Scholar: Archaeology rebuffs effort to erase biblical Israel

Originally posted by CibaiSumerians wrote a story about big flood, the main character in the story could be Sumerian, negro, japs whatever.

What? Oh you are serious.....

Uh, there were no Japs, Negros, Italians, Australians, Kenyans, ........

There were just humans, Noah came MUCH MUCH before.

Originally posted by Cibai
Sadly Catholic/Christian stole the story from Sumerians and claimed the main character Noah belongs to Jews. Shame on you!

Noah was not a JEW nor do they claim that, shame on your ignorance.
Jews did not come about until Abram, and HE was Sumerian.

Catholic/Christian did not come for another 2000 years....

Muhammad another 600 years after that and even he didn't claim Noah was a Jew.

Originally posted by Cibai
Noah ----> Sumerian ----> Catholic/Christian.
And you claimed Noah is yours?

What?

Noah predated Sumer....

Let me make it easy for you, 1st came Adam....then Noah.....then the Flood...then Sumer.....then Abram.....then the Jews.......then the Christ.........then Muhammad.....then the Simpson's.

Originally posted by CibaiPeople are not dumb anymore, religion can no longer fool around. Only twisted minded stay in religion and shout out loud here in this forum that everything is Jews

That makes no sense whatsoever but I will try to answer. You do not believe in religion, fine, but most humans do. So you can take your obvious antisemitism and do some research on the history of the world before ......ah never mind.

Originally posted by edsinger


Let me make it easy for you, 1st came Adam....then Noah.....then the Flood...then Sumer.....then Abram.....then the Jews.......then the Christ.........then Muhammad.....then the Simpson's.

Yessssssssss thank you........ it makes me and everybody easier now.

Jews stole the story from Abram who stole story from Sumerian who stole story from Noah who stole story from Adam.

Which one came out first? The ORIGINAL first OR the fake one first???

Sumerian wrote the story of big flood FIRST, and then Jews copied it and put it in bible. Jews stolen it!
The people who steal are called thief, and JEWS were thieves in this case.

Sumerian tablet predates bible! remember that!

The great flood story was written on Sumerian tablet, and there was no Noah's signature there. You think Noah actually wrote the story and then Sumerian copied it? Do you think it is Noah's AUTOBIOGRAPHY?

J.K. Rowling wrote a story about Harry Potter, and you think J.K. Rowling stole from Harry Potter?
Where could a brain be when it is twisted?


If you agree Noah's was not Jews, somehow he was Sumerian or others, what has it got to do with Jews, bible and Israel? He was a stolen character!

If story of Noah was true, Sumerian will get the credit, not the bible!

And also remember, although there is a record of Noah and great flood, not necessarily it is 100% true!

Is Harry Potter true?


By the way, there is no historical record whatsoever about Adam, beside Sumerian tablet there is NO flood record found. And suddenly Jews came out with a bible with Adam in it, Noah in it but NO credits for SUMERIAN, and mumbo jumbo monkeys.








[edit on 5-8-2007 by Cibai]

[edit on 5-8-2007 by Cibai]

You don't get it, Noah is the name given in the Bible, Gilgamesh was the name in Sumerian lore, the story itself PREDATES Sumer, therefore the Sumerians copied it from somewhere, during Noah's time Sumer had not yet existed.

The writings of Sumer do not necessarily relate to that of the Bible, the Bible was monotheistic whereas Sumer was not. They both do tell of similar stories that were passed down through time.

Originally posted by edsinger
1...You don't get it, Noah is the name given in the Bible, Gilgamesh was the name in Sumerian lore, the story itself PREDATES Sumer, therefore the Sumerians copied it from somewhere, during Noah's time Sumer had not yet existed.

2...The writings of Sumer do not necessarily relate to that of the Bible, the Bible was monotheistic whereas Sumer was not. They both do tell of similar stories that were passed down through time.

1...True, Bible given the name Noah to Gilgamesh after they copied it from Sumerian, they didn't just steal the character but they also changed the name to make it sounds Jews? so the credit goes to Jews.

How did you know the Noah story predates Sumerian?
When did the flood really happened (if it ever existed)? And when did Sumerian wrote it? Someone give the years please.

