quick question about membership and history

I was looking at joining the Mason's but I am catholic and seeing how the Catholic Church banned the Mason's presents somewhat of a problem. Why exactly did the church ban Mason's and what would be some repercussions if I did join the mason's

klooney,

Masonry requires that it's members believe in a Supreme Being. What the member believes ABOUT the Supreme Business is his own business. We're not a religion, we're a fraternity...a "brotherhood" of ALL men. The Catholic Church has taken exception to that.

HOWEVER, I know MANY active Masons who are good, practicing Catholics. This includes a very dear friend of mine who asked me about joining the Masons. I told him that I would sign his petition ONLY if he'd talk with his Parish Priest about it. I offered to go with him if he liked and answer any questions. The Priest told him that the decision was up to him and that if, while going through the process of joining, he saw anything he felt was contrary to his personal faith, he should make the decision to leave.

My friend was Initiated into the First Degree, Passed to the Second Degree and Raised to the Third Degree with me as the presiding officer and to this day he's a fine, upright Mason and a devout Roman Catholic.

All that being said, my advice is...talk to a knowledgeable Mason and talk to your Priest.

Regards,

Originally posted by senrak

**snip**

HOWEVER, I know MANY active Masons who are good, practicing Catholics. This includes a very dear friend of mine who asked me about joining the Masons. I told him that I would sign his petition ONLY if he'd talk with his Parish Priest about it. I offered to go with him if he liked and answer any questions. The Priest told him that the decision was up to him and that if, while going through the process of joining, he saw anything he felt was contrary to his personal faith, he should make the decision to leave.

***snip***

This sounds all too familiar......

I have a friend that was under the same delima. The elders in my lodge gave him the same advice. Talk to your Priest, and he essentially told him the same thing. Obviously the Priest told him that he didn't like the idea, but if that's what he wanted ....

This just makes me wonder...Altho geographically we're not far apart what about 30 miles? If the Catholic church is changing their stance on Masonry or maybe just our Diocese?

I just think that the resemblence is too much to be mere coincidence..

The gentleman I spoke of went through "Blue Lightning" (the term for our one day event) with me and to my knowledge is still a member to this day...

All that being said, my advice is...talk to a knowledgeable Mason and talk to your Priest.

Regards,

Senrak I think that's the best advice anyone could give anyone in that position.

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Golfie] typos/etc

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Golfie]

Originally posted by Golfie
This just makes me wonder...Altho geographically we're not far apart what about 30 miles? If the Catholic church is changing their stance on Masonry or maybe just our Diocese?

I think there are some changes afoot. Not from an "official" stance, but some people (on both sides) are starting to THINK . . .for a change.

I just think that the resemblence is too much to be mere coincidence..

The gentleman I spoke of went through "Blue Lightning" (the term for our one day event) with me and to my knowledge is still a member to this day...

All that being said, my advice is...talk to a knowledgeable Mason and talk to your Priest.

Regards,

Senrak I think that's the best advice anyone could give anyone in that position.

Many thanks! IMO, being open and up-front is always best.

Regards,



[edit on 3-3-2005 by senrak]

Your Catholic, if you want to join a fraternal order and all it's benefits, where there is absolutely no conflict with the Catholic church, why not look into the Knights of Columbus. Let me know what State your in, and I can locate a council near you, for more information.

I'm not of a lesser degree, and I'm interested in becoming Roman Catholic if the Knights of Columbus ceremonial degrees are going to benefit my spiritual progress.

Can I please read the rituals?

Originally posted by akilles
I'm not of a lesser degree, and I'm interested in becoming Roman Catholic if the Knights of Columbus ceremonial degrees are going to benefit my spiritual progress.

Can I please read the rituals?

The ceremonials are not available to those who have not taken the degree beforehand. Usually only the degree teams have copies of the ceremonials of the order. I'm not on a degree team, and even if I was, would never allow them to fall into the hands of a stranger to the order.

There are only a couple Knights of Columbus on this forum. You won't find us readily sharing the ceremonials of the order, we can't divulge this information.

Are the knights of columbus a spinoff of the masons's? Ill check it out ill pm you where I live.

Originally posted by akilles

Can I please read the rituals?

Do you believe you have a right to do so, and if so, why? Not being a Knight of Columbus, or apparently even a Catholic, why would it concern you?

And I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I honestly want to know. Why, in effect, do you think the KofC's are your business? They're certainly not mine, or any other non-Knights.

[edit on 6-3-2005 by Masonic Light]

So you're saying: "Akilles, you don't know what your business is. Doing nothing is equivalent to knowing nothing. So you should do nothing."

Why can't I consider Roman Catholicism purely for the Knights of Columbus ritual degrees, and the experiences I will gain from my initiation?

If I honestly want to look into something, I want to be openly shown, what is so wrong with that? I would hardly skim over the rituals, I wouldn't 'ruin' them for myself (the reason stated for not sharing the ritual with those about to take a degree).

Is that all you can do, is make me sound dishonest merely for asking for a genuine question?

Originally posted by akilles
So you're saying: "Akilles, you don't know what your business is. Doing nothing is equivalent to knowing nothing. So you should do nothing."

No, I'm asking you state why you think that their fraternity's initiation ceremonies are your business.

Why can't I consider Roman Catholicism purely for the Knights of Columbus ritual degrees, and the experiences I will gain from my initiation?

Because the Knights of Columbus is a fraternal organization, and thus Catholicism in itself is not there represented any more than Protestantism is in Masonry, at least in the sense you're talking about.

