Some sense on the abortion issue

a reply to: tanstaafl

Hey, Moses, the Patrhiarchy in the west died with the creation of the Pill and no fault divorce.

Chill. Doctors know more than you(oh, I know, you're a 50 year-practice doctor in John Hopkins) and if they say that life, human life as we understand it to be life starts at the cutoff time period women are legally allowed to abort, then I'm going to go with their opinion on the matter instead of the opinion of a middle-aged man whose only concern in the grand scheme of life is to pump away for 2-5 minutes inside of a woman and then be entirely done with the process of creation.

You don't get pregnant. You don't have a creature leeching off you for 9 months, making you already more vulnerable than you are as a woman, and you're not the one risking your life giving birth to a kid. Therefore what you think about abortion is irrelevant because you are part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

And the problem is rich white men believing themselves to have the right to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies. Go to fooking Tehran or Cairo for all I care, you lot will be happy there with the caveman mindeset you have.

a reply to: tanstaafl

I have made it clear many times (but admittedly not in my last comment) that I have no problem with a doctor and the mother deciding to abort if she actually finds herself in a situation where the pregnancy is threatening her life.

Thank you for clarifying that -- not because I thought otherwise, but only because it is pertinent to the discussion.

To that point, however, as my experience shows, many factors -- including arrogance and incompetence -- on the part of healthcare providers may preclude such a possibility. I should have been given that opportunity to terminate my tubal pregnancy, but wasn't. Other risk factors may not be known -- indeed, be impossible to know -- until it's too late.

But that tiny risk does not excuse the wholesale legalization of murder.

Not to parse words, but "murder" specifically refers to deaths not justified under the law. So at this point, we are talking about man's law, not divine law. And man's law is faulty. If an officer of the law can be deemed justified in killing an unarmed innocent civilian because the officer believed his life might be in danger, then why would we not afford the same to women?

On the other hand, in terms of killing as opposed to murder, no one has a right to be born -- as evidence by spontaneous abortions (aka miscarriages). No woman is obligated to have children. I would also add that it's quite hypocritical to demand a higher standard for a fertilized embryo in utero than for fertilized embryos in a fertility clinic, which can be destroyed without any consequence. By definition, would that not be murder also? If not, why not?

Another point never discussed... Every single parent I've ever talked to would give their own lives in defense of or to save their children... In addition, every single mother I've ever talked to, if faced with a decision to kill her baby to save their own life, or to allow the baby to be born knowing it could or even would kill them, they would choose the latter. I can also say that if I were a woman, faced with such a decision, I would do the same.

And I would be one of those women. My daughter-in-law is very grateful (obviously!) that I did not accept my doctor's recommendation to abort my son's pregnancy, which my doctor declared doomed to fail with possible fatal complications for myself. My doctor didn't even think I could get pregnant, much less carry it to term. But I was determined to let nature take its course and do what nature was going to do. Was I brave or stupid? Probably both!!!

But that was MY choice. It was my RIGHT to make that decision for myself (and my child). And while I discussed it with my husband, he also recognized and respected that it was ultimately my decision -- my body, my choice -- and he was ready to support me no matter what I decided.... that crazy man was just as worried about me as he was about our unborn child. Go figure, eh?

I was making the point that it is an extreme, not the norm.

Death is, of course, the "extreme." Nothing else after death! But I would not say it's uncommon, and even if it were, I certainly wouldn't say it is therefore insignificant. And, again, this dismissal of the seriousness for some because it's not a problem for all is one of the reasons I loathe letting government make these decisions. And especially when so much control is exercised over women's health and well-being, often with so little concern for their health and well-being.

We're talking about women going to a doctor and the doctor ripping the baby from her womb, limb by limb.

Unfortunately, this is as at least as much for profit as for the "benefit" of the mother. Baby parts are big business.

But let's say we took it out of the medical establishment's hands. What if the mother used the bounty of nature to terminate her own pregnancy? No doctors wanted or needed. Would you feel differently?

It is definitely a problem, but these severe complications are skyrocketing mostly because the general health of the population is plummeting due to horrible nutritional and lifestyle decisions.

Your point is well taken. And I would add that many are due to having babies later in life when risks increase for both the mother and child. So are we going to micromanage every woman's life to keep her in prime condition for fertility and child-bearing? Are we going to tell women they cannot have babies past a certain age and sterilize them to ensure this doesn't happen?

