The risk of defending others

Some preppers make provision for being caught in a violent event, whether it is a bank robbery, a shooting in a public place, or a riot.

What thought have you given to the risks involved if you intervene in the midst of a violent event?

The anti-gun police are constantly telling the public that if you draw a gun to stop a bad man, you may be shot yourself by police who cannot tell the difference between the perpetrator and someone trying to protect the public. (having worked as a cop, I'll tell you that such never comes up, primarily because the cops are not present when something big goes down. Most mass murderers plan their spree so that there will be no cops in the area....)

Say you are on the local college campus for an event, and shooting breaks out. You and others barricade the room you are in. You shut off the lights, lock the door, and hide out of sight. You can hear the gunman running past your room, trying the door and moving on. Now he shooting at the other end of the hallway. Do you emerge from your hiding, to try and flank him? Or just wait for the cops to arrive and count the bodies....?

IF you do emerge, what are the chances that you'll be sued by the gunman's family, etc?

I know someone who defended himself and his wife at a gas station hold-up. The guy had pointed a gun at him. He was arrested by the police arriving at the scene, and interviewed, after being mirandized. Something he said gave the perp's family grounds to sue, because he knew he could have hidden with his wife in the car. He was exonerated, but he sold their house and all their savings to pay defense lawyers....

a reply to: Graysen
No thought at all. I was just noticing how cool you look, wondering if you were from the 1960's Alamo play set?

a reply to: Graysen

Have never been in such a situation so I cannot say for certain what I would do. My instinct I believe would be to stay in the defense position and wait for first responders to dissolve the situation. I believe I would only draw if family or friends are going to be on the receiving end. I look out for me and those I know first and for most. But like I said I have never been in such a position to say for certain what my reaction would be. And hopefully I never am.

Yeah, I don't carry, but I would probably just run them over.

Hurting people isn't cool.

a reply to: Graysen

but he sold their house and all their savings to pay defense lawyers....

Then they are the one's who stole his money. Shame on the Judicial System for even allowing this to be so.

To even have the matter to appear before court for more than 1 day, is a testament to the stupidity of what is considered legal.

a reply to: Graysen

I think that the police will tell people what they will tell people - in this case obviously to try to keep them safe - but I am actually very disgusted over the treatment of the man at the filling station but your country not mine.

I think that when the public are united and stand up to criminal's scum like those that plan such attack's often then do not get away with them.

Like the old analogy of a single stick breaking easy but a bundle of stick's being much stronger.

An old profile of society found that there were about 3 in every 1000 people that could kill without thinking or remorse, two of those three were definitely psychopath's but the third one was what they termed a defender whom would kill instinctively to defend other's around them in such a situation.

The difference they believed was that the two psycho's like may criminal's have usually absolutely no empathy for there victim's or other people in general but the defender has empathy just like anyone else but is biologically programmed to defend the tribe and those weaker than themselves against predators and other enemy's so will defend almost instinctively against such thug's.

That mean's that at least 1 in every one thousand people is likely to act against criminals in such a circumstance even when it endangers there own lives in an attempt to defend other people.

It is also a cultural thing, in the past over here in Blighty if a violent crime took place on the street quite often a mob of people would take on the perpetrator and try to help there victim but as society has gotten more and more desensitized to violence through cultural influences people are not more likely to look away and play the old "it's got nothing to do with me so I am staying out of it" card which is very sad actually as it goes hand and hand with society becoming more violent and less safe for ordinary people to go about there day to day business.

a reply to: Graysen

Am I the only one that seems a little off put by the fact people actually need to put scenarios like this into their daily lives 'just in case'. Why is this centered around gun violence? Is this a real fear in the US, or is this just a precautionary reaction from people who are 'preppers'?

I've been to some pretty harsh places and walked the streets, (for food funny enough) Port of spain, Kingston, Chicago, the rough areas of Toronto, areas around Korea town in LA, just a few, and I've never seen a gun pulled or even heard gun fire. I've seen plenty of fights, and knives thrown around, but never guns. Maybe I'm lucky?

