The Gospels are not eyewitness accounts

Greetings all,

Ryan -
As others pointed out, there is no hate in that post.
The only hate is in your own mind, Ryan.

I simply posted an essay about ancient documents - there is not the slightest hint of any emotion directed at any person in there - just facts and dates and arguments about ancient writings.

So,
I'd like to explain my views, it's true I feel strongly about this important issue.


To fundamentalists like Ryan, anyone who challenges there cherished beliefs must be hate-filled - next he'll be condemning me to eternal hell-fire :-)

Fortunately the church has lost much of its power in recent centuries - and I mean fortunately because not too long ago people like Ryan would have people like me burnt at the stake.

Yes - our history is filled of examples where the religious mind-set stood against reason and humanity and caused death and destruction and terror - from the murder of the last ancient philosopher (the murder of Hypatia under the orders of the Bishop by being flayed alive with broken sea-shells) to the burning of the ancient philosophic schools to the crusades to the auto-de-fe`.

For almost the last 2 millenia, the church has been a barrier and a hindrance to progress - once the Church had taken power and burnt all their competitors, scholarship and learning became so rare that we call the period the "Dark Ages".

Every step forward made by humans has been resisted and delayed by the religious.

Our understanding of anatomy used to be woeful, and thus our ability to treat wounds and illness and disease was shockingly poor. Before we understood anatomy and disease we had the Demon Theory of Disease - the church sponsored theory that diseases were caused by hidden "demons", evil spiritual beings. Nowadays we understand anatomy and hygiene - our current Germ Theory of Disease is so much better than the previous superstitions and our ability to treat accidents and illness has leaped ahead in response.

Of course the church did everything they could to stand in the way of progress - banning autopsies and experiments etc.

Just like they did everything they could to stand in the way of progress in astronomy and cosmology - it took the church 400 YEARS to admit they were wrong about Galileo.

And even today there is STILL a resistance to evolution -
incredible!

I have met and conversed with many young people from the leading civilized nations of the world - from Australasia to Europe - I am thrilled and proud and joyful at the quality of young minds I have seen - lovely young human beings who believe and practice equality, who reject violence, who treasure indivuality but respect different views, who seek to build and grow, not to damage and exploit.

I live in a country where children get their first PC as early as 3 years of age, who are reading and meditating by 4.
Children here don't even hear gunshots, and rarely see violence. At my local primary school a disabled Iraqi boy had his place in the school play - no-one laughed, everyone smiled (it brought tears to my eyes, I live in the New New World and I love it)

Out of all the people I have met in the past couple decades only TWO were Creationists.

Yet the nation that pretends to lead the West (no-one outside the US believes this anymore) has fallen victim to superstition and bigotry. The great tragedy of our age is the fall of the US to religious fundamentalism.

I don't hate you Ryan,
I don't hate Christians or Christianity,
I hate ignorance and violence broght on by religious bigotry, where-ever they be.


The US has failed its children -
education standards have fallen terribly (maybe #20 in the world at best)
violence is rife
the media is captive
and worst of all
religious fundamentalism is dominant.

Almost 50% in US believes the old fables of the OT.
Schools are starting to sneak Creationism into textbooks - funny , if it wasn't so tragic.


And now the religious fundamentalist elements have taken over the US foreign policy, the people have fallen in behind the drums of war, and the US invades where it will based on lies, trampling on innocent lives without a care (the US does not even keep figures on Iraqi deaths, thats how little they care - the Lancet estimated 100,000 so far.)

Religious fundamentalism has caused the US leadership, and tragically even SOME US soldiers to think they are BETTER human beings than Arabs (but we are encouraged by the reports of US soldiers who reject all this, having a secret way out of Iraq to a safe haven.) US soldiers are told that if they shoot because they feel at risk, and it turns out an innocent family is killed - its ok, there will be no repercussions. The US invasion has caused about 100,000 innocent deaths (in a country they are bringing "peace") and no-one has been brought to account. This evil will hang around the neck of the US for centuries.


THAT is what I hate.
Violence and racism.


It is religious fundamentalism that is the biggest threat to world peace and progress, and tragically the US has become infected.

There is good in Islam and Buddhism and Wicca and Judaism and Christianity etc.
And there can be evil in them too - its not the religion, its the MINDSET.
The mindset that says anyone who disagrees is "hateful".
The mindset that bombs abortion clinics in the name of "life"
The mindset that calls for crusades, whether to Jerusalem or Iraq, Syria and Iran.


That is why I speak out.

50 years ago horrible things were done.
"Never again" we said, "Never. Again."


But now it IS happening again -
the evil mindset that murdered Jews and Gypsys etc.
has now been turned on Muslims, or anyone who disagrees with the US.


Most of the world can see that Bush and his Neo-cons are Hitler etc. all over again.
We hope enough of the US wakes up in time.

Before millions die.
Again.



Iasion

lol, when i say he/she hates christianity, i am not just refering to this topic, i am refering to every single thread i have seen him/her post. They are all about him trying to "debunk" christianity and telling us Christians that we are wrong and he is right. I mean no offense whatsoever to you Iasion, I am not saying you are full of hate, but rather that you hate this religion. My question is WHY?

o fundamentalists like Ryan, anyone who challenges there cherished beliefs must be hate-filled - next he'll be condemning me to eternal hell-fire :-)

Fortunately the church has lost much of its power in recent centuries - and I mean fortunately because not too long ago people like Ryan would have people like me burnt at the stake.

Right, you are the one trying to bring me down in terms of credibility, see above, and telling everyone what i say, and how i act, when in reality you have never spoken to me, nor do i condone killing insects to set the record straight, but I am ready to burn you at the stake....

