Trying to resolve 9/11

a reply to: neutronflux

Sigh.

Quote were I ever said that thermite cannot cut steel.

I asked a simple question:

Me

Can you cite the ignition temperatures for each? Just so we can rule them out as useless.

thermate, thermite and Nano-thermite.

You

The above overly complicated mechanismS would have been made useless by the wide spread fires

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

Sigh.

Quote were I ever said that thermite cannot cut steel.

I asked a simple question:

Me

Can you cite the ignition temperatures for each? Just so we can rule them out as useless.

You

The above overly complicated mechanismS would have been made useless by the wide spread fires

I have cited the temperatures at which thermite ignites. And the temperatures which it burns. Please say I haven’t.

Now.

Can you address....

What free fall. From the first sign of collapse initiation, WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7 all collapsed slower and in a longer time period than if the buildings actually collapsed at the rate of acceleration by gravity through the whole collapse.

Only WTC 7 experienced a very short period of free fall acceleration on the second phase of the faced collapse after the internal East to West progressive collapse of the core. With strong evidence the facade for a short time accelerated faster than the rate of gravity, showing the internal collapse was placing the facade under tension.

Again.

Nobody witnessed the installation of overly complicated mechanisms on the columns in buildings where rental space was a premium.

With no way the mechanisms would survive the wide spread fires and damage from being hit with twin towers debris.

And how many thermite charges are you claiming actuated like the one pictured below?



With no indication such charges actuated on every column on every floor as pushed by the truth movement to achieve the witnessed collapse speed. Especially from the exterior columns right at the WTC 7 windows?

With no indication the steel at the WTC was exposed to temps at which thermite burns.

With the majority of the truth movement claiming the fires at the WTC were never hotter than normal office fires. So I guess there is no evidence that hundreds of thermite initiated fires actuated. Love it when the truth movement contradicts itself.

And the video shows steel from the WTC heavily corroded from sitting in a toxic chemical soup for months. Not steel cut by thermite. The WTC steel doesn’t match the cuts and slagging in the video. So your using a video using false arguments?

However comma. You do understand thermite cuts relativity slowly. And is used to weld metals too. If you do a vertical cut under load with no kicker charge to misaligned the vertical columns. The molten edges would just press together under load. Resulting in at least a cold welding of the different ends together.

a reply to: democracydemo

Oh. You don’t understand the fires would have ruined the insulation on detonator wiring. Causing electrical current to short out before getting to the charge to ignite the magnesium strips. If you could rig electricity to ignite a magnesium strip. Or any electronics that would remotely actuated the device would be ruined by fire. As the remote on the charge. And Fire would play havoc with the springs keeping the charges in place. And you ignored the part about WTC 7 being hit by twin tower debris.

a reply to: neutronflux

I have cited the temperatures at which thermite ignites. And the temperatures which it burns.

Please say I haven’t.

And these ignition temperatures are for the three; thermate, thermite and Nano-thermite?

You have cited nothing.

a reply to: democracydemo

What an intellectually dishonest game. You are in no position to demand anything.

How many “simple” questions have I asked that your dumb and mute on?

You can start with these unanswered questions/points.

Moot point because there is zero evidence of detonations or thermite to prompt an investigation.

Unless....






You can show how the video/ audio evidence is more supportive of a conspiracy fantasy?

Vs cooling and contracting floor trusses pulled in on the outer vertical columns to the point they bowed inward and buckled at the areas of jet impacts. Making it impossible planted charges initiated collapse. The stories above the bowing and buckling fell into the building below.

The pre-collapse inward bowing of WTC2

www.metabunk.org...

The falling mass broke floor connections.

Failure of Welded Floor Truss Connections from the Exterior Wall during Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers
Failure of connections, as a result of overloading, occurred within the heat-affected zone of the base metals

app.aws.org...

Summary
Analysis of the connections supporting the composite floor system of the WTC towers showed that at and below the im- pact floors, the greater majority (above 90%) of the floor truss connections were either bent downward or completely re- moved from the exterior column. This was probably related to the overloading of the floors below the impact region after col- lapse initiation. Depending upon weld joint geometry, detachment of the main load-bearing seats was a result of either fracture in the heat affected zone of the base material (standoff plate detached from spandrel) or through the weld metal (seat angle detached from standoff plate). Failure in both cases was assumed to be a result of a shear mechanism as a result of overloading from floors above impacting those below. There did not appear to be a significant change in distribution of failure modes of the floor truss connections when comparing those connections inside vs. outside of the impact region or those ex- posed to pre-collapse fires and those that were not.