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: Graysen

Am I the only one that seems a little off put by the fact people actually need to put scenarios like this into their daily lives 'just in case'. Why is this centered around gun violence? Is this a real fear in the US, or is this just a precautionary reaction from people who are 'preppers'?

I've been to some pretty harsh places and walked the streets, (for food funny enough) Port of spain, Kingston, Chicago, the rough areas of Toronto, areas around Korea town in LA, just a few, and I've never seen a gun pulled or even heard gun fire. I've seen plenty of fights, and knives thrown around, but never guns. Maybe I'm lucky?

There is no such thing as gun violence.

Guns, after all, are an inanimate object and not capable of violence.

The actual fear for some of us citizens is the ever-escalating amount of crazies and criminals in the US.

originally posted by: Mandroid7

Hurting people isn't cool.

Seems a rather naive comment. Do you hurt or kill the terrorist to save his 10-1000 victims? Do you hurt or kill the dictator who is killing his own people and draining a country's resources into his own babk account?

Sometimes it's ok, or a necessity, to hurt or kill, it's just never ok with innocent people. Sometimes you have to sacrifice the one who would kill or hurt the many.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: Graysen

In a situation which you described, i would like to imagine myself eliminating the attacker, then carry a woman on my lap out of a flaming building, just like in hollywood movies.

But this is no movie. I am a weak and scared man. I would just wait for the cops to arrive, and also wait for new underwear.

a reply to: Graysen

Good post, Goes through my mind every single day. I work in a school. Was in a real, actual lockdown in 2017, ( no shots fired, just a "situation" as far as we were ever told. ) lasted about an hour and a half, I was in a downstairs classroom far from the scene but we knew nothing at the moment. just that there was an active real alert. Scary as hell. A buss load full of armed city cops arrived, (S.W.A.T. team looked like. not sure.just had a tiny peek out a window, police with body armor and AR 15-s, I had the "OH S#%T moment) Students pissing themselves in fear.. we hunkered down in my classroom, I realized that if i had to I would go take one for the team. . . maybe it was just adrenaline.... It never ever ever leaves your brain once you go there...I never stop thinking of it still 2 years later, Seems to me it will be a case-by case basis on when and what one does in the situation depending on everything ( whats the plan? what is the setting? is there any cover? will any innocents be harmed by your actions? and if by chance one can get there and stop the bad person will the cops shoot me by accident? it 's a lot to process, I believe it is a very case-by - case question, but extremely valid these days, I vote for go , hide, asses the situation, and then decide what to do.

a reply to: Lumenari

What is the main intention of a firearm?

a reply to: Graysen

And what about the psychological cost of defending, ...or not... what is the cost of living decades after the event realizing in hindsight that you could have helped but didn't for whatever reason....or did help but someone innocent got hurt, and you lived.... or you get killed and the people in your life miss you forever... guilt weather justified or not can weigh heavy on a human... You have posed a very complex question, Why I love ATS.

a reply to: Graysen

It is disgusting what happens to Citizens who risk their own lives and safety to protect others. Nothing short of a typical railroading

Meanwhile, the actual scum bag degenerates doing the violent crimes have " "certain people" " clamoring to make excuses and stick up for them.

Personally, I would still do the right thing but make absolutely no statements other than "I was in fear for my life, or X's life" and leave it at that. I have one of those nifty attachments on my Glock that record as soon as you draw the weapon. Safariland even makes the holster

viridianweapontech.com... If you know anybody in LE you can probably get a better price than $500

This way there can be no question as to what happened. Just make sure you're absolutely justified - ability, opportunity, intent = jeopardy and it must be a deadly threat (use of a deadly weapon, credible imminent threat with deadly weapon, more than one attacker, disparite force, etc)

a reply to: strongfp

It is a tool, has multiple uses. Mine are for defense primarily (justified judicious and most expedient stopping of a deadly threat)

AKA against gangs, criminals, dangerous animals, etc.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: Graysen

Am I the only one that seems a little off put by the fact people actually need to put scenarios like this into their daily lives 'just in case'. Why is this centered around gun violence? Is this a real fear in the US, or is this just a precautionary reaction from people who are 'preppers'?