But no, you are absolutely right! I am hatefilled for standing up for what i believe in and what is right, and you are perfectly sound minded for trying to bring me down for what i believe in. Makes Sense!

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Ryanp5555]

and you saying bush is hitler all over again is just your political views. No one in their right mind is saying Bush is the equivalent to Adolf Hitler. I am not saying that Bush is the best president, but he deserves no comparison to Adolf Hitler. What has he done that is so attrocious? Free a nation whose leader was slaughtering them and holding them under great oppresion? But whatever, this is Religious Conspiracies.

Originally posted by saint4GodPlease tell me how you can 'unlearn' something.

Be happy to just as soon as you adequately explain what your question has to do with my sentiments.

Common sense tells me people don't 'unlearn' things. Perhaps a poll is in order to those who don't believe in common sense? Since you weren't using any quote marks and did not cited the source of this borrowed word, it sounded like something from you. If this was incorrect, I apologize.

Common sense tells me that you are off an a tangent until you provide the request above. As for references, please don't tell me that you too base your education on the internet, whatever did you do for knowledge growth previously, and how much information should I provide really? The link? I am still left hoping for a subtraction from the 100% fundies knowledge gained from that notorious decade old thing known as the internet link. I have news for you dear, if there is a link on the internet I have provided enough information for you to set your fingers in motion, failing that, visit your public library before you challenge me.

Sorry, didn't mean to be unfair. So how about it jlc, are you Christian?

Too late! You have allowed your prejudice and shortsightedness to best you.

Again, sounded like this is what you were saying. I see below that you've clarified so no need to ask.

Sounded like? First, if there is sound to these fonts, I need to turn up the volume. Secondly, when you address me, know that I will call you on every nuance just because I am obsequious to detail, can, and depending on my mood and the person to whom I respond, tolerant or just plain contrite.

No duh

, did I ever claim otherwise?

You did not need to claim it, it was obvious. And duh? What exactly is a duh?

whatever4

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
For the record, I do not believe the 4 authors were unlearned men,

Thanks.

You are welcome. Let us not forget however that I find them ignorant and lacking in intelligence.

Per the previous section I've posted, it looks like you clearly disapprove of Christian teachings (i.e. talk about peace and Heaven).

It looks like? IT LOOKS LIKE? sir/madame/ms/mr/miss/esq. this is the one and only time you have ever come close to my level of thinking and even then you have some ascending to so. It does not look like at all, I absolutely disagree with and disapprove with a passion of Christian teaching, since I conclude that it is nothing but brainwashing and malarky.

Time will tell. Just don't expect me to 'siddown and shuddup' when you say my beliefs are dead when certainly, I live.

I don't want you to "siddown and shaddup," I want you to stand up and yell so I and others can expose just how malignant and backwards is your belief.

I used direct quotes and talked to my thoughts on those direct quotes. What makes you believe I'm trying to convey anything but the truth? Also, I didn't realize it was my responsibility to answer all questions posted on the board.

First, good for you! Secondly, yes it is your duty to do just that or it comes across as choosing that which you think you can win while backbenching that which you know you cannot. We have been through this before.

But you have a problem as far as I am concerned, for the foremost champion of the disciples of Jesus' day, the man claiming to know Peter and John, has a different take on what Jesus had to say on the cross:

1Clem 16:7 and the Lord delivered Him over for our sins. And He openeth not His mouth, because He is afflicted. As a sheep He was led to
slaughter; and as a lamb before his shearer is dumb, so openeth He
not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away. www.earlychristianwritings.com...

You now have a problem corroborating the scripture and your not having done due diligence considering Clement's claim to fame. The link was a gift from me to you. Read the verses and study them well, for I have shown you the entrance to knowledge, and will surely be testing your aptitude.

I was concerned that people would be tired of hearing me talk and think it unfair to disallow others who have similar answers to post their response.

No one can hear you first of all, and secondly, I am not tired of your posts, I just find them lacking in substance but full of affidavits of having met the holy ghost, the devil, and all the minions of a tormented mind which needed to turn to a book for solace, and then preach to masses what it thinks it has found.

Well I am here to tell you, that there is no god within stoneworks, or papyri, or paper, or flesh which supposedly languished on cross boards. And until you find God living inside you, within your heart and your soul, without the aid of the aforementioned you have found nothing. Remember well that I defend God not Jesus or any other, but God.

Now I will take whatever warnings come my way for these sentiments even though I feel you have provoked me into saying them. The rest of your post I will not read for yours above already smacks of apology, and I have no want to indulge your martyrdom.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by saint4GodPlease tell me how you can 'unlearn' something.

Be happy to just as soon as you adequately explain what your question has to do with my sentiments.

Well, you said, "How a tax collector, and a physician can be unlearned men is a paradox only Christians must understand." Which says to me only Christians understand the paradox of how a tax collector and a physician can be unlearned. I am a Christian. I do not understand how a tax collector and a physician can be unlearned (nor anyone else for that matter). Back to my question please: How can someone be unlearned?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Common sense tells me that you are off an a tangent until you provide the request above.

Done.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
As for references, please don't tell me that you too base your education on the internet, whatever did you do for knowledge growth previously,

Nope, there's more inside this head. The internet does not provide the basis of my knowlege. It's a tool.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
and how much information should I provide really? The link?

Whatever is convincing be it link, or passage, or rational argument.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
I am still left hoping for a subtraction from the 100% fundies knowledge gained from that notorious decade old thing known as the internet link. I have news for you dear, if there is a link on the internet I have provided enough information for you to set your fingers in motion, failing that, visit your public library before you challenge me.