When you write a book you usually write about the pass which predates you.
You can't say J.K. Rowling stole from Harry Potter, J.K Rowling was the creator of Harry Potter.
So far since there is no other record about the great flood, Sumerian was the creator of the story. They didn't steal from Noah, the name Noah wasn't even existed yet that time till Jews created it!

2... yes they were both different. Jews always like to discredit Egyptian and other civilizations which they stole the story from.

Sumerian tablet predates bible, who stole who???


For example:

Author A wrote a story about a man 500 years ago, he didn't steal from the man!
But then came Author B who wrote the same story. Author B stole from Author A!


Sumerian wrote about the flood, they didn't steal from Gilgamesh. Then came Bible wrote the same story and changed the name to Noah. Bible STOLE from Sumerian!

Originally posted by edsinger
You don't get it, Noah is the name given in the Bible, Gilgamesh was the name in Sumerian lore, the story itself PREDATES Sumer, therefore the Sumerians copied it from somewhere, during Noah's time Sumer had not yet existed.

No, the legend of Gilgamesh isn't the source of the Noah story although it mentions a flood. Bible scholars date the flood at various times -- the "Walking the Bible" production dated it to "prehistory", a vague timeline that could be pushed around as archaeologists and paleontologists discovered older sites of human habitation:
www.pbs.org...

Most think the flood occurred about 2340 BC
www.wordsight.org...

Sumerians had settled in Sumer about 3500 BC and were busy writing laws and books of their own religion:
www.timelines.info...

And in Egypt, the timeline starts at 5,000 BC or thereabouts. Noah's flood would have occurred during the Old Kingdom... and of course there are no records of a flood then:
www.wsu.edu...

I certainly see the correlation between Gilgamesh and Noah, I do think they relate to the same story. As for dating the Flood, that can be relative to ones perspective...

Such as:


Evidence of a Worldwide Flood

Cesar Emiliani explains the results: ”A huge amount of ice-melt water rushed into the Gulf of Mexico and produced a sea-level rise that spread around the world with the speed of a tidal wave.” He adds, “We know this because the oxygen isotope ratios of the foraminifera shells show a marked temporary decrease in the salinity of the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. It clearly shows that there was a major period of flooding from 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, with a peak about 11,600 years ago. There is no question that there was a flood and there is also no question that it was a universal flood” (“Noah, the Flood, the Facts,” Reader’s Digest, U.S. edition, September 1977, p. 133).

Another recent discovery that could have a relation to the inundation of the Gulf of Mexico is the finding by geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman of the sudden flooding of the Black Sea basin around 6,000 to 7,000 years ago (according to their dating). “The salt water,” says Smithsonian magazine, “poured through the deepening channel, creating a waterfall 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls. In a single day enough water came through the channel to cover Manhattan to a depth two times the height of the (former) World Trade Center, and the roar of the cascading water would have been audible at least 100 miles away” (“Evidence for a Flood,” April 2000, electronic version).

An additional evidence of the Deluge being global and not local is the literally thousands of flood stories from around the world. One enterprising historian, Dr. Aaron Smith of the University of Greensboro, North Carolina, became obsessed with classifying all the flood accounts. “As a result of years of labor, he has collected a complete history of the literature on Noah’s Ark. There are 80,000 works in seventy-two languages about the Flood, of which 70,000 mention the legendary wreckage of the Ark” (Werner Keller, The Bible as History, 1980, p. 38).

It is hard to believe that if the Flood were only a local event, there would be 80,000 different accounts of it from around the world that describe it as universal in scope. GN

So surely dating the flood only 3-6000 years ago is not set in stone...




LINK

Originally posted by edsinger

Cesar Emiliani explains the results: ”A huge amount of ice-melt water rushed into the Gulf of Mexico and produced a sea-level rise that spread around the world with the speed of a tidal wave.”

“poured through the deepening channel, creating a waterfall 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls. In a single day enough water came through the channel to cover Manhattan

I thought the bible said it was 40 days and 40 nights raining.