And the vertical columns only tumbled down because of loss of lateral support from the failed floor systems.

9/11 and the Science
of Controlled Demolitions

www.skeptic.com...

3WHAT ABOUT THE ALMOST FREE-FALL COLLAPSE OF THE TWIN TOWERS? The key is the “almost” modifier. If I told you I was making almost $100,000 and you found out I was making only $67,000, you’d say I was exaggerating. So stop exaggerating the collapse speed of the WTC Towers! The 80,000 tons of structural steel slowed down the collapses of the Twin Towers to about ⅔ (two-thirds) of free-fall.3 And the core collapsed at about 40% of free-fall speed, coming down last.4 According to Richard Gage: “To bring a building symmetrically down, what we have to do is remove the core columns.” But on 9/11 the stronger core columns came down last, which violates this supposed most fundamental rule of controlled demolition.

Can you address....

What free fall. From the first sign of collapse initiation, WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7 all collapsed slower and in a longer time period than if the buildings actually collapsed at the rate of acceleration by gravity through the whole collapse.

Only WTC 7 experienced a very short period of free fall acceleration on the second phase of the faced collapse after the internal East to West progressive collapse of the core. With strong evidence the facade for a short time accelerated faster than the rate of gravity, showing the internal collapse was placing the facade under tension.

Again.

Nobody witnessed the installation of overly complicated mechanisms on the columns in buildings where rental space was a premium.

With no way the mechanisms would survive the wide spread fires and damage from being hit with twin towers debris.

And how many thermite charges are you claiming actuated like the one pictured below?



With no indication such charges actuated on every column on every floor as pushed by the truth movement to achieve the witnessed collapse speed. Especially from the exterior columns right at the WTC 7 windows?

With no indication the steel at the WTC was exposed to temps at which thermite burns.

With the majority of the truth movement claiming the fires at the WTC were never hotter than normal office fires. So I guess there is no evidence that hundreds of thermite initiated fires actuated. Love it when the truth movement contradicts itself.

And the video shows steel from the WTC heavily corroded from sitting in a toxic chemical soup for months. Not steel cut by thermite. The WTC steel doesn’t match the cuts and slagging in the video. So your using a video using false arguments?

However comma. You do understand thermite cuts relativity slowly. And is used to weld metals too. If you do a vertical cut under load with no kicker charge to misaligned the vertical columns. The molten edges would just press together under load. Resulting in at least a cold welding of the different ends together.

a reply to: democracydemo

Your traveling a road that is bankrupt of facts, has no evidence, and totally based on pseudoscience.

a reply to: democracydemo

Actually. I have commented on thermate because it burns hotter.

The composition by weight of Thermate-TH3 (in military use) is 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder (such as PBAN). As both thermite and thermate are notoriously difficult to ignite, initiating the reaction normally requires supervision and sometimes persistent effort.

Because thermate burns at higher temperatures than ordinary thermite,

en.m.wikipedia.org...

That brings you back to:

With no indication the steel at the WTC was exposed to temps at which thermate burns.

With the majority of the truth movement claiming the fires at the WTC were never hotter than normal office fires. So I guess there is no evidence that hundreds of thermate initiated fires actuated. Love it when the truth movement contradicts itself.

a reply to: democracydemo

Now for nano-thermite

MICs or Super-thermites are generally developed for military use, propellants, explosives, incendiary devices, and pyrotechnics. Research into military applications of nano-sized materials began in the early 1990s.[2] Because of their highly increased reaction rate, nanosized thermitic materials are being studied by the U.S. military with the aim of developing new types of bombs several times more powerful than conventional explosives.[3]

en.m.wikipedia.org...

There is no evidence that any type of material acting as an explosive created a pressure wave at WTC 7 to sever a column by a pressure transient. Much less all columns. On eight floors. For what should be over 600 detentions to fit Hulsey’s fantasy modeling scenario.