Been there, done that. Next? I'm still paying for all of it too so anything that doesn't have to go on government loan would be appreciated.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Sorry, didn't mean to be unfair. So how about it jlc, are you Christian?

Too late! You have allowed your prejudice and shortsightedness to best you.

Whatever . I wanted to talk to you.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Again, sounded like this is what you were saying. I see below that you've clarified so no need to ask.

Sounded like? First, if there is sound to these fonts, I need to turn up the volume.

Hehe, funny how Christians are always being criticized for being literal here and then I get a response like this. I 'hear' you loud and clear...figuratively speaking. Need I put that qualifier on all my figurative speech? I hope not.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Secondly, when you address me, know that I will call you on every nuance just because I am obsequious to detail, can, and depending on my mood and the person to whom I respond, tolerant or just plain contrite.

Understood. That's who you are. Pardon though if I tend not to be as particular about grammar and figurative speech, but that's who I am.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

No duh

, did I ever claim otherwise?

You did not need to claim it, it was obvious. And duh? What exactly is a duh?

It was obvious that I don't sin? Please don't call me God, because He is the one without sin. If a Christian says they are without sin, then they haven't been reading their Book. As for what duh means, according to Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: duh
Pronunciation: 'd&, usually with prolonged &
Function: interjection
1 -- used to express actual or feigned ignorance or stupidity
2 -- used derisively to indicate that something just stated is all too obvious or self-evident

It is all too obvious and self-evident that I sin.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Per the previous section I've posted, it looks like you clearly disapprove of Christian teachings (i.e. talk about peace and Heaven).

It looks like? IT LOOKS LIKE? sir/madame/ms/mr/miss/esq. this is the one and only time you have ever come close to my level of thinking and even then you have some ascending to so. It does not look like at all, I absolutely disagree with and disapprove with a passion of Christian teaching, since I conclude that it is nothing but brainwashing and malarky.

Glad my perceptions were accurate.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Time will tell. Just don't expect me to 'siddown and shuddup' when you say my beliefs are dead when certainly, I live.

I don't want you to "siddown and shaddup," I want you to stand up and yell so I and others can expose just how malignant and backwards is your belief.

Thank you for the invitation to participate. I gratefully accept. As far as exposition who is malignant and backwards, thats for everyone here to decide to their own accord.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

I used direct quotes and talked to my thoughts on those direct quotes. What makes you believe I'm trying to convey anything but the truth? Also, I didn't realize it was my responsibility to answer all questions posted on the board.

First, good for you! Secondly, yes it is your duty to do just that or it comes across as choosing that which you think you can win while backbenching that which you know you cannot. We have been through this before.

I neither have the time nor capability of answering all of humanity's questions. I appreciate your high esteem and expecations for me being able to do so though.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
But you have a problem as far as I am concerned, for the foremost champion of the disciples of Jesus' day, the man claiming to know Peter and John, has a different take on what Jesus had to say on the cross:

1Clem 16:7 and the Lord delivered Him over for our sins. And He openeth not His mouth, because He is afflicted. As a sheep He was led to
slaughter; and as a lamb before his shearer is dumb, so openeth He
not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away. www.earlychristianwritings.com...

You now have a problem corroborating the scripture and your not having done due diligence considering Clement's claim to fame. The link was a gift from me to you. Read the verses and study them well, for I have shown you the entrance to knowledge, and will surely be testing your aptitude.

Thanks, I'll check this out when I have more time & respond.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
No one can hear you first of all,

Here we go with the literal bit again. Ah well...

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
and secondly, I am not tired of your posts, I just find them lacking in substance but full of affidavits of having met the holy ghost,

Haven't met...been filled with the Holy Spirit, but again doesn't seem like you're interested in details.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
the devil,

I'm the only one huh? Hm, I find this difficult to believe because I've met people who can confirm.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
and all the minions of a tormented mind

Proof please.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
which needed to turn to a book for solace, and then preach to masses what it thinks it has found.

I 'preach' no more than anyone else here.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Well I am here to tell you, that there is no god within stoneworks, or papyri, or paper, or flesh which supposedly languished on cross boards. And until you find God living inside you, within your heart and your soul, without the aid of the aforementioned you have found nothing. Remember well that I defend God not Jesus or any other, but God.

I propose a resolution. Perhaps I can pray for the truth for both of us, and you can pray for truth for both of us. Between us, I think some progress can be made, yes?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Now I will take whatever warnings come my way for these sentiments even though I feel you have provoked me into saying them. The rest of your post I will not read for yours above already smacks of apology, and I have no want to indulge your martyrdom.

Sorry I apologized . Anyway, if I feel I've personally offended or am incorrect, then I will apologize (one or the other). That's who I am, just as who you are is someone who pays attention to detail as you've previously mentioned.


[edit on 4-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4GodWell, you said, "How a tax collector, and a physician can be unlearned men is a paradox only Christians must understand."

Try focusing when reading and stay away from your preconceived notions and beliefs in The Bible when you read my words. Now pay attention to what was written:

How a tax collector, and a physician can be unlearned men is a paradox only Christians must understand.

Was made in direct contradiction to the poster who claimed the apostles were unlearned men. Those are the scriptural descriptions not mine.

Your first mistake as previously pointed out was to speak for all Christians with: "Christians don't believe them to be 'unlearned men." Your second was to presume to know what I believe about the apostles' scope of learning, thereby claiming it is I who believe they are unlearned men, where I responded to us with:

And as for me, did you poll me to find out whether or not I think the apostles are unlearned men? then informed you of my opinion as to how I perceive them to have been: I do not believe the 4 authors were unlearned men, first I am not convinced they were all men, and I believe they, along with the other second century gospel forgers were ignorant and lacking in intelligence.

