More problems with the F-35 B and C

I have not been a fan of the F35 and all its' various models due to cost and delays, delays, and delays. It was looking like they (MIC) and military were starting to make some good progress with getting the bird to actually do the job it was promised it would do. Now this;

Both deficiencies were first observed in late 2011 following flutter tests where the F-35B and F-35C both flew at speeds of Mach 1.3 and Mach 1.4. During a post-flight inspection in November 2011, it was discovered the F-35B sustained “bubbling [and] blistering” of the stealth coating on both the right and left sides of the horizontal tail and the tail boom.

During similar tests of the F-35C in December 2011, “thermal damage” that compromised the structural integrity of the inboard horizontal tail and tail boom were apparent.

Vice Adm. Mat Winter, who leads the F-35 program on behalf of the Pentagon, told Defense News that the department has taken steps to mitigate the problem with an improved spray-on coating, but added that the government will not completely fix it — instead accepting additional risk.

As justification for the decision, Winter noted that the issue was documented while the jet was flying at the very edge of its flight envelope. He also said the phenomenon only occurred once for both the B and C models, despite numerous attempts to replicate the conditions that caused the problem.

Accepting additional risk is easy for a desk jockey. Now I am wondering about the F-35 of Japan that ended up in the ocean with the pilot killed.. Either way if the aircraft can not fly at sustained speed what friggen good is it.. Oh I know it is supposed to be a truck and drop bombs no speed needed. It will be the greatest C&C aircraft with drone wingmen the world has ever seen (sarc)..

Sorry I absolutely hate waste and lies to include excuses since the program began. Just another year and a few million more and we can iron the bugs out except for the software which will cost millions more and we will let you know when we can install it..
www.defensenews.com...

For example, an F-35C can only fly at Mach 1.3 in afterburner for 50 cumulative seconds, meaning that a pilot cannot clock 50 seconds at that speed, slow down for a couple seconds and then speed back up. However, the time requirements reset after the pilot operates at military power — an engine power setting that allows for less speed and thrust than afterburner — for a duration of three minutes.

The F-35B can fly for 80 cumulative seconds at Mach 1.2 or 40 seconds at Mach 1.3 without risking damage.

But for both the C and B models, flying at Mach 1.3 over the specified time limits poses the risk of inducing structural damage to the aircraft’s horizontal stabilizer.

Having our Navy and Marine Corps aviators operate the F-35 against a near-peer threat under such restrictions is Stupid...anyone who has been in air to air combat knows there are times when you fly the aircraft at the very outer limits of its' design capabilities and some times exceed them to stay alive....or you get flamed. Oh, no problem the F-35 will kill and never be seen with their super missiles which seem to have a 38% failure rate out of the box..

All I am saying (Beatles' song) is get your Sh** together. I wonder if RICO could be used to ferret out the waste and corruption of many of our military programs ? Everything from our newest greatest aircraft carriers to a friggen airplane. Can they do anything on time on budget...it appears they can't.. When will someone wake up and say "screw you to the MIC and the manufactures" do it or we will get someone else who can.

I thought I was in a good mood until I read this.. Now I wanna go hit/kill a bucket of golf balls

www.defensenews.com...

It’s a key part of the F-35B’s short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing capability, known as STOVL. And normally, everything in a “mode four” landing goes smoothly. But on this day, when the pilot triggered the thrust to slow his descent, something went wrong.

The engine, working hard on a day that temperatures cracked 90 degrees Fahrenheit while trying to lift a plane that was heavier than most returning to base, wouldn’t generate the needed thrust for a safe, ideal landing.

The pilot got the plane down, but was shaken enough by the situation to write up an incident report that would eventually be marked as “high” concern by the F-35 program office.

“May result in unanticipated and uncontrolled sink, leading to hard landing or potential ejection/loss of aircraft, particularly in the presence of HGI [hot gas ingestion],” reads a summary of the issue, which was obtained by Defense News as part of a cache of “for official use only” documents that detail major concerns with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

The issue could impact future F-35B operations in the Middle East, where temperatures are climbing as summer approaches.

