Vermont opens door for gender-affirming surgery for transgender youth

a reply to: DanDanDat

but there not your kids...

No, they're not my kids... but doesn't make me deaf, dumb or blind to serious risks... much less apathetic.

...and their parents are making the decision to allow it or not.

No, it's not always the parents' choice or decision... and it doesn't make the decision right or best for the child. Sometimes good parents make mistakes. Sometimes good parents make bad choices because they are misinformed. Sometimes parents do bad things because they're bad people.

There is absolutely no medical necessity for such surgeries. There is absolutely no reason for any parent to make such a decision for their child. Children are not "things" that we own. We don't have the right to remodel our children like we'd remodel a home.

I don't want the government to tell me how I must raise children; so unfortunately that means I can't tell other parents how to raise theirs.

Hmmm... no wiggle room? No possible extenuating or aggravating circumstances???

So you would say or do nothing if you saw a parent beating their child? Giving their child '___'? Pimping their child?

And, of course, by extension, you don't want the government protecting children in danger?

a reply to: DanDanDat

I'm pointing out that you're the one saying parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit. At what point do you draw the line?

You dodged my question. Where is it? Some people question the right to raise children in the parents' faith. Some people question the right to a parent refusing medical care because of their religion.

Where is it? Some people wonder if parents ought to be able to have a doctor chop off their son's penis. Some people question whether or not the mother ought to be chopping the son's penis off on her own. Where is that line?

At what point do you decide the parent no longer has the right to make decisions on how to raise their children?

It's a valid question; just because you didn't like the way I started to couch it doesn't mean it's not. You're the one who said parents have a right to raise their children and left it open-ended.

originally posted by: continuousThunder
a reply to: ketsuko

this is like saying that if some psycho cut their childs face off and made a mask out of it that we should ban facelifts.

Technically, it would be more like some psycho cutting off their child's face and then banning facelifts for children.

I'm leaving out your insults to the other poster, but you've made yourself very clear... you're full of piss and vinegar when talking trash about others, but cat's got your tongue when you are asked very direct and specific questions to clarify yourself.

Yes, I'm still waiting for you to respond to my very direct and specific questions to YOU oh so long ago... No lame excuses necessary or wanted.

a reply to: Boadicea

woah now let's get something straight: those insults were primarily aimed at YOU, and i see absolutely no reason to stick around and explain myself in threads when bitter old women who revel in their own utter ignorance tell me i'm a fraud.

i certainly see no reason to stick around when i try to meet people half way - i come into these threads that are generally little more than pages of ridicule sprinkled with the occasional death threat, and i try to explain something of my life, and all i get from the vast majority of posters is further ridicule. it's not even GOOD ridicule, most of it misses the point by so far it should be in orbit! of course i'm prickly here!
So many times, i've spent real emotional energy giving some insight into how the lives of trans people work and all i get from you is mockery and word twisting.
Why should i stick around for that? Why should i try when you won't?
I have a full and happy life full of rewarding things and i only drop in here when i'm bored to check the UFO sightings, which are these days unfortunately being buried by continual vacuous politicised whining.

You want answers to "direct and specific questions"? you want less piss and vinegar? try treating people like people instead of faceless proponents of some evil agenda. Try not twisting the brutal and horrific murder of a child into the same tired narrative. Try listening for once.

Welp i tried, now i simply must dash - i'm making my girlfriend's favourite pesto tonight and i need to get some fresh basil. i'm gonna be enjoying my big gay life and forgetting ats exists for another couple days, do try not to get too tense when i don't respond immediately.

originally posted by: continuousThunder
a reply to: Boadicea

woah now let's get something straight: those insults were primarily aimed at YOU...

Then make that clear and address them to me. I'm not hiding from you.

... and i see absolutely no reason to stick around and explain myself in threads when bitter old women who revel in their own utter ignorance tell me i'm a fraud.

Awwwww... bitter old woman, eh? LOL!