I've been to some pretty harsh places and walked the streets, (for food funny enough) Port of spain, Kingston, Chicago, the rough areas of Toronto, areas around Korea town in LA, just a few, and I've never seen a gun pulled or even heard gun fire. I've seen plenty of fights, and knives thrown around, but never guns. Maybe I'm lucky?

You are lucky

Surely you realize a "fight" and especially a knife (a deadly weapon, equal to a firearm under the law) can both be fatal. Depending on the circumstances (force disparity, multiple attackers vs. 1 defender, etc) batteries can easily be fatal and are also treated as the use of deadly force

Take a mob attack for instance, under the law a disparity of force exists making the use of deadly force justifiable. In that circumstance, the mob exists as one single legal entity. It doesn't matter what part of the mob you defend yourself against first. To wit, if there are 5 attackers attacking the defender, there is no need to determine which poses "the most" danger at any given time merely that they are acting in concert with violent intent that puts you in fear for your life or grievous bodily harm. The mob itself is one single entity under the law at this point

In sane states, there is no duty to retreat from any location the defender has a legal right to be.

Don't take my word for it though, do some research. Call a lawyer. Ask a cop. Any of the above

FYI, those criminal scum bags don't care about your politics or opinion toward them. Don't tell them you are anti-gun though (if you are), they will prey on you extra special since they love soft targets

a reply to: Lr103



Excellent post.

Like you I've never actually experienced being "under fire" but it was a near thing that I sensed was developing. Waffle House just off the interstate in Georgia having breakfast when a group of white trash came in and began yelling that they needed to see "Susie." Apparently Susie was an employee and had seen them coming and hid. It immediately set off my spidey senses----just a totally nasty, bad vibe. Neither my husband nor me was carrying at the time but there were weapons in the car. Our split second decision when the yelling started got us out the door and on the road in no time flat---a few seconds or minutes before the bullets began flying toward a door where this bunch of scum thought "Susie" was hiding. We met state patrols and ambulances running hot just a few minutes after we got back onto the highway. Checked the local news the next day and three customers had been injured and "Susie" was dead. "Domestic issue" was listed as the cause of the shooting. Re-enforced my belief in trusting my spidey senses.

My instinct is to, in the words of Monty Python, "RUN AWAY" unless there is a direct threat to me or mine. I've had only two occasions in my life when I felt the need to display a weapon. In both cases the threat took off like he'd been shot out of a cannon at just catching sight of me with a shotgun.

I've never imagined myself as any kind of hero. I admire those who will step up but unless it's an imminent and direct threat to me or mine, the rest of the world can defend themselves. I will do my best to remove myself from the situation if it is happening in a public place. Both the incidents referenced above happened at my home. That's a horse of a different color if you come to my place threatening violence.

I think these "near miss" situations just raise our awareness that there are nutcases/druggies out there who have no respect for human life. It's not that we walk around scared all the time but are more aware of the reality that bad things can happen just because you're in the wrong place at the wrong time when one of those nutjobs goes off the rails.

a reply to: Graysen

Prepare by getting lots of people at your side.

Also, get to some people have the wherewithall to want to play musical instruments. Got any designs how to carve out a flute from a twig?

I personally like a violin. So, we need artists and intellectuals of all makes and shapes, or I will kill myself.

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
a reply to: Graysen
No thought at all. I was just noticing how cool you look, wondering if you were from the 1960's Alamo play set?

DUDE! Ssshh--don't blow my cover. SÍ

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Graysen

Personally, I would still do the right thing but make absolutely no statements other than "I was in fear for my life, or X's life" and leave it at that. I have one of those nifty attachments on my Glock that record as soon as you draw the weapon. Safariland even makes the