To make myself clear on this, the Knights of Columbus are all Roman Catholics, but the KofC fraternity is not Catholicism. In like manner, most Masonic Lodge members in the US are Protestants, but Masonry isn't Protestantism.

If I honestly want to look into something, I want to be openly shown, what is so wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with it, but we both know that fraternity's don't show initiation ceremonies to non-members, and this fact, which you're already aware of, is what designates your original question as trolling.

If you don't want to join a frat because you don't know all their ritual beforehand, then by all means, don't join it, I don't think anyone will care. I was merely addressing your apparent belief that you have some right to the private business of others.

Is that all you can do, is make me sound dishonest merely for asking for a genuine question?

Your question was not honest at all. You already know that fraternities don't share their rituals with non-members. If they did, there would be no reason for them; the whole point of ritual is to bind the members together in an experience non-polluted by the outside world, which belongs exclusively to the fraternity in question.

My qualm here is that you don't seem to respect the privacy of others, and try to make such privacy appear nefarious. Your attitude in the matter is something like "Well, if you guys aren't up to no good, why don't you just let me see for myself; otherwise you've got something to hide". But the Knights of Columbus don't owe you an explanation or apology for their existence. They are rightfully proud of their organization and traditions, and the ritual is their own special possession. The same is true of Masonry.

Don't show initation to non-members, so as to not POLLUTE the ritual?

Are you serious?

So I can't read it, and if it was going on, I couldn't witness it?

And you're telling me I couldn't attend any meeting, merely on grounds of my Roman Catholic faith (sometimes mother Mary seduces me in my sleep) if for no other reason than to 'chill' with like-minded males?

So even if I wasn't POLLUTING them with my very presence during a ritual, I could not attend even a regular meeting?

Why is it so bad to claim the only people that benefit from a secret are those participating in it. I mean, would you let a Police Officer in? Why not have an Officer who is not a Knight visit for one meeting?

Again you will label me as an opponent of freedom, and INDIVIDUAL privacy. I am against no such thing! I think if groups wish to conspire, they should atleast have to do so in member's own houses, the reasoning being, you can't have a social group with more members than can fit into atleast ONE of your houses, and there's nothing a social group can't do at an individual's house.

You say, if you don't like it, don't join.

I say, why can't I ask questions before joining? Why can't I go to a meeting and ask questions? Is asking questions some unspoken taboo, can't do it before the ritual, can't do it during, and can't do it after?

Or you just can't tell people the ANSWER to your questions?

Originally posted by akilles
Don't show initation to non-members, so as to not POLLUTE the ritual?

Are you serious?

That is not what I said. The fraternal environment is special to members because it is a group that shares the same ideals and experiences. It would be a pollution of the fraternal environment to share those things which bind them together through experience with non-members, because the bind would be rendered of no effect.

So I can't read it, and if it was going on, I couldn't witness it?

If you were a non-member, of course not. If you were a member, of course you could. Once you yourself had been initiated, you would have the right to read the ritual and see it performed any time you wanted. The right is earned through undergoing the ceremony yourself.

sometimes mother Mary seduces me in my sleep

That Oedipus thing should be dealt with, dude, it isn't healthy.

So even if I wasn't POLLUTING them with my very presence during a ritual, I could not attend even a regular meeting?

Assuming the same thing is true of KofC as for Masonry, meetings are for members only, and membership cards are checked, and compared with drivers licenses, for those visiting that no one knows.

Why is it so bad to claim the only people that benefit from a secret are those participating in it. I mean, would you let a Police Officer in? Why not have an Officer who is not a Knight visit for one meeting?

Why would they? I can't speak for the KofC because I'm not a member, but if a cop wants to attend a Masonic meeting, he must first be regularly initiated, just like the plumber, the carpenter, the accountant, the jazz musician, and the computer programmer.

I say, why can't I ask questions before joining?

You can ask as many questions as you want. And I think I have been more than patient in answering them.

Why can't I go to a meeting and ask questions? Is asking questions some unspoken taboo, can't do it before the ritual, can't do it during, and can't do it after?

This is a distortion, and you know it. You've been asking questions for weeks, and have received answers on all of them. If you don't like the answers, or that they don't confirm your prejudices, that's a completely different subject.

Originally posted by akilles
I say, why can't I ask questions before joining? Why can't I go to a meeting and ask questions? Is asking questions some unspoken taboo, can't do it before the ritual, can't do it during, and can't do it after?

Or you just can't tell people the ANSWER to your questions?

so back onto subject, exactly why did the catholic church ban masonry and is there any time in the future you forsee it being accepted again by the church

Originally posted by klooney
so back onto subject, exactly why did the catholic church ban masonry and is there any time in the future you forsee it being accepted again by the church

The church has already loosened its stance on masonry and (I'm 99% sure) no longer forbids its member from joining. I read a communication from a Cardinal here in the US to one of our Grand Lodges stating that something to that effect. I'll see if I can find the link again and post it.

The following is the Vatican's present stance on Freemasonry

www.vatican.va...

The church still forbids it's members from joining.

Originally posted by klooney
so back onto subject, exactly why did the catholic church ban masonry and is there any time in the future you forsee it being accepted again by the church

several Popes have taken a negative stance on it's memebers joining Freemasonry. There is an encyclical written on freemasonry, called Humanum Genus, which explains why the church forbids membership in it.

The following is Humanum Genus, and explains why....

www.vatican.va...

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
The following is the Vatican's present stance on Freemasonry

www.vatican.va...

The church still forbids it's members from joining.

This is from 1983.

If masonry's rituals are so secretive how can the church take this stance without having proper knowledge on them, or do they?