But to the point, I called you a fraud? No. I have never called you a fraud -- neither directly nor indirectly. If you are referring to the fact that I truthfully and factually insist that no one can change sex, and you believe that you have literally changed your sex, then I'm calling you wrong. If you know that you cannot change sex, but present yourself as such, then you are calling yourself a fraud. Not me. I don't have the knowledge to make that distinction. I don't know enough about you to do so. I can only speak in general terms. Only you know.

Now, do I believe that there are plenty of people -- especially men -- who would pretend to identify as transgender for vile purposes? You betcha! But I have never accused you of that.

i certainly see no reason to stick around when i try to meet people half way - i come into these threads that are generally little more than pages of ridicule sprinkled with the occasional death threat, and i try to explain something of my life, and all i get from the vast majority of posters is further ridicule.

Well, that sure hasn't been my experience. I know virtually nothing about you -- well, beyond the many many insults you've thrown my way. Nor have you ever given consideration to the very real concerns I've researched and sourced and presented. I have basically drawn three very specific red lines, and only because of the harm being inflicted. 1 - No medicalizing children -- no puberty blockers, no cross-sex hormone treatment, no sex reassignment surgeries; 2 - No Self-ID -- sex reassignment and/or certification only with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (and any other issues of course), counseling, and time spent living as the preferred gender; and, 3 -- Maintaining protected spaces for women -- sports competitions, locker rooms, changing rooms, bathrooms, shelters and refuges, etc.

If wanting to protect children and women from harm makes me a "bitter old woman," so be it.... just remember who made me that way.

it's not even GOOD ridicule, most of it misses the point by so far it should be in orbit! of course i'm prickly here!

Yeah, we've all seen some pretty stupid comments. And we've seen some pretty darn thoughtful and reasonable comments. I don't agree with everyone on everything -- no one does! -- but I'm not going to hate on everyone for it. I have said many many times that I have no problem with people living as they want to live. Folks can be as non-conforming as they like. Folks have every right to do for themselves by themselves.

But the Trans Activism has gone too far by imposing far too much on others, and not just trampling their rights, but jeopardizing people's health and safety. And note I am very specific in saying Trans Activism, because I know that not even all transgender and transsexual persons support the current agenda and demands.

So many times, i've spent real emotional energy giving some insight into how the lives of trans people work and all i get from you is mockery and word twisting.

I don't recall ever having a civil comment from you giving insight into the lives of transgender people. But let's assume that you did... What mockery from me? What exactly did you tell me about that I mocked? What words did I twist? How did I twist them? Is it possible that I simply didn't accept your premises and presumptions? That I simply disagreed and explained why I didn't accept your premises/presumptions? For example, if you say "transwomen are women" and I say, "No, transwomen are transwomen." Is that mocking? Am I twisting words?

Why should i stick around for that? Why should i try when you won't?

I am trying. And you know it. All you have to do is compare my words and concerns with the words and concerns of the real haters. I just listed three very specific concerns I have, and I have made it very clear that I am fighting the policies and regs and laws -- NOT transgender people.

You want answers to "direct and specific questions"? you want less piss and vinegar? try treating people like people instead of faceless proponents of some evil agenda. Try not twisting the brutal and horrific murder of a child into the same tired narrative. Try listening for once.

Listening? Really??? I have been listening, and reading, and researching. Just not to the people you want me to listen to and read and research. And why did I start? To understand, when I still had much empathy for transgender people, before I knew and understood the big picture.

Like it or not, I am fighting an agenda -- a political agenda. I am not fighting people. When the harmful political activism stops, I'm happy to walk away and live and let live. Both collectively and individually speaking, I don't want anything from you. You are the one who wants to force changes on the rest of us -- no dissent or disagreement allowed. Trans Activists can find a happy medium with the rest of us, or we can fight it out.

No justice, no peace. Know justice, know peace.

i'm gonna be enjoying my big gay life and forgetting ats exists for another couple days, do try not to get too tense when i don't respond immediately.

No worries -- I won't fret if you never respond. Go enjoy.

a reply to: Boadicea

how about just waiting until they can do all the other legal # like drink, # , have babies ,marry , drive cars, gamble
adopt , get tattoos, smoke tobacco etc

why does this seem to get a pass on the whole legal thing ?