As the article says what would happen in a place like the Mid-East where I have seen the temperature exceed 125 Degrees f... I remember once trying to get out of Vegas the airport was shut down due to the temperature being to hot.. It was not that the commercial aircraft could not preform and fly out it was just that none of our performance charts could be used because they did not list that high of a temperature.. Not the case for the F-35 it just can't do STOVL at temperatures above 90 degrees F unless it is super weight restricted even more than was already planned for.

“That is the only way a STOVL aircraft lands on an L-class [amphibious] ship, so it’s important.”

Technical details

The issue seems to stem from two factors: the heat, and the fact that much of the testing for the “mode four” maneuver was done with planes that were lighter, as they weren’t armed with heavy stores of weaponry.

So with a combat load out even with minimum fuel you can not land STOVL ? I guess we just jettison all the missiles and bombs so we can get back on board ship ? No problem, uncle sugar has more money than sense we can just buy more.

www.defensenews.com...

The pressure spikes in the F-35 seem to be of a more serious nature, forcing both pilots to abort test missions and inflicting “lingering symptoms” of “significant ear and sinus pain,” the document revealed. This presents the services with risks not only to pilot safety but to its own mission effectiveness, and all variants of the aircraft are susceptible to the problem.

The F-35 Joint Program Office believes it has identified the root cause of the problem: Sensors on the outer mold line of the aircraft are detecting “rapidly changing static pressures” that, in turn, drive very quick changes of the cockpit pressure regulator valve.

Maybe they should have had Cessna build the aircraft ? A stealth coated 172 or Citation jet...now you are talking (sarc)

www.defensenews.com...

WASHINGTON — Over the past several years, U.S. Defense Department leaders have gone from citing technical problems as their biggest concern for the F-35 program to bemoaning the expense of buying and sustaining the aircraft.

But the reality may be worse. According to documents exclusively obtained by Defense News, the F-35 continues to be marred by flaws and glitches that, if left unfixed, could create risks to pilot safety and call into question the fighter jet’s ability to accomplish key parts of its mission:

F-35B and F-35C pilots, compelled to observe limitations on airspeed to avoid damage to the F-35’s airframe or stealth coating. Cockpit pressure spikes that cause “excruciating” ear and sinus pain. Issues with the helmet-mounted display and night vision camera that contribute to the difficulty of landing the F-35C on an aircraft carrier.

On and on and on but hey how about them Russians or Chinese... No problem we got them covered..

a reply to: 727Sky

So it happened once, and they could not replicate it. No idea why you are a F-35 hater (per your own admission), it's quite possibly the most incredible plane ever developed, and the pilots from around the world who fly it (the people that actually matter) are astounded by it.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: 727Sky

So it happened once, and they could not replicate it. No idea why you are a F-35 hater (per your own admission), it's quite possibly the most incredible plane ever developed, and the pilots from around the world who fly it (the people that actually matter) are astounded by it.

I guess you missed

For example, an F-35C can only fly at Mach 1.3 in afterburner for 50 cumulative seconds, meaning that a pilot cannot clock 50 seconds at that speed, slow down for a couple seconds and then speed back up. However, the time requirements reset after the pilot operates at military power — an engine power setting that allows for less speed and thrust than afterburner — for a duration of three minutes.

The F-35B can fly for 80 cumulative seconds at Mach 1.2 or 40 seconds at Mach 1.3 without risking damage.

But for both the C and B models, flying at Mach 1.3 over the specified time limits poses the risk of inducing structural damage to the aircraft’s horizontal stabilizer.

That is the military version of an F.A.A. A.D. airworthiness directive..

Or This:

The engine, working hard on a day that temperatures cracked 90 degrees Fahrenheit while trying to lift a plane that was heavier than most returning to base, wouldn’t generate the needed thrust for a safe, ideal landing.