My statement is very clear, not unlearned, but ignorant and lacking in intelligence. All three adjectives have different meanings. You then further muddy the water with a rather bizarre interpretation of my statement on the polling of people, and then shoot back with:

"Please tell me how you can 'unlearn' something."

Where as you can see, I have made so such reference to unlearning anything, and I trust you now have gone back to verify what my statement was made in reference to. Which makes this repeated question of yours worthless and meaningless relative to what I have written:

"Back to my question please: How can someone be unlearned?"

Perhaps I can pray for the truth for both of us, and you can pray for truth for both of us. Between us, I think some progress can be made, yes?

Pray for your yourself, only you can appeal directly to God and convince him that you would like to receive the truth.

Well, Ryan, I AM saying that Bush is roughly equivalent to Hitler.

My bad bout the tangent, but Bush is just the leader of the Nazis in American clothing. He is dirty, his whole family's dirty, need I say more?

I bet you think the Patriot Acts are good, huh? How about the New Freedom Initiative? How about our war in Iraq and future wars with whoever the Bush Administration ain't feelin at the moment?

I bet you didn't know that your beloved Bush is a devil worshipper? I bet you have no idea what Bohemian Grove is? Oh, did you miss how many people he had executed while he was governor of my state? I'll give you a hint, he set a record.

I bet you missed it when he said that many more of our troops will die in Iraq, but it's all about freedom. I bet you miss every dirty thing that old Chimp Face does.

Before you dismiss me as a typical Bush hater, I am NOT a left wing person. I don't follow that left-right crap, it's meant to distract you. I look at the real. And this president is one of the dirtiest we've ever had. But hey, damn near all our presidents have been dirty, so it's all gravity...

Ryan,
Your last posting smacks heavily of not only Bush Bashing, each to his own, but, also of paranoia of the infamous NWO.

I bet you think the Patriot Acts are good, huh? How about the New Freedom Initiative? How about our war in Iraq and future wars with whoever the Bush Administration ain't feelin at the moment?

Unfortunately both of these Acts are the left side of the pendulum as an after effect of 9/11. it is the belief of many that in order to be safe they have to give up some “rights”. I am of the belief that as with any pendulum, it will eventually swing back and correct itself.

I bet you didn't know that your beloved Bush is a devil worshipper?

Please provide undeniable proof of this supposition.

I bet you have no idea what Bohemian Grove is?

Well, I did some research on this, but do you know what, other than statements made by a EXTRA reporter in an 119 "news article" The Story People Magazine Won't Let You Read Note the Fairnes & Accuracy In Reporting
there is not much to back the story up. Of the people that they listed as attending this 2 week get together, In the 2 year time frame, NONE of the listed attendees were in that area at the same time so I find this extremely hard to swallow. Please enlighten me as to where you have factual records to support this.

Oh, did you miss how many people he had executed while he was governor of my state? I'll give you a hint, he set a record.

Yes that is true, but remember, Texas has the most lienient laws in regards to how to set the death penalty. Bush as a govenor, wouold have to gather the suppport of the Texas house of reps etc. to change the laws on this. So stating that the deaths were all his fault is not actually correct.

And this president is one of the dirtiest we've ever had. But hey, damn near all our presidents have been dirty, so it's all gravity...

Oops, have you forgotten JFK, Richard Nixon, Cleavland just to name a few? They definately had a number of very dirty skeletons in their closets. Can you honestly state that Bush is worse?

Now, Can we get back onto the topic of this forum?
To my knowledge (and I might be wrong in this) , the only gospel that is the Book of John which is believed to have been written around 70AD. This at least gives it a remote chance of being a first hand account as it is very possible that John was still alive at that time and dictated his accouonts to a scribe to write.
The only other "gospel" that I can think of that maybe EyeWitness is the ones that have been debunked by the Vatican. These were part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I will try to get some links and more info in about an hour or two.

Somewhereinbetween, I wish to thank you for sharing the sermon of Clement of Rome. His words have given a measure of strength and reaffirmation in my relationship with God. Entirely relevant to our discussion and the topic at hand were some words written by the man you've brought before me:

1Clem 45:2
Ye have searched the scriptures, which are true, which were given
through the Holy Ghost;

1Clem 45:3
and ye know that nothing unrighteous or counterfeit is written in
them.

Wow! I wish I could copy and paste it again, but am sure it may be to some people's discomfort here, so please, read them again. Here is a man who's writings were NOT included in the canonization of the Bible and yet he bears a powerful testamony as those who were included in it. I'd like to quote another:

1Clem 49:5
Love joineth us unto God; love covereth a multitude of sins; love
endureth all things, is long-suffering in all things. There is
nothing coarse, nothing arrogant in love. Love hath no divisions,
love maketh no seditions, love doeth all things in concord. In love
were all the elect of God made perfect; without love nothing is well
pleasing to God:

1Clem 49:6
in love the Master took us unto Himself; for the
love which He had toward us, Jesus Christ our Lord hath given His
blood for us by the will of God, and His flesh for our flesh and His
life for our lives.


Go Clem, get jiggy!

P.S. He sounds a lot like Paul in my opinion....

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Was made in direct contradiction to the poster who claimed the apostles were unlearned men. Those are the scriptural descriptions not mine.

*Blinkblink* Mmmkay, I don't think we're seeing eye to eye on this one and don't know what it'll take to help each of us see the other's side.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Your first mistake as previously pointed out was to speak for all Christians with: "Christians don't believe them to be 'unlearned men."

