations, made by the powerful in our society against the less powerful, why not verify the facts for yourself?

Accusations of sexual immorality by the one organisation in society opposed to it are a tired old trick whereby the immoral attack the church. I have yet to hear the slightest complaint against sodomites trying to lower the age of consent for young boys. Didn't many US divorce proceedings used to try this sort of tactic at one stage?

I have read the bible and can find no instance in it where Christ says"WORSHIP ME AND BUILD A RELIGION AROUND ME".

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my ..." religion?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[edit on 14/6/2005 by roger_pearse]

Lets try to stay on course guys. Yes it completely goes against nature to withhold sex from a person for their entire life. It is a basic human need on the same levels of food, water and shelter. Sigmeund Freud, one of the greatest physchologists said that almost all mental illnesses are sexual in nature and I completely believe it.

Anyways this is a good post and I am working on digging up some evidence. I just got done reading the Da Vinci code and am tryin to investigate most of the information presented. After all there really were quite a few books that were completely ommitted. Not only that but the bible's account of Jesus leaves a huge gap in his life.

And no one can deny the early churches power struggle and its desire for control over the people. Shaping the bible to suit their own politcal agenda fits with history quite nicely.

And obviously, the church would want to get rid of all traces of the heretical doctrine. They wouldnt even want people to know that people actually believed the heretical doctrine so they wouldnt simply show that their was competition of beliefs. THey destroyed the competition. It would be in their best interest not to display any remains of it because then the actual truth may be revealed.

If the literal interpretation of the Bible is true then:
Nearly 99.999% of the world is going to "hell"
Buddhists,
Muslims,
Jews,
most catholics (seriously according to the literal interpretation)

#1 And some people, "unlucky" to be born in an environment where all they have around them is another religion that isnt the right one and they believe that theirs is right jsut as much if not more than we do, then they are going to hell?

#2 We can blaim everything on Satan since its all his fault there are all theese "fake" religions and bad stuff in the world. Its all Satan's fault, there really is no personal accountability.

#3 There is no alien life. If there was just 1 civilization on just 1 of the billion planets circling just one star within just 1 of the billions galaxies then Jesus would have to go and die for every other conscious beings planet.

#4 Where did salvation come from before Jesus? What were the criteria for people getting into heaven?

#5 Jesus preached forgive your enemies and turn the other cheek. Yet Eve made ONE mistake and brings about eternal damnation for everyone? God holds a higher standard then he holds himself. He holds a mortal being more accountable then he does an omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing being.

I find that believeing that Jesus walked this earth with some pretty profound and radical ideas and thus was able to inspire the people around him much the same way great leaders have throughout the ages makes a lot more sense then all of the above. This is coming from someone that was "born again" for 15 years and actively tried to convert other people.

I will be continuing my research on this topic and will post my results.

Originally posted by saint4God


How so?

Because you refuse to see the truth. You cant even admit that priest have molested children and in the process all but destroyed many peoples faith in organized religon. Let me ask you this. Has a priest been convicted of child molestation? What about 3? 10? 20? The answer is yes, but Im sure you will deny this as well.

This is true, so show me the teachers who fondel little boys.

Agian with denying the truth, as well as ignorance.

Oh wait, we can't talk abuot that can we? We need to prove these priests are homosexual, as if that makes any difference. It's wrong either way if, in fact, any of it is true.

Nice. It doesnt matter what the gender of the child is. It just happens that most of the molested children HAVE been boys. And yes, it happened.

Free membership if you GIVE THEM ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION. I've dug out junk mail and viruses more times from my computer than anyone could reasonably expect from a PC user. Usually it's for other people though, I've become a bit savvy to giving 'too much information'.

Excuses. There is no virus you get from this site. If you dont trust it, then get a free hotmail account for spam. Hell, I'll give you a gmail account just so you have no excuses left to read the truth.

As far as babysitting, I'd expect that I would not be invited to do so since we differ in fundamental beliefs. My child says I'm a great parent though, so that's good enough for me.

I apologise for that remark. It was uncalled for and my frustration with you blantently denying the truth got in the way of my better judgement.

Educate me.

It is quite simple. Do the right thing. Love your neighbors and help when you can. How hard is it? Follow your instincts when making decesions. Your instincts know right from wrong. Do I really need to go on?

What did I say to bring on this kind of hostility? Why is it I'm being considered a closed-minded, severe person who is worthy of prejudgement and labeling?

There was no hostility in my post. You have misread my disgust for organised religon as a personal attack.


I will ask this one more time just to see if you will answer honestly as 'God' would have you do.

Have Priest and clergy members of organised religon been convicted of molesting children? Will you faith allow you to answer that honestly?

Originally posted by roger_pearse
What a nasty little post. A handful of perverts abuse the church and its members, and that proves that 10 billion people are all habitual liars?

This was never said or implied.

Don't do this.

I AM doing this. I will speak out agianst all those sick perverts who think it is ok to use their status in society to take advantage of our children. Further more. the Vatican should be burned to the ground for allowing priest to transfer out of a parish to avoid charges of child molestation.

The allegations anyway are being made by people who think making 14 year old boys available to perverts is perfectly OK.

What are you talking about? The people making these accusations agianst the priest are the ones who were the victems of their sick sexual desires. Who in their right mind thinks its ok to make 14 year olds avalible to perverts? Oh, you are talking about the convicted priest.........

[edit on 6/14/05 by Kidfinger]