The speed of tidal wave... great, the Noah must have super ship

So actually the flood was POURED through a channel with a volume of 200 times Niagara falls in a single day enough to 2x WTC. Great, again Noah must have super ark. Certainly he did, who cares what ship he got as long as he got God.


It is obvious scientist Cesar Emiliani stole the story from Bible simply because Bible predates Emiliani.

Whatever the scientist found, it is NOT as what bible said. Remember Bible said 40 days and 40 nights. And Noah brought all animals.
Did he bring hermaphrodites? Why bible didn't mention he brought orang-utan? Ah I know, because THERE IS NO ORANG-UTAN in Jews' world.
Did he bring Panda? Nahhh...... forget it...
How about fresh water fish? Ahh no way, there is no space to fit in all aquariums.


I think I am going to write a FACT, REPORTS on recent MAJOR FLOOD in India. I don't steal it from Indian, ok?.
But if tomorrow someone write the same thing as I did, then he/she is a thief.

@Ed how can Noah be Gilgamesh

Even if they were the same person wouldnt they be mentioned both times with the same name?

I find it difficult to understand why the name would be changed to something sounding totally unrelated

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
@Ed how can Noah be Gilgamesh

Even if they were the same person wouldnt they be mentioned both times with the same name?

I find it difficult to understand why the name would be changed to something sounding totally unrelated

Here you go,
The Two Babylons
Please open the pages. This one link doesn't have the illustrations, but maybe another would.
A Superb Read.

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus

Even if they were the same person wouldn't they be mentioned both times with the same name?

My humble opinion.

It is simple, Jews stole the story from Sumerians, changed the name of the character Gilgamesh into Noah ( something sounds Jews ), and then they claimed Jews' is the original.

Some people minds are so twisted to differentiate the original and the fake.

All the lies all the cheats, you know...and they blame others for the sins which is a crime they committed, they are criminals.

Originally posted by Byrd
Bible scholars date the flood at various times --

Most think the flood occurred about 2340 BC


Sumerians had settled in Sumer about 3500 BC

And in Egypt, the timeline starts at 5,000 BC or thereabouts

Thanks for the times/dates/whatever it is.


It seems like bible scholars have twisted minds and could not make up the date. They keep on guessing and guessing to fit their own agenda and orgasm.

And for now, scientists have agreed that Egyptian timeline started at 5,000 BC and Sumerians settled in 3500BC while the old school bible scholar thought the flood was 2,340BC.

I won't be surprised by tomorrow a die hard bible scholar will come out with new timeline. They will be telling you that Noah's flood occured at 6,000 BC so that they can tell you Noah's flood predates Sumerians and Egyptians. They will claim to be the original!

They are the people who never give up, they have spent so much on Catholic/Christian and reaching the point of no return. They have to do everything at all costs to continue the lies and the cheats. And they all go to heaven, while others rots in hell.

Originally posted by edsinger
I certainly see the correlation between Gilgamesh and Noah, I do think they relate to the same story.

You do???

I don't remember Noah running around "like a wild ox" and having intercourse with every female old enough to breed and younger than menopause. Nor do I remember Noah taming a wild man in the wilderness, who then becomes his right hand man.

And I missed the part where Noah went off to fight giants and because of his improper actions, his dearest friend (the former wild man) was killed by the deity. Likewise I missed Noah's search for immortality and his finding the flower that gave it, only to have it eaten by a snake before he ate the herb.

What I summarized here is the tale of Gilgamesh. Perhaps I'm not as familiar with the Bible as you are.

Could you cite some verses for me?

Might want to recheck your sources...

Evidence of a Worldwide Flood

Cesar Emiliani explains the results: ”A huge amount of ice-melt water rushed into the Gulf of Mexico and produced a sea-level rise that spread around the world with the speed of a tidal wave.”

There were no glaciers that melted directly into the Gulf of Mexico, and no flood that scoured the Mississippi basin. We know what rapid flooding looks like... it produces landscapes like The Scablands in Washington.

He adds, “We know this because the oxygen isotope ratios of the foraminifera shells show a marked temporary decrease in the salinity of the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. It clearly shows that there was a major period of flooding from 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, with a peak about 11,600 years ago. There is no question that there was a flood and there is also no question that it was a universal flood” (“Noah, the Flood, the Facts,” Reader’s Digest, U.S. edition, September 1977, p. 133).