I made a generalized statement in opposition to your generalized statement. Am I not allowed to do that? Or are you allowed to be general and I have to be statistical? That hardly seems fair. Hey, how did I get italicized? Can't seem to turn this bugger off. This is kinda fun. Feels like I'm about to fall over though...

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Your second was to presume to know what I believe about the apostles' scope of learning, thereby claiming it is I who believe they are unlearned men, where I responded to us with:

And as for me, did you poll me to find out whether or not I think the apostles are unlearned men? then informed you of my opinion as to how I perceive them to have been: I do not believe the 4 authors were unlearned men, first I am not convinced they were all men, and I believe they, along with the other second century gospel forgers were ignorant and lacking in intelligence.

I'm glad you claryfied it. At least I understand what you're saying...er...I mean...typing . Forgot about that literal thing again.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Where as you can see, I have made so such reference to unlearning anything, and I trust you now have gone back to verify what my statement was made in reference to.

I verified on the first go, still didn't get it. I think I may have some assemblance now...so at least that's progress.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Which makes this repeated question of yours worthless and meaningless relative to what I have written:

"Back to my question please: How can someone be unlearned?"

*nods* Alright. I see that now.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Perhaps I can pray for the truth for both of us, and you can pray for truth for both of us. Between us, I think some progress can be made, yes?

Pray for your yourself, only you can appeal directly to God and convince him that you would like to receive the truth.

How did I know you were going to say something like that? Okay, okay, I'll pray for us.

Originally posted by saint4God
Somewhereinbetween, I wish to thank you for sharing the sermon of Clement of Rome. His words have given a measure of strength and reaffirmation in my relationship with God. Entirely relevant to our discussion and the topic at hand were some words written by the man you've brought before me:

Your appreciation is premature, I assure you.

Ye have searched the scriptures, which are true, which were given
through the Holy Ghost;...and ye know that nothing unrighteous or counterfeit is written in them.

Wow!

I wish I could copy and paste it again,

To your heart's content.

but am sure it may be to some people's discomfort here, so please, read them again.

Yes, and it will be your discomfort. Stay focused the following is a lot for you to absorb.

You’ve gone fishing in a dried lake, oblivious to my counsel which advised you to understand what you read, before addressing me, because of my attention to detail. Were you astute you would have hunted the letter he wrote on Mark, read carefully the Clement epistle I provided, and heeded my advice. My response includes statistics where relative to avoid over-quoting, and I trust that you will actually perform due diligence, very carefully.

Relative to Mark, and the truth you think Clement speaks to, I always leave the best for last with every post I make. And even though this was previously posted to you once before by me, I somehow knew you chose to be oblivious to it.

To them, therefore, as I said above, one must never give way; nor, when they put forward their falsifications, should one concede that the secret Gospel is by Mark, but should even deny it on oath. For, "Not all true things are to be said to all men”.

Clement, this man of God, had a perverted sense of truth it seems, for above he is a willing participant in keeping all of the gospel as written from the world, endorsing outright the sin of lying, then has the nerve to state elsewhere the scripture is truth, and it is this lying man you diligently salute.

Deciphering Clement’s letter for you:

Only one can be correct; that Jesus spoke on the cross or Clement’s claim he said nothing.

Clement’s disposition toward God and Jesus, just the first 35 chapters for flavour: God is supreme in Clement's eyes:
* by the will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
*Grace to you and peace from Almighty God through Jesus Christ be multiplied.
*ye walked after the ordinances of God
*content with the provisions which God supplieth And giving heed unto His words
*ye stretched out your hands to Almighty God
*performed all your duties in the fear of Him
*while each man hath forsaken the fear of the Lord
*neither walketh in the ordinances of His commandments nor liveth
*Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how
precious it is unto His Father
*learn how from generation to generation the Master hath given a place for repentance unto them that desire to turn to Him.
*The ministers of the grace of God through the Holy Spirit spake
concerning repentance
*let us be obedient unto His excellent and glorious will
*Let us fix our eyes on them that ministered perfectly unto His
excellent glory
*Therefore it is right and proper, brethren, that we should be
obedient unto God
*Let us be good one towards another according to the compassion and
sweetness of Him that made us
*The scepter of the majesty of God, even our Lord Jesus Christ
*if the Lord was thus lowly of mind, what should we do, who through Him have been brought under the yoke of His grace?
*The heavens are moved by His direction and obey Him in peace. 20:1-12
*let them show their love, not in factious preferences but without partiality towards all them that fear God, in holiness. Let our children be partakers of the instruction which is in Christ.
*let them learn how lowliness of mind prevaileth with God, what power
chaste love hath with God
*Now all these things the faith which is in Christ confirmeth: for He
Himself through the Holy Spirit thus invite thus: Come, my children, hearken unto Me, I will teach you the fear of the Lord.
*The Father, who is pitiful in all things, and ready to do good, hath
compassion on them that fear Him
*Let us understand, dearly beloved, how the Master continually
showeth unto us the resurrection that shall be hereafter; whereof He
made the Lord Jesus Christ the firstfruit, when He raised Him from
the dead.
*Do we then think it to be a great and marvelous thing, if the
Creator of the universe shall bring about the resurrection of them
that have served Him with holiness
*He that commanded not to lie, much more shall He Himself not lie:
for nothing is impossible with God save to lie. (Tut,tut Clement!)
*let us understand that all things are nigh unto Him.
*By a word of His majesty He compacted the universe; and by a word He
can destroy it.
*The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament proclaimeth His handiwork
*Let our praise be with God,
*Let us therefore cleave unto His blessing
*For of Jacob are all the priests and levites who minister unto the
altar of God; of him is the Lord Jesus as concerning the flesh; of
him are kings and rulers and governors in the line of Judah; yea and
the rest of his tribes are held in no small honor, seeing that God
promised saying, Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven. They all therefore were glorified and magnified, not through themselves or their own works or the righteous doing which they wrought, but through His will.
32:4-34:5 (all about revering God.)
The Creator and Father of the ages, the All holy One Himself knoweth their number and their beauty.
*Let each of you, brethren, in his own order give thanks unto God,
Love joineth us unto God;
*Who is sufficient to be found therein, save those to whom God shall
vouchsafe it? Let us therefore entreat and ask of His mercy, that we
may be found blameless in love,
*The Master, brethren, hath need of nothing at all. He desireth not
anything of any man, save to confess unto Him.
*For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit,who are(NOT WHICH IS) the faith and the hope of the elect,
*may the All seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all
flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and us through Him for a
peculiar people, grant unto every soul that is called after His
excellent and holy Name faith, fear, peace, patience, long-suffering,
temperance, chastity and soberness, that they may be well pleasing
unto His Name through our High priest and Guardian Jesus Christ,
through whom unto Him be glory and majesty, might and honor, both now
and for ever and ever. Amen.