The flight manual gives a landing weight and a max STOVL weight to get back on board the ship. Unfortunately the weights advertised are wrong when the temperature is over 90 F.

With the cost of the aircraft and the years of delays (which are still on going) I do not care if Christ said it was a good deal for he would be mistaken when all things are considered IMO.

I have not flown the aircraft so I can not speak for the pilots.. I can assume if they were bad mouthing the aircraft they would be rained in..to much money for international sales so sing Ra Ra for a great OER and helping in the PR department for the F-35..

Or maybe it is the greatest thing since sliced bread or nuclear war . Maybe if it is ever used in a real war the F-35 will only have to be used when there is no rain to wash the stealth coating off and the Marines will have shot all their ordnance before trying to get back on the boat in the South China sea..

South China Sea air temps routinely exceed 90 degrees F. as anyone who has been to the Philippines or S.E. Asia can attest to. Also the monsoon season last for around 4 months.. So you can get airborne and climb above the weather/rain but you still have to come down to land IE through the rain.. Maybe they can put another restriction on the aircraft speed....call it rain penetration speed or something..!

a reply to: 727Sky

I guess you missed that the STOVL issues occurred with older B models only, and not every one. Or that it's during vertical landings which are NOT the only way they can land back on an LHA/LHD. They've already proven the rolling landings on the Queen Elizabeth. They'll work just fine on our ships as well.

Of all the issues that they raised, only the older engine issue and the speed issue don't already either have a fix in place, or will have a fix later this year. And those two aren't major issues. Aircraft rarely reach their top speed, and the issue they saw only happened once.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Its difficult for civilians to understand the F-35. From what I understand its not quite like the old style fighter, its a multi-role fighter bomber and air superiority weapons system. That means it can strike at ground targets, or it can be deployed aloft with advanced radars to track targets many miles away and either shoot them down with missles or direct other aircraft to the targets location while remaining on station.

The Navy has done a terrible job of selling this platform to the public.

Neatest thing to be about the aircraft is that it can fly from the Wasp Class LHD ships like the Essex and Kearsarge and those ships have CIC capabilities so as a combined platform this system really is a game changer and is very cost effective.

a reply to: TonyS

The Navy has been fighting tooth and nail against it. They want the money for more surface ships, along with maintenance on the existing ships. They felt like the B and C were basically shoved down their throat with no choice in the matter.

In addition, they're requiring the Navy to spend money upgrading their carriers and LHA/LHDs. So that's more money being taken from where they want it going. There's currently one CVN that is capable of deploying with F-35s for more than a short period of time.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thanks for that information. I find it kind of odd however considering that the F-35 would greatly extend the battle reach of the CVN. Maybe I am wrong about that?

a reply to: TonyS

Not at all. It is capable of extending the engagement envelope of the Aegis escorts several hundred miles, while assisting with engaging incoming cruise missiles as well.

What is making me laugh is the fact that the day before they released their exclusive about how screwed up the F-35 is (glossing over that all but two issues already have fixes in place or being installed soon), a handshake agreement was announced for the first multi lot buy that drops the price of each aircraft even lower, and puts them a year ahead of schedule for meeting their peg price of $76M per copy.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The F-35 is the game changing platform of this generation. It's also the most misunderstood.

a reply to: Zaphod58

So the cost is coming down and problems are being addressed. I think that's actually very good news as I am impressed with the overall concept of the aircraft. I may be wrong, but.........there was a recent article about the Russians trying to develop similar long range radar intercept capabilities and had, so far, failed to work the bugs out. Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the plane.

Of course, (tongue in cheek), none of these advancements mean anything if the Aliens get angry. We know our best aircraft can't match the Tic-Tac UFO's.

a reply to: TonyS

The problem is that people are looking at it as another F-15/F-16, when the reality is that there's nothing anywhere you can compare it to. The F-35 changes the battle without even firing a weapon. At a recent Red Flag, one of the pilots in an F-35 was on something like his 8th flight after completing transition training. In one of the first missions, not only did he successfully direct other 4th Gen aircraft away from threats, he got 3 or 4 kills himself in that one mission.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The F-35 is the game changing platform of this generation. It's also the most misunderstood.