The first part is right, but the rise was gradual. The second part is wrong.

Another recent discovery that could have a relation to the inundation of the Gulf of Mexico is the finding by geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman of the sudden flooding of the Black Sea basin around 6,000 to 7,000 years ago (according to their dating). (etc)

Again, a look at the maps will show you that the flooding was only local. The "black sea basin" is a shallow basin and not connected to the rest of the world. And it's sort of disingenuous to try to link an event 7,000 years ago with one 12,000 years ago and try to say they're the same thing.

An additional evidence of the Deluge being global and not local is the literally thousands of flood stories from around the world. One enterprising historian, Dr. Aaron Smith of the University of Greensboro, North Carolina, became obsessed with classifying all the flood accounts.

Many of which occurred in local tribal legends ONLY after Christian missionaries came in and started converting the people. There are sites that record these, and you can clearly see which are original flood legends (and they don't occur everywhere, by the way -- only in places where floods usually happen) and which are Christian transplants.

So surely dating the flood only 3-6000 years ago is not set in stone...

I'm just repeating what hundreds of Biblical scholars claim. It ain't my claim!

Originally posted by Byrd
And in Egypt, the timeline starts at 5,000 BC or thereabouts. Noah's flood would have occurred during the Old Kingdom... and of course there are no records of a flood then:
www.wsu.edu...

7000 - 8000 years ago roughly equates to 5000bc.

Perhaps this could explain the flood myth. Imagine the story's the neolithic survivors from the Atlit-Yam settlement would pass on to their descendants. Throw in some cross cultural mixing with the Egyptians and Sumerians and some mixing of tales and legends. Voila.

nationalgeographic

A massive tsunami smashed Mediterranean shores some 8,000 years ago when a giant chunk of volcano fell into the sea, researchers say.
Waves up to 165 feet (50 meters) high swept the eastern Mediterranean, triggered by a landslide on Mount Etna on the island of Sicily, according to the new study (see Italy map).

nationalgeographic

The researchers also speculate that a Neolithic village just off the coast of present-day Israel was hit by the tsunami.
The well-preserved Atlit-Yam settlement, which due to altered sea levels today lies submerged, "shows evidence of a sudden abandonment" 7,000 to 8,000 years ago, the researchers write.

Originally posted by Cibai
It seems like bible scholars have twisted minds and could not make up the date. They keep on guessing and guessing to fit their own agenda.

The problem is that it's the written version of an oral history, and the account of how long people lived and who begat whom and who is descended from whom only goes back a few dozen generations. When the British dominated the world (and the Bible was held to be the sole measure of truth), then there was little evidence to contradict the story.

Ironically, it was when scientists started looking for evidence that confirmed the Bible (the enslavement of a million Jews in Egypt, for instance) that they found the facts weren't adding up. There weren't records of a lot of Egyptian slaves of any group... and there weren't significant numbers of Hebrew inscriptions (as there should be) or references to them. No evidence of a global flood... and so on and so forth.

And for now, scientists have agreed that Egyptian timeline started at 5,000 BC and Sumerians settled in 3500BC while the old school bible scholar thought the flood was 2,340BC.

Note, please, that there were tribes in all those areas before the civilizations started. So we do have traces of small settlements there (and all over the world.

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Perhaps this could explain the flood myth. Imagine the story's the neolithic survivors from the Atlit-Yam settlement would pass on to their descendants. Throw in some cross cultural mixing with the Egyptians and Sumerians and some mixing of tales and legends. Voila.

Actually, current research indicates it is a Sumerian tale of one of the worst floods of about 2600 BC. There's good evidence for this flood and its wide-ranging impact.
en.wikipedia.org...

Erm, I know I'm not going as far back into (almost mythical) history as many here. But I accept that there have been Jews in that area for a very long time, they are mentioned in sources older and more reliable than the bible. From the depradations of the Assyrians to Cyrus the Great freeing them from Babylonian slavery (and yes that was probably due more to pragmatism than anything else) and returning them to their homeland. He even payed for the rebuilding of the Temple out of his own funds.