And just so you understand I am not being biased, I present here Clement’s views of Jesus:

*according to that which becometh Christ
*For Christ is with them that are lowly of mind
*remembering the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching
forbearance and long-suffering
*He shall inherit many, and shall divide the spoils of the strong; because His soul was delivered unto death, and He was
reckoned unto the transgressors;
*Let us fear the Lord Jesus [Christ], whose blood was given for us.
*This is the way, dearly beloved, wherein we found our salvation,
even Jesus Christ the High priest of our offerings, the Guardian and
Helper of our weakness.
*Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens;
through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent
visage; through Him the eyes of our hearts were opened; through Him
our foolish and darkened mind springeth up unto the light; through
Him the Master willed that we should taste of the immortal knowledge
*Who being the brightness of His majesty is so much greater than
angels, as He hath inherited a more excellent name.
*For so it is written Who maketh His angels spirits and His
ministers aflame of fire but of His Son the Master said thus, Thou art My Son, I this day have begotten thee. Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the Gentiles for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession.
*And again He saith unto Him Sit Thou on My right hand, until I make
Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet. (ALL FROM PSALMS FIRST, THEN THE EPISTLES)
*let the whole body be saved in Christ Jesus,
*Let us consider, brethren, of what matter we were made; who and what
manner of beings we were, when we came into the world; from what a
sepulchre and what darkness He that molded and created us brought us
into His world, having prepared His benefits aforehand ere ever we
were born.
*Seeing therefore that we have all these things from Him, we ought in
all things to give thanks to Him, to whom be the glory for ever and
ever. Amen.
*Forasmuch then as these things are manifest beforehand, and we have
searched into the depths of the Divine knowledge, we ought to do all
things in order, as many as the Master hath commanded us to perform at their appointed seasons.
*The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus
Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God.
*So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.
*Let us therefore root this out quickly, and let us fall down before
the Master and entreat Him with tears,

-------------------------------------
It is clear clement sees Jesus as a vessel of God’s word only, and he has no clue about any trinity being. This is further attested to by what he quotes, and what he quotes unfortunately does not bode well for you or your take on scriptural truth. Worse, Clement shows no knowledge of the NT gospels, absolutely none.


Now let us review Clement’s scriptural quotes statistically: Of the more than 30 supposed scriptural quotes Clement makes, exactly one is found in the 4 gospels

Woe unto that man; it were good for him if he had not been born, rather than that at he should offend one of Mine elect. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about him, and be cast into the sea, than that he should pervert one of Mine elect.

Which happens to be pulled from the OT. Two from Corinthians

My beloved ate and drank and was enlarged and waxed fat and kicked; and Eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard, and it hath not entered into the heart of man what great things

and one from James

resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the lowly.

One with roots to the Qu’ran

Have mercy, that ye may receive mercy: forgive,that it may be forgiven to you

13 are from unknown sources which means he lied or scripture was suppressed, the rest all hail from the OT. The only trace to any of these unknowns to date is via the DSS and The Apocalypse of Ezekiel, an apochrypha.

Clement’s preachings of the OT and quotations from same consume the verses:
4:1-4:13; 6:3; 7:6-7; 9:3-12:7; 14:4-5; 17:1-18:14; 22:1-8; 26:2-3; 29:2-3; 31:2-4; 35:7-12; 43:1-6; 51:3-5; 52:2-4; 53;2-5; 55:4-6

He certainly relied heavily on the OT to preach his religion, this is not what Christianity relies on today which is testimony to the fact that the gospel stories even in Clement’s day, where he supposedly knew Paul, John and possibly Peter were unknown. There is no excuse for this at all. The only obvious conclusion is that they were a later contrivance by lying scoundrels who were either deluded beyond help or sought to usurp power. Testament to that follows, for Clement shows where his reverence lies:

Clement’s preachings on being pious men:

*Let us set before our eyes the good Apostles…
*There was Peter…
*By reason of jealousy and strife Paul
* Take up the epistle of the blessed Paul the Apostle.
What wrote he first unto you in the beginning of the Gospel? Of a truth he charged you in the Spirit concerning himself and Cephas and Apollos, because that even then ye had made parties.