Right so a kid can cut off their dick because they feel they are a girl
but cant smoke cigarettes ,drink alcohol , gamble , or drive a car , or get a tattoo

3 out of those are far more likley to cause damage to their lives than a sec change
yet they arent allowed to do them until 18
yet somehow you can have sex change surgery without being 18

mind boggling and really damaging

but each to their own I guess, it is their life after all
some people will just learn different lessons in different ways

a reply to: sapien82

I don't get it either. Is it the money? Doctors, Big Pharma, etc, pushing this drive to medicalize kids? That's gotta be part of it, but it can't be all. I do know that big bucks have been flowing to a few transgender advocacy groups and organizations from various sources. But why the kids? Why not just focus on the adults, and leave medicalization out of it until they are old enough -- mentally and emotionally and physically mature enough -- to make their own decisions.

I wouldn't even let my son get a tattoo on my watch. I can't imagine allowing this. I totally understand why so many parents are fighting against this medicalization and fighting for their kids.

So wrong....

a reply to: Boadicea

Very, very sinister indeed.

Something is very amiss indeed.

I fear for the future of the United States and the Western World in general...

a reply to: Boadicea

I think it's the mental thing. They want a world where they're normal and rest of us are insane.

a reply to: AnakinWayneII

I fear for the future of the United States and the Western World in general...

Me too. And lots of other people right along with us.

Funny you should use the word "fear" though. I was talking to someone yesterday who told me about a couple girls they babysit and carpool after school. The girls are 9 and 10 if I remember correctly, and attend a charter school. The older girl is a whiz, and is actually learning coding this summer in a special summer course. These girls have been told that if they are afraid of puberty -- developing breasts, having periods, etc. -- that they can stop it... they don't have to go through these changes... it's their choice.

That chilled me to the bone. I don't think any girl wants to have a period, and I'm sure plenty are afraid of going through puberty, but this is just insane! Nothing about all the awful side effects and end results though of course.

This is just reinforcing the "need" for "safe spaces." We are instilling this crippling fear and self-doubt in our kids.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

I think it's the mental thing. They want a world where they're normal and rest of us are insane.

That makes sense. At least for some. Especially the ones with narcissistic personality disorder. It certainly would feed into their narcissism. What better way to stroke the ego than to be a better specimen of a man or woman than to be a transman or transwoman with everyone else all just envious of their awesomepossumness.

The following article is from Februaray 2017 by Kaiser Health News and details the serious adverse effects women are suffering after taking Lupron, the most common puberty blocker:

Women Fear Drug They Used To Halt Puberty Led To Health Problems

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25 year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26 year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

These women were prescribed the drug for precocious puberty, meaning they started puberty too young, and Lupron was used to stop the pubertal process. Lupron has now been approved for precocious puberty, but both this use, and the use for transgender identifying kids, has NOT been studied and has NOT been approved by the FDA for these purposes:

In 2009, an international consortium of pediatricians had warned against such use. Among them was a pediatric endocrinologist, Dr. Erica Eugster, whose research found that puberty-delaying drugs are widely used off label, even though the safety of such prescribing is unproven.

It is a long article, but with much information on the history of use of this drug, including studies and court documents. It is well worth a read to understand the very serious risks associated with this drug.

originally posted by: Boadicea
So, yes, a diagnosis and ongoing treatment is still required for surgery. So, hopefully, no decisions will be made on a whim.

But that only buys a little time before the worst can happen. Puberty blockers are still very risky, as are cross-hormones

the bigger problem, though, is this aspect of the protocol can easily be tweaked out of existence (ie, removing any waiting period or anything else).

Insanity.

originally posted by: ketsuko
What's your opinion on the lesbian couple who cut off their 9-year-old's penis because they claimed he wanted to be a girl, and then later on they stabbed him 12 times and cut him to pieces because he reminded the one of her father?

They are guilty of child abuse and mutilation.

This is a good example of why homosexual couples have no business having children.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Boadicea

Most who go through this as a child grow out of it. This is insanity.

I once wore a wig and went to my aunt when I was 4. I also tried to wear high heels later on out of the curiosity. Damn I'm lucky it wasn't 2019.