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

The above overly complicated mechanismS would have been made useless by the wide spread fires of WTC 7. And the debris damage from the twin towers.

Jonathan set off simply to prove or disprove these claims:

1. Can Thermitic material melt steel?
2. Can it cut steel horizontally or vertically
3. Does it take massive quentities to do any damage?

A proof of concept, literally backyard-feasible.

He tested all this with thermate, not thermite nor Nano-thermite.

Can you cite the ignition temperatures for each? Just so we can rule them out as useless.

So? Thermate is supposed to be hotter and more energetic than thermite? But the individual did NOT cut the steel column vertically with his thermate piston under ideal conditions. The device only scored the surface of the column. The individual saying the column was cut is false.

Everyone ignores that buildings cannot fall like this, from structural failures due to fire/damage, that's all that matters here.

Arguing over temperatures, methods involved, etc.. are moot.

If a building could fall like that, it would be repeatable, demonstrable, and must abide within our physical laws..period.

a reply to: turbonium1

Everyone ignores that buildings cannot fall like this, from structural failures due to fire/damage, that's all that matters here.

Everyone of importance knows that building CAN fail due to fire damage.
Ask anyone in your local fire department.
Ask them why they fight fires in big box stores (walmart) with aerial hoses only.

If a building could fall like that, it would be repeatable, demonstrable, and must abide within our physical laws..period.

It is repeatable.
History has shown many examples of steel structures failing due to fire alone.
Google the Atlanta I85 collapse. No planes needed.

You really should climb out of the rabbit hole more and look around.

19 years later, doesn't it seem obvious they would lie?

originally posted by: samkent
a reply to: turbonium1

Everyone ignores that buildings cannot fall like this, from structural failures due to fire/damage, that's all that matters here.

Everyone of importance knows that building CAN fail due to fire damage.
Ask anyone in your local fire department.
Ask them why they fight fires in big box stores (walmart) with aerial hoses only.

If a building could fall like that, it would be repeatable, demonstrable, and must abide within our physical laws..period.

It is repeatable.
History has shown many examples of steel structures failing due to fire alone.
Google the Atlanta I85 collapse. No planes needed.

You really should climb out of the rabbit hole more and look around.

A structural failure is one thing, a universal collapse of a structure is a complete fantasy, a fable, with cartoon physics, nonsense answers...

These arguments on what temperatures existed, if steel melted or not, how long it took to collapse, whether or not thermite was used, or if any traces were found at the site, and all the other issues of debate...

I'm not saying they are not valid issues, worth debating, and discussion..they are very valid issues, indeed.


But the only issue to clarify, first of all, is to prove that such a collapse, from only random fire/damage, is impossible. It cannot happen, in any way.

in any degree, whether large or small in area, whatever the extent of fire/damage it was, or was said to be, or type of structure involved, et al...simply doesn't matter, and it avoids the real issue, which they want to avoid, of course. Everyone has to understand this, as it's most important to see.


Every structure has the same physical principles, works within the same physical laws, and there are absolutely no exceptions to those laws, and principles -only one, exact same, physical world exists, it always has, it always will.


Anyone who suggests these buildings were exceptions, to all other structures, is true for ALL structures, which are all different, all unique from one another, in some way, and nothing excuses any of them for being 'unique', or 'unknown before then', or so forth.

And the events are all different, in a structural failure, too. None were ever seen before then, none were special exceptions.


They want to talk about the building, the event, as special exceptions, as a 'unique' situation, and it cannot be replicated, or demonstrated, unless the same structure was built again, and the same events took place, in identical fashion...


When you claim it is repeatable, you point to a structure that did not repeat those collapses, in fact. You cannot. Nobody can.

This is not about two, or three, buildings, which collapsed in NYC, on the same day, even though this story, alone, is a sheer fantasy.


It is all about physics. If the physics are valid, it is repeatable, demonstrable in physical terms.


Structures do not support floors by random luck, or pure chance. Nor do they collapse from those things, either.

The whole purpose of a structure is to support itself, and everything else it was designed to support, to withstand strong winds or heaps of snow on top, if any occur.

Why anyone would claim building supports stronger than any other structure had, which never came close to failure, let alone total collapse, could lose all of it's strength at once?

a reply to: turbonium1

You

But the only issue to clarify, first of all, is to prove that such a collapse, from only random fire/damage, is impossible. It cannot happen, in any way.