But I'm not one to trust everything the medical establishment tells us, and especially when it's so easy for them to hide the truth. Every single time we see a doctor, we are putting ourselves in their control. What about medical malpractice? Because too often, the mother's concerns and issues are just blown off by the doctor. Consequently, issues that could have and should have been addressed early are allowed to fester and create greater issues. Other times, doctors themselves create health risks, for example by inducing labor or by performing an unnecessary C-section, which then creates increased risks for complications for future pregnancies.

The bottom line is, we cannot trust all doctors to do the right thing. And there is no way for us to force doctors to do the right thing. So by forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, we would be forcing many women into vulnerable and risky situations at someone else's hands.

To that point, however, as my experience shows, many factors -- including arrogance and incompetence -- on the part of healthcare providers may preclude such a possibility. I should have been given that opportunity to terminate my tubal pregnancy, but wasn't. Other risk factors may not be known -- indeed, be impossible to know -- until it's too late.

Many doctors suffer from god complex. They believe themselves to know everything, and their word is law. No one else knows more than them, and if they, the individual doctor can't fix something in particular, then he believes the problem can't be solved by anyone.

Not to parse words, but "murder" specifically refers to deaths not justified under the law. So at this point, we are talking about man's law, not divine law. And man's law is faulty. If an officer of the law can be deemed justified in killing an unarmed innocent civilian because the officer believed his life might be in danger, then why would we not afford the same to women?

White man thinks he knows everything and that nothing white man does is wrong. Africa begs to differ. South America begs to differ, and Native Americans aren't going to be able to make an apperance because they're almost non-existant. Guess who is the reason for that? Must have been the abortions women were making back then! By the billions I'm guessing!

On the other hand, in terms of killing as opposed to murder, no one has a right to be born -- as evidence by spontaneous abortions (aka miscarriages).

Listen, I moved from the United states of white muslim men to a very old European Country, for several reasons, and lately the govt. of this Country has been trying to incentivate women into having babies.

The Govt. funds sociologists and doctors and statistics experts to come onto live TV to tell these people that unless they start producing babies, their Country and their people will go extinct. They even had a baby party attended by their President to celebrate 200 babies being born in a string of small villages. it's both hilarious and sad, how these folks believe themselves to have the power of gods.

The other day I was reading the most-read and published national newspaper and the politicians and doctors were bemoaning the fact that only 50 years ago, there were fewer 18 year old people as there are today, and that the average citizen is like 70 years old.

I'm reading all of this on the newspapers and watching it on the daily news, and I'm laughing and thinking to myself.

''Who cares. Just import some people from the nearly 8 billion people alive in the world.'' But they don't want to. They want to stay ''pure'' as a nation, I'm guessing.

No woman is obligated to have children. I would also add that it's quite hypocritical to demand a higher standard for a fertilized embryo in utero than for fertilized embryos in a fertility clinic, which can be destroyed without any consequence. By definition, would that not be murder also? If not, why not?

I guarantee you that these middle-aged men would force women into having children(and they would only want attractive women 30 years younger than them) if they could, if things were as bad in the states and in the US for women as they are in India, South America, Africa and in the Middle East.

I'm a dude and one of my ex-girlfriends aborted a fetus we conceived together. I am not interested in having children, as I don't see myself being genetically fit enough to become a dad(under 6 feet tall, and height is inheritable ) and I'm glad women here are free to abort without it being reserved for women in only a few cases. And I'm glad that her parents aren't these conservative old prophets we have on Above top secret who believe themselves to own a woman's body and personal freedom!

Lol apparently the most free Country in the world(The USA) is not so free anymore. Or better yet.It's plenty free. If you are rich and of the right skin color.

a reply to: Ligyron

Many doctors suffer from god complex. They believe themselves to know everything, and their word is law. No one else knows more than them, and if they, the individual doctor can't fix something in particular, then he believes the problem can't be solved by anyone.

This is very true and it's very sad. And it's especially true when it comes to women's reproductive health issues, which are not well researched and not well understood. And women bear the brunt when doctors can't figure it out. Any women suffering with endometriosis can tell you that!!! My daughter was put thru emotional and physical hell when (male) doctors could not figure out what was wrong with her. She was accused of faking, lying, and just wanting attention. One time when I had taken her to the emergency room with clear signs of internal bleeding, when my daughter was barely conscious and in excruciating pain, a nurse literally told her to "keep it down" because she was "disturbing" other patients, and a doctor threatened to refuse to treat her when I simply asked what they hoped to find by doing an CT Scan. I didn't question if it was necessary, just asked what they were hoping to find. The CT Scan tech stepped in to explain it to me, told me the doctor was out of line, and it was a very reasonable question.