Ancient Greek and Roman sources also attest to their presence.

While I might disagree with the policies of modern Israel and how it came about, that area of the middle east is quite simply the Jewish homeland.

Yep i was aware of that Byrd.
Point i was getting at is there's lots of evidence of localised floods going back many thousands of years and not a lot for a global flood. At least not in that era.

Originally posted by edsinger
One thing to keep in mind, the atheist will always deny ANYTHING that projected the Bible as accurate, they cant admit it or their case (if you call it that) loses all merit. Time and Time again...they loose and yet they don't give up.....keep em coming guys!

INDEED.

I realize this is an older thread. But had to give a star to your post.

The rabidly . . . ignorant a-theist positions so fiercely pontificated hereon -90 whatever percent of the time get exceedingly wearying in their persistent, relentless hollowness, baselessness. One gets tired of looking up the refs and the abundant solid evidence to refute such. Many times I just back away from a thread in weary-ness and dismay.

Also, when one does post significant evidence, as you note, it's shrilly ignored and railed against regardless of how much irrationality that takes.

Then we know what Scripture says about The _______ has said in his heart there is no God.

Much appreciate your labors hereon.

God's best to you and your family.

I'm curious about why, exactly, it matters so much if places that exist in th bible actually existed. The Pecos river exists, doesn't mean that the tall tale character "Pecos Bill" has anything to do with it, correct?

We can have ancient Israelite towns and cities without there being a large white-bearded man in a white robe and his curiously nordic-looking Jewish son looking down on us from the clouds, you know? Speaking of, it'd be like saying that the Vinland settlements prove that the tales of the Prose edda are factual.

If it's simply a matter of giving Israel legitimacy, well, there's also proof of the Roman Empire - I don't think anyone's going to let the Italians rule Europe again, though.

[Edit - had unneeded quote]

[edit on 6-8-2007 by TheWalkingFox]

And Yet there are those that think otherwise as to the Date...

Considerable interest in the Flood has been generated by recent attempts to find the Ark in the Mt. Ararat area of easternmost Turkey. At the same time, those who date the Flood within known Near Eastern ancient history - about 3000 BC - have long been derided by many Bible scholars. Even some who believe the Bible to be historically true feel the date cannot be later than 10,000 - 12,000 BC, placing it well beyond the reach of any related archaeological or literary data for which dates are known.

There are important reasons for reexamining the evidence which points to a date closer to 3000 BC.

Radiocarbon Dating
Although the equipment used to date radioactive materials has become more sophisticated, basic problems originally discovered by Willard Libby, inventor of the C14 dating method, still pertain. Radiocarbon (C14) dating, calibrated using known dates of Egyptian artifacts, has proved accurate back to only about 2000 BC, according to the discoverer (Libby 1965:ix; for an application to Mesopotamia, see Mallowan 1968:7-8). This has created problems for radio carbon dating older than 4000 BP (Before Present). Dates earlier than that cannot be calibrated since there is no known historical material older than 5000 BP. Dr. Libby himself said:

The first shock Dr. Arnold and I had was that our advisors informed us that history extended back only 5000 years. We had initially thought that we would be able to get samples along the curve back to 30,000 years, put the points in, and then our work would be finished . . . We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages are not known; in fact, it is about the time of the first dynasty in Egypt that the last [earliest] historical date of any real certainty has been established (1958:531).
Further, dendrochronologically dated wood, when compared with C14 dates, has shown that C14 dates are about 500 years too low at 3900 BP; before that time, there is no accurate way to calibrate C14 dates (Pearson and Stuiver 1986).

The Date of Noah's Flood:Literary and Archaeological Evidence




EDIT: As for Gilgamesh and Noah being the exact same person, that is not what I am saying, what I think is that the persons both go back to a single source for the flood story, What are the odds of 2 people building boats and carrying animals after being warned of a coming flood.


The Jews did not steal the story no more than the Sumerians did, I believe the source came from the immediate post deluvian world, and was passed down from generation to generation.

[edit on 6-8-2007 by edsinger]