Really. So. There has never been a high rise fire related collapse since the WTC?

I think you just posted a blatant falsehood. Shame on you.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: democracydemo

Actually. I have commented on thermate because it burns hotter.

The composition by weight of Thermate-TH3 (in military use) is 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder (such as PBAN). As both thermite and thermate are notoriously difficult to ignite, initiating the reaction normally requires supervision and sometimes persistent effort.

Because thermate burns at higher temperatures than ordinary thermite,

en.m.wikipedia.org...

That brings you back to:

With no indication the steel at the WTC was exposed to temps at which thermate burns.

With the majority of the truth movement claiming the fires at the WTC were never hotter than normal office fires. So I guess there is no evidence that hundreds of thermate initiated fires actuated. Love it when the truth movement contradicts itself.

And so we have the answer, not a straight one but ill take it.

The above overly complicated mechanismS would have been made useless by the wide spread fires

No ignition by the wide spread fires.

That overly comlicated apparatus btw is not to military specs. It was a backyard experiment to prove what this material can do with a budget of about nil.

a reply to: turbonium1

Cognitive dissonance demands that its possessors fool themselves from time to time. Or spend obscene amounts of bandwidth discussing unimportant details. Go figger

a reply to: democracydemo

Sigh.

C4 does not set off in normal office fires. It takes blasting caps. Regular thermite and thermate need something that burns at 3000 degrees Fahrenheit like a burning magnesium strip to set off.

Can you post how nano thermite is set off.

But what totally kills you line of logic. There is no proof random office fire were setting of random detonations cutting steel columns. With no evidence nano thermite that acts like an explosive, or employed like an explosive, was creating pressure waves with the force to cut steel columns. The truth movement fantasy as highlighted by the Hulsey sham requires the instantaneous and simultaneous detonation of hundreds of charges. Something like random detonations from random fires would seriously compromise. With the fires killing the sophisticated detonation system required.

That overly comlicated apparatus

As in debris and fires making unreliable.

btw is not to military specs. It was a backyard experiment to prove what this material can do with a budget of about nil.

It was supposed to be an experiment that shows how thermate can make vertical cut to sever a column. And it failed.

The apparatus that was supposed to show a vertical cut to sever a column didn’t even cut through the face of the column. How do you think an overly complicated mechanism is going to carry out its job after being hit by debris and exposed to fires and sooting. It only removed about 15 percent of the material needed to sever the column 100 percent. And it wasn’t even under a load that would have pressed the molten ends into each other. And you would still need a kicker charge to misalign the column to get “free fall”.

And you still have the below to answer to

How many “simple” questions have I asked that your dumb and mute on?

You can start with these unanswered questions/points.

Moot point because there is zero evidence of detonations or thermite to prompt an investigation.

Unless....






You can show how the video/ audio evidence is more supportive of a conspiracy fantasy?

Vs cooling and contracting floor trusses pulled in on the outer vertical columns to the point they bowed inward and buckled at the areas of jet impacts. Making it impossible planted charges initiated collapse. The stories above the bowing and buckling fell into the building below.

The pre-collapse inward bowing of WTC2

www.metabunk.org...

The falling mass broke floor connections.

Failure of Welded Floor Truss Connections from the Exterior Wall during Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers
Failure of connections, as a result of overloading, occurred within the heat-affected zone of the base metals

app.aws.org...

Summary
Analysis of the connections supporting the composite floor system of the WTC towers showed that at and below the im- pact floors, the greater majority (above 90%) of the floor truss connections were either bent downward or completely re- moved from the exterior column. This was probably related to the overloading of the floors below the impact region after col- lapse initiation. Depending upon weld joint geometry, detachment of the main load-bearing seats was a result of either fracture in the heat affected zone of the base material (standoff plate detached from spandrel) or through the weld metal (seat angle detached from standoff plate). Failure in both cases was assumed to be a result of a shear mechanism as a result of overloading from floors above impacting those below. There did not appear to be a significant change in distribution of failure modes of the floor truss connections when comparing those connections inside vs. outside of the impact region or those ex- posed to pre-collapse fires and those that were not.