I shudder at the thought of forcing women to put their lives in such hands. And there is no way to guarantee it won't happen.

I likewise shudder at the other very possible consequences you mentioned. I'm not one to lump all into one, so I won't blame all White men for what the few White men in power do; rather, I will agree that it is mostly White men in power trying to force their will on women (and everyone). And if they can force their will in one way, they can force it in another way. Once the precedent is set that women's bodies can be controlled in any way, that control can be exercised in every way.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: tanstaafl

Sorry, the law and the US Constitution says you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

Show me in the Constitution where the Federal Government is delegated the power to allow people to be killed for no reason at all, simply out of convenience.

originally posted by: Boadicea
But let's say we took it out of the medical establishment's hands. What if the mother used the bounty of nature to terminate her own pregnancy? No doctors wanted or needed. Would you feel differently?

Ass-u-me-ing you mean taking some kind of herbal or other ingestable that causes a spontaneous abortion - as long as it was early enough in the pregnancy, I'd be ok with it. When it comes to defining 'when does life begin', I've pretty much settled on the same as my State - when the fetal heart beat can be detected, so, around 5 or 6 weeks. After that, I'd have a problem with it... but... that said, as long as no doctor was involved, and no forceps ripping a tiny baby apart in the womb, I'd be much more inclined to agree with someone saying it is the woman's business and hers alone.

Although, my prior comment stands - if the father is around, and willing to shoulder the burden even if the woman isn't interested in marriage, requiring the woman to carry the baby to term should be an option - again, unless the woman's life was in danger.

I would add that many are due to having babies later in life when risks increase for both the mother and child. So are we going to micromanage every woman's life to keep her in prime condition for fertility and child-bearing? Are we going to tell women they cannot have babies past a certain age and sterilize them to ensure this doesn't happen?

Very true - but I'm ass-u-me-ing that this question isn't really aimed at me, since I've never advocated that anyone be forced to get pregnant, or maintain their body in case they do.

But I'm not one to trust everything the medical establishment tells us, and especially when it's so easy for them to hide the truth. Every single time we see a doctor, we are putting ourselves in their control. What about medical malpractice?

True, but there is a big difference between 'the medical establishment', and individual doctors.

I trust individual doctors far more than I would the medical/pharmaceutical industrial complex - the latter I trust exactly 0 ZERO.

The bottom line is, we cannot trust all doctors to do the right thing. And there is no way for us to force doctors to do the right thing. So by forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, we would be forcing many women into vulnerable and risky situations at someone else's hands.

Here again you are reducing everything to the least common denominator, and I have a big problem with that.

Here is where I differ. Each case should be considered individually. Why lump women who are 'healthy as a horse' in with women who are in the extremely risky category when it comes to pregnancy?

On a separate note, I want to thank you for being willing to discuss this rationally and civilly, it is a difficult and emotional subject.

originally posted by: Ligyron
Doctors know more than you(oh, I know, you're a 50 year-practice doctor in John Hopkins) and if they say that life, human life as we understand it to be life starts at the cutoff time period women are legally allowed to abort,

Doctors are just people, and this is a phiisophical question, not one that can be answered better by someone who has a degree, just because they have a degree.

then I'm going to go with their opinion on the matter instead of the opinion of a middle-aged man whose only concern in the grand scheme of life is to pump away for 2-5 minutes inside of a woman and then be entirely done with the process of creation.

And as a father of 3 who takes my responsibilities seriously, I'm going to ass-u-me that you are some pimple faced teenaged punk - or maybe a 25 yr old millennial - still living at home with mama.

You don't get pregnant. You don't have a creature leeching off you for 9 months, making you already more vulnerable than you are as a woman, and you're not the one risking your life giving birth to a kid. Therefore what you think about abortion is irrelevant because you are part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

Or, maybe you're some radical lesbian man hater living at home with mama and her girlfriend?

And the problem is rich white men believing themselves to have the right to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies. Go to fooking Tehran or Cairo for all I care, you lot will be happy there with the caveman mindeset you have.