Thanks to Boeing's PR Department. You can call me nuts but, look at what's happening. There was an order placed for more F-15s. Who benefits? Boeing. There's been an order placed for more F/A-18s. Again Boeing benefits. If the F-35 program gets shut down, what replaces it?

a reply to: JIMC5499

Not only that, but go back and look at the information timeline. How many times do we see an article about something good happening with the F-35, and within no more than a week there's a leak like this about problems they have.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Deliberately so, it seems, at least most of the time.

The plane is, by pilot accounts, a game changer in its intended role.

a reply to: seagull

Going by the exercise reports I would say that's an understatement. But of course those are just propaganda. Heh

Maybe some more propaganda by Boeing ? nationalinterest.org...

Report: Navy and Marine F-35 Fighters Become ‘Erratic’ While Performing Air Combat Maneuvers

Define Erratic which I find to be a weird word to use..

Documents acquired by Larter revealed that F-35B and F-35C pilots reported “unpredictable changes in pitch, as well as erratic yaw and rolling motions” when exceeding Angles of Attack of 20 degrees.

20 degrees AOT give me a break, which evidently the aircraft is trying to do IE break into an uncontrolled unusual attitude..
However during the primary testing other than normal shaking and buffeting under hi "G" load nothing was reported as uncontrollable youtu.be...

The more severe “erratic” behavior described in the report could pose a severe hazard when the pilot is attempting particularly demanding maneuvers. Indeed, a naval aviator in the document claimed the defect “will cause modal confusion, prevent precise lift vector control, and prevent repeatable air-to-air combat techniques, resulting in mid-air collisions during training, controlled flight into terrain, and aircraft loss during combat engagements with adversary aircraft and missiles.”

The problem thus appears to be both serious and pervasive. But Lockheed Martin insists, however, that it is implementing a flight control system patch planned for integration in the third quarter of 2019 that will result in this flaw being “resolved or downgraded.”

Fly by wire has been around since the B-58 Hustler .. A friend of mine used to fly the B-58 there were flight control problems then and evidently they still have not managed to figure it out yet.

That such a potentially serious flaw may soon be fixed is encouraging. The fact that the problem’s very existence was not revealed until now, less so.

The Brits have announced that a Chinese-owned company makes parts for British F-35 fighter jets.. Mostly electronic parts that

"control many of the F-35's core capabilities", according to publicity material produced by the MoD.

That includes "its engines, lighting, fuel and navigation systems"

It would be hard to make this stuff up because it is so stupid IMO

Chinese-owned company makes parts for British F-35 fighter jets, MoD reveals
The Telegraph via Yahoo News· 1 day ago

A Chinese-owned company is making circuit boards for F-35 warplanes flown by ...

Look it up. uk.news.yahoo.com...

A director from the company said there are "clear firewalls in place" between Exception PCB and its Chinese parent company Shenzhen Fastprint.

But defence experts, including former defence ministers, expressed concern that a Chinese-owned company is producing any parts for such a classified, British and American fifth generation programme, because of long-standing fears about Chinese espionage and rivalry.

They said it is a particularly odd situation given President Donald Trump's trade war with China and his opposition to any involvement by another Chinese company, Huawei, in fifth generation civilian mobile phone networks.

"We have been completely and utterly naive about the role of China and it is only now that people are beginning to wake up," said Sir Gerald Howarth, a former Tory defence minister.

a reply to: 727Sky

Most of these issues have been revealed in previous reports. They might not be blasted from the rooftops, but the information has been out there.

As for the flight control issues, fly-by- wire issues crop up in any type of aircraft. The flight envelope of the F-35 is about as extreme as you can get. That's going to be difficult to get perfect on the first try.