And the vertical columns only tumbled down because of loss of lateral support from the failed floor systems.

9/11 and the Science
of Controlled Demolitions

www.skeptic.com...

3WHAT ABOUT THE ALMOST FREE-FALL COLLAPSE OF THE TWIN TOWERS? The key is the “almost” modifier. If I told you I was making almost $100,000 and you found out I was making only $67,000, you’d say I was exaggerating. So stop exaggerating the collapse speed of the WTC Towers! The 80,000 tons of structural steel slowed down the collapses of the Twin Towers to about ⅔ (two-thirds) of free-fall.3 And the core collapsed at about 40% of free-fall speed, coming down last.4 According to Richard Gage: “To bring a building symmetrically down, what we have to do is remove the core columns.” But on 9/11 the stronger core columns came down last, which violates this supposed most fundamental rule of controlled demolition.

Can you address....

What free fall. From the first sign of collapse initiation, WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7 all collapsed slower and in a longer time period than if the buildings actually collapsed at the rate of acceleration by gravity through the whole collapse.

Only WTC 7 experienced a very short period of free fall acceleration on the second phase of the faced collapse after the internal East to West progressive collapse of the core. With strong evidence the facade for a short time accelerated faster than the rate of gravity, showing the internal collapse was placing the facade under tension.

Again.

Nobody witnessed the installation of overly complicated mechanisms on the columns in buildings where rental space was a premium.

With no way the mechanisms would survive the wide spread fires and damage from being hit with twin towers debris.

And how many thermite charges are you claiming actuated like the one pictured below?



With no indication such charges actuated on every column on every floor as pushed by the truth movement to achieve the witnessed collapse speed. Especially from the exterior columns right at the WTC 7 windows?

With no indication the steel at the WTC was exposed to temps at which thermite burns.

With the majority of the truth movement claiming the fires at the WTC were never hotter than normal office fires. So I guess there is no evidence that hundreds of thermite initiated fires actuated. Love it when the truth movement contradicts itself.

And the video shows steel from the WTC heavily corroded from sitting in a toxic chemical soup for months. Not steel cut by thermite. The WTC steel doesn’t match the cuts and slagging in the video. So your using a video using false arguments?

However comma. You do understand thermite cuts relativity slowly. And is used to weld metals too. If you do a vertical cut under load with no kicker charge to misaligned the vertical columns. The molten edges would just press together under load. Resulting in at least a cold welding of the different ends together.

a reply to: neutronflux

So you lied

The above overly complicated mechanismS would have been made useless by the wide spread fires

Temperatures, remember.

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

So you lied

The above overly complicated mechanismS would have been made useless by the wide spread fires

Temperatures, remember.

You cannot even make a sentence to form a credible argument.

Again

C4 does not set off in normal office fires. It takes blasting caps. Regular thermite and thermate need something that burns at 3000 degrees Fahrenheit like a burning magnesium strip to set off.

Can you post how nano thermite is set off.

But what totally kills you line of logic. There is no proof random office fire were setting of random detonations cutting steel columns. With no evidence nano thermite that acts like an explosive, or employed like an explosive, was creating pressure waves with the force to cut steel columns. The truth movement fantasy as highlighted by the Hulsey sham requires the instantaneous and simultaneous detonation of hundreds of charges. Something like random detonations from random fires would seriously compromise. With the fires killing the sophisticated detonation system required.

That overly comlicated apparatus

As in debris and fires making unreliable.

btw is not to military specs. It was a backyard experiment to prove what this material can do with a budget of about nil.

It was supposed to be an experiment that shows how thermate can make vertical cut to sever a column. And it failed.

The apparatus that was supposed to show a vertical cut to sever a column didn’t even cut through the face of the column. How do you think an overly complicated mechanism is going to carry out its job after being hit by debris and exposed to fires and sooting. It only removed about 15 percent of the material needed to sever the column 100 percent. And it wasn’t even under a load that would have pressed the molten ends into each other. And you would still need a kicker charge to misalign the column to get “free fall”.

a reply to: democracydemo

What do you not understand the debris and wide spread fires would make it impossible for a sophisticated ignition system to maintain its integrity to instantaneously and simultaneously detonation hundreds of charges as insisted by the truth movement to cause the witness collapse speed.