Can't decide... thankfully it doesn't matter, since your opinion is worth just as much as my vagina.

a reply to: tanstaafl

I'm sure that early American settlers found constitutional justifiation for the murder and enslavement of native Americans and imported slaves, out of convenience.

But, abortion isn't murder, by definition, and murder isn't the issue here. The 4th and the 14th Amendments contain the information you seek.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
I'm sure that early American settlers found constitutional justifiation for the murder and enslavement of native Americans and imported slaves, out of convenience.

They did, as it was already part of their culture.

Thanksfully we have evolved a bit since then...

But, abortion isn't murder, by definition,

but obviously still have a ways to go.

Just because some government beaurorat rearranged some letters, doesn't change the meaning of an act.

a reply to: tanstaafl

I just wrote another long response to you and then poof! The page switched on me and when I hit "back" the response was gone!!! This is so weird.

I'm running short on time now, so I will just suffice it to say that I think we agree far more than we disagree. I have focused on the individual -- what you referred to as the lowest common denominator -- but I see your greater points as well; and you do also see the need to address each case individually. Both perspectives are important.

And a BIG thank you to YOU also. I like these discussions because it helps me see angles and perspectives that I'm not aware of, and because I think it serves the same purpose for others -- including lurkers. Any and every time we (the collective "we") consider making such laws, it's vital that we consider the unintended consequences as well as the intended consequences, the adversities involved as well as the benefits involved.

originally posted by: Ligyron

Lol apparently the most free Country in the world(The USA) is not so free anymore. Or better yet.It's plenty free. If you are rich and of the right skin color.

And a man??

Doctors are just people, and this is a phiisophical question, not one that can be answered better by someone who has a degree, just because they have a degree.

You mean doctors are just people, the people who make sure we don't die at the age of 30 like the average lifespan was for Ancient Egyptians? Doctors are the reason why we survive sickness and illness that would've been guaranteed death hundreds of years ago. What parent wouldn't like his son or daughter to become a doctor?

If degrees don't make someone more qualified to work in an area, to speak of something - they why are millions of students rushing to college to become massively indebted for years and years?

And as a father of 3 who takes my responsibilities seriously, I'm going to ass-u-me that you are some pimple faced teenaged punk - or maybe a 25 yr old millennial - still living at home with mama.

No, I'm an old man, myself.

A couple years short of entering the third decade of my existence. I moved out of my parents house when I was 17 to join the Air Force, and the mortgage of my 4 room 3 bathrooms house near the beach was paid off in full before i was even 25 in fact, these days most guys are so broke and so useless that all it takes to get laid with chicks as hot as Victoria secret models is to have a job.

what guarantee do I have that you take your responsabilities seriously? Can you provide to your kids the same lifestyle Prince William affords his kids? Can you pay off their college debt? Can you buy them their own house like Chinese millionaires do? When I was trekking through China I met 18 year old kids who already had a few condos, a lexus and tens of thousands of disposable money to use a month.

Can you buy your own personal jet like Cristiano Ronaldo? Are your genes worth a damn, meaning are you a world-class soccer player? NBA player?

Were you a twin brother of Sean O'pry?

i.pinimg.com...

Do you make 20 million dollars a year by trotting down a fashion catwalk wearing beach shorts?

What is it that gives you the right to produce new life?

Nothing. You just went ahead and had kids because you're selfish like the majority of men on this earth are, having kids for no reason other than just because their hormones told them to. In any case, I could easily break you in half, even if you were a young man again, so your opinions are of no concern to me. In fact, unless you are Brad Pitt/Cristiano Ronaldo or Floyd Mayweather Jr, don't bother.

Hilarious how we live in a time when we could easily have a human species so beautiful as Brad Pitt and as physically impressive as Henry Cavill, if subpar men(overweight, obese, men shorter than 6 feet, bald men etc) weren't as incredibly selfish as they are, by having children and passing their inferior genes.

Now, if you got the idea that I don't like you, it's because you're right and I really, really don't like you at all.

a reply to: eletheia

Yes, men have it the easiet in America, in fact all you need to do is to take a look at the expanding waistline of the average white man in America and then take a look at the waistline of African men in Africa to figure it out.

originally posted by: Ligyron
"Doctors are just people, and this is a phiisophical question, not one that can be answered better by someone who has a degree, just because they have a degree."