I end this post by closing out with Clement’s ultimate statements which spoke nothing of Jesus, an enormous schism considering Clement writing c80-140BCE:

let us look steadfastly unto the Father and Maker of the whole world, and cleave unto His splendid and excellent gifts of peace and benefits. Let us behold Him in our mind, and let us look with the eyes of our soul unto His long-suffering will. Let us note how free from anger He is towards all His creatures. And Let us rather give offense to foolish and senseless men who exalt themselves and boast in the arrogance of their words, than to God

Clement exalts only one person above all else mentioned and that would be God. He treats Jesus as just a special person, where it is obvious that the early church fathers being close to the apostles, knew absolutely nothing about him being the messiah or his third leg. And it is painfully obvious that the NT portrayal of Jesus was absolutely foreign to Clement, that is, until years later after raising him from just this special status, to high priest, that you find his manner of writing and thoughts all over the 4 gospels and some epistles.

The scriptures according to Clement are true indeed are they? The only scripture quoted which we have is…The Old Testament. So much for your truths in the NT, your Jesus being one with God. All Clement's writing is, is a testament to the machinations of the later church fathers, including his own willingness to lie in order to present a false picture.

Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was shed upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ?

And there you have it, from his quill to your eyes.

Originally posted by saint4GodBlinkblink* Mmmkay, I don't think we're seeing eye to eye on this one and don't know what it'll take to help each of us see the other's side.

An eye exam perhaps for that blink of yours, and your admssion that you were way off course.

I made a generalized statement in opposition to your generalized statement. Am I not allowed to do that?

I see it differently as previously outlined. Just admit you were off on a tangent by yourself and it is dropped. and we both got italicized. that blink really needs attention.

I'm glad you claryfied it. At least I understand what you're saying...er...I mean...typing

. Forgot about that literal thing again.

I even marvel at my patience with the chronic blinkers.

I verified on the first go, still didn't get it. I think I may have some assemblance now...so at least that's progress.

Progress, excellent! I hope you can keep it up.

How did I know you were going to say something like that? Okay, okay, I'll pray for us.

Because my God is the only God and some of us listen the first time, others need affirmation from those who listen the first time.

But you can consider me your inner guide.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Seapeople
Look, forget all that evidence you provided for your thoughts. Christians don't care. You don't need it anyways.

It that's the case, why do we debate/argue so much? For our health? Because we're just mean spirited people? Oh those apathetic Christians...

Originally posted by Seapeople
Fortuneatly if you are a christian, you can just ignore truth and facts because you don't really want to have knowledge.

Are not my responses (and others') proof that I do not ignore what's being presented? Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt your carpet bombing, claiming the ignorace of millions of people who you obviously know privately.

[edit on 3-3-2005 by saint4God]

Sorry I missed your response saint.

No, your responses show that you as well as most other christians intentionally choose to ignore reality. You don't even give things that sit right in front of your face a chance due to its biblical implications. You are a member of a group that intentionally tries to make everyone not a part of that group as stupid as those who belong to it. You are just like all the others. Your responses show that, not that you are some sort of intellectual.

You are the type that is quick to jump on something if there are other possibilies, but god forbit you ever address something when it is proof positive that something you argue is false.

AS far as the carpet bombing and claiming of ignorance. I agree, I don't knwo the millions personally. I assure you however, that they are ignorant. Anyone, who can stand there, and tell me that I am wrong when I literally do THE MATH RIGHT ON THE FORUM, is ignorant. I am sorry that you as well as others have to be pushed along the right path.

Somewhereinbetween, I read Clement's writings for the first time in your post. It sounded very consistent with the Bible and he had a lot of good things to say. That's all I meant. He seems to have the familiar rebuking of hypocrites, admiration of Jesus Christ as son of God, and an understanding of the Old Testament. In these things I agree. I thought some were a bit extreme in blaming jealousy for every thing in the beginning, citing what people thought that he never personally knew (like the prophets), and a heavy emphasis on punishment but I think I get the idea of what he was trying to say. Otherwise, I have no need to argue his points since I have devoted no study to them nor feel they hold 'extra keys' not included in original scripture. That's all. I've never met Clement and know very little about him so what good would it do to try to defend his works? I thought I saw some Catholic-type rootings in his works but I know little about Catholism as well so it's just my observation. If there's a point you want me to get in particular, please state it planely as concisely so as to forgo the possibility of confusion through verbosity.


[edit on 5-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by saint4GodBlinkblink* Mmmkay, I don't think we're seeing eye to eye on this one and don't know what it'll take to help each of us see the other's side.

An eye exam perhaps for that blink of yours, and your admssion that you were way off course.

I see it differently as previously outlined. Just admit you were off on a tangent by yourself and it is dropped. and we both got italicized. that blink really needs attention.

Fair enough, you see it differently. I don't think I was on a tanget (and wasn't by myself if we were going back and forth on it) because it's part of the topic of this thread. My italics were done in fun. You do have...fun, don't you?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
I even marvel at my patience with the chronic blinkers.

Just having some emotion with the topic. The mind is a wonderful thing, but is part of a body that has a heart.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
But you can consider me your inner guide.

I already have my guide, but certainly any wisdom you'd like to impart would be appreciated.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 5-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Seapeople
Sorry I missed your response saint.

No worries.

Originally posted by Seapeople
No, your responses show that you as well as most other christians intentionally choose to ignore reality. You don't even give things that sit right in front of your face a chance due to its biblical implications.

For example?

Originally posted by Seapeople
You are a member of a group that intentionally tries to make everyone not a part of that group as stupid as those who belong to it.

I have no interest in what any 'group' thinks. I'm too busy studying and trying to help the people who want it. I don't claim to be smarter than anyone.

Originally posted by Seapeople
You are just like all the others. Your responses show that, not that you are some sort of intellectual.

If there are others like me, then so be it. If there are not, so be it. I don't care about being an intellectual.