You mean doctors are just people, the people who make sure we don't die at the age of 30 like the average lifespan was for Ancient Egyptians? Doctors are the reason why we survive sickness and illness that would've been guaranteed death hundreds of years ago. What parent wouldn't like his son or daughter to become a doctor?

So, now you like doctors? I thought they were petty tyrant wanna-be's with a god complex?

If degrees don't make someone more qualified to work in an area, to speak of something - they why are millions of students rushing to college to become massively indebted for years and years?

A medical degree is a medical degree, not a degree in philosophy. A doctor with a medical degree is someone who I would want working on me if I experience some form of physical trauma (accident or some such).

But they're the last person I'd go to if I was having some chronic condition, because the only tools they have at their disposal (drugs, surgery, more drugs) are not designed for treating chronic health conditions (arthritis, cancer, dementia, etc).

"And as a father of 3 who takes my responsibilities seriously, I'm going to ass-u-me that you are some pimple faced teenaged punk - or maybe a 25 yr old millennial - still living at home with mama."

No, I'm an old man, myself.

A couple years short of entering the third decade of my existence.

So, which is it? Are you an old man? Or in your late twenties?

these days most guys are so broke and so useless that all it takes to get laid with chicks as hot as Victoria secret models is to have a job.

Yeah, most - not all, but most millenials guys are woke social justice wimps masquerading as men.

what guarantee do I have that you take your responsabilities seriously?

Not that you have any standing to ask me for any guarantees - the fact is, there are no guarantees in life. If you really are an old man, you should have learned that lesson a long time ago.

Now, I probably should just ignore the rest of your silly, childish rants masquerading as questions, but I have a few minutes, so I'll indulge myself...

Can you provide to your kids the same lifestyle Prince William affords his kids? Can you pay off their college debt?

I'm not independently wealthy, no, but I can teach my kids the value of work, to not be afraid of life, to not live beyond their means and avoid debt like the plague, to treat others with respect but be prepared to defend themselves - with deadly force if necessary.

Can you buy them their own house like Chinese millionaires do? When I was trekking through China I met 18 year old kids who already had a few condos, a lexus and tens of thousands of disposable money to use a month.

Yeah, those children of the Commie elites have it really good don't they? Too bad the cost is born by the hundreds of millions living in poverty under a ruling iron fist.

Can you buy your own personal jet like Cristiano Ronaldo?

No, and wouldn't even if I could.

Are your genes worth a damn, meaning are you a world-class soccer player? NBA player?

I could have been. I guess you can't say the same, since you're such a whiny old man.

Today I have zero interest in professional sports, especially football. But I was very athletic and always the best at whatever I attempted - in fact I was on my way to being a pro tennis player when I got sidetracked.

Incidentally, I think it is ridiculous to the point of being obscene in some cases that pro sports players get paid even a hundredth of what they do.

Were you a twin brother of Sean O'pry?

Do you make 20 million dollars a year by trotting down a fashion catwalk wearing beach shorts?

No, thank god. But I'm curious about this fascination of yours with athletic/attractive men. Are you a closet homosexual? Or maybe not even in the closet?

What is it that gives you the right to produce new life?

The fact that I am alive, living in a free country, and have viable sperm.

Nothing. You just went ahead and had kids because you're selfish like the majority of men on this earth are, having kids for no reason other than just because their hormones told them to.

No, I actually had to work pretty hard at it and spend a ton of money, but those details are none of your business.

In any case, I could easily break you in half, even if you were a young man again, so your opinions are of no concern to me. In fact, unless you are Brad Pitt/Cristiano Ronaldo or Floyd Mayweather Jr, don't bother.

Wow, such bravado. Looking more and more like my original (second) guess that you are a pimple faced millennial living in mamas basement might be correct.

Hilarious how we live in a time when we could easily have a human species so beautiful as Brad Pitt and as physically impressive as Henry Cavill, if subpar men (overweight, obese, men shorter than 6 feet, bald men etc) weren't as incredibly selfish as they are, by having children and passing their inferior genes.

Yep, definitely closet homo.

Now, if you got the idea that I don't like you, it's because you're right and I really, really don't like you at all.

Oh, wow, man, now you've gone and hurt my feelings... rotflmao!

Thanks, that was fun... but I have to get to work now, go eat another hot pocket and watch some more gay porn for a while.