Originally posted by Seapeople
You are the type that is quick to jump on something if there are other possibilies, but god forbit you ever address something when it is proof positive that something you argue is false.

I am ordered not to bear false testimony. In that case, if it is wrong, I need to acknowledge it and make a practice of doing so. If you can search though a list of my posts then I'm sure you can find many occasions where this was the case.

Originally posted by Seapeople
AS far as the carpet bombing and claiming of ignorance. I agree, I don't knwo the millions personally.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Seapeople
I assure you however, that they are ignorant.

For some reason, I'm not feeling assured.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Anyone, who can stand there, and tell me that I am wrong when I literally do THE MATH RIGHT ON THE FORUM, is ignorant.

So I am ignorant? What exactly am I ignorant of? I did go through addressing your question posed to the board about Jesus' last words.

Originally posted by Seapeople
I am sorry that you as well as others have to be pushed along the right path.

I am sorry you feel this way.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by saint4God]

FOr example:

Noahs ark. There is no possible way that much water could have flooded the earth. If you want me to do the math for you again, I will. But you choose to believe it, even though it shows that you refuse to accept reality.

Originally posted by Seapeople
FOr example:

Noahs ark. There is no possible way that much water could have flooded the earth. If you want me to do the math for you again, I will. But you choose to believe it, even though it shows that you refuse to accept reality.

Looks like this has more to do with science than math. Do we have physical evidence of a flood covering the earth? I've heard 'evidence' claiming both pro and anti-flood, which kind of leaves us at a null-set. The reality is we don't know as a fact. This is where faith comes in. Since we don't know, your statement demonstrates you have faith that it didn't happen.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Somewhereinbetween, I read Clement's writings for the first time in your post. It sounded very consistent with the Bible...

Yes it did, didn't it? The old Testament. You are practicing evasion and as such deception, as you have totally ignored the fact that Clement relied on the OT, which undeniably reflects on Jesus as being nothing more than someone sent to spread God's word. Clement was a man elevated to sainthood, and one by whom the Christians accredit their faith, you should therefore be familiar with him and every other responsible for forging the faith you embrace. I am not surprised at your deceit unto yourself, for were you to critically analyse his words, you would find yourself questioning that which you have fully thrown your faith into. Seapeople is absolutely correct and in characterizing his/her synopsis, you are evasive because you care not to see what you do not want to see. Heaven forbid that you read Clement and wonder what his contemporaries thought as well, such that you just might discover the staged metamorphosis of Christian theology.

Whatever would you do with having to deal with the reality that your rebirth was based on something fraudulent? Well I will tell you Saint, you would just spend some time with your own conscience and you will come to understand that all the trappings, and they are trappings; angels; demons; devils; ghosts holy or otherwise, block your path to the only entity that counts...God.

That's all. I've never met Clement and know very little about him so what good would it do to try to defend his works?

You have never met Jesus or the devil either, of that I am certain. But you have met God and felt unworthy to face him and instead chose to believe what man has taught you over what he has gifted to you.

You believe you are on ATS for a reason, discover it!


[edit on 3/5/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Greetings Ryan,

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
and you saying bush is hitler all over again is just your political views. No one in their right mind is saying Bush is the equivalent to Adolf Hitler.

Many people are comparing Bush to Hitler directly :
e.g.:
home.comcast.net...

A massive list of those who compare Bush to Hitler :
semiskimmed.net...


Here are some sites and news articles that may show just how evil Bush and his cronies are -

US Sen. Byrd :
www.wtrf.com...

Retired US General:
www.bangornews.com...

Laurence Britt :
www.oldamericancentury.org...

Call for impeachment by Rep. John Conyers and Ralph Nader :
portland.indymedia.org...

Chicago Sun-Times
www.suntimes.com...

UK guardian
www.guardian.co.uk...

Rense :
www.rense.com...

Bush fascist :
www.antiwar.com...

Bush "traitor to the troops" :
www.supportthetruth.com...

Chavez calls US a terrorist state :
english.aljazeera.net...


Bush called #1 Terrorist in Germany :
www.mg.co.za.../breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/
today.reuters.com... -DC.XML

Bush Is Leading America Into War and Disaster, Sam Hamod
www.todaysalternativenews.com...,150&values%5b0%5d=&values%5b1%5d=2259


Bush abusing power to stop lawsuits against him :
www.chicagotribune.com...


Lies about WMD :
www.antiwar.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...


US planned invasion long ago :
www.informationclearinghouse.info...


$9 BILLION mising in Iraq:
www.thebostonchannel.com...

Bush family profiterring from war :
www.vheadline.com...

Money defrauded by Haliburton :
www.scoop.co.nz...



Lies about US losses in Iraq :
www.corvusworld.com...
www.rense.com...



Lancet estimates 100,000 Iraqi innocents killed in US invasion:
www.washingtonpost.com...
(US doesn't even BOTHER to keep statistics on innocents they kill !)


US forces shoot or kidnap their critics -

Italian Giuliana Sgrena shot :
www.axisoflogic.com...
www.cadenaser.com...

Suspicious deaths of journalists :
www.interventionmag.com...

Pentagon threatens to shoot journalists :
beirut.indymedia.org...

US kidnaps Iraqi businesswoman :
portland.indymedia.org...


US uses WMDs in Fallujah :
bellaciao.org...
www.uruknet.info...

US atrocities in Fallujah :
www.informationclearinghouse.info...


Soldier who tried to report abuse sent to psychiatrist :
www.washingtonpost.com...


It is clear to many that Bush and co. are much like Hitler and cronies.

We hope and pray US wakes up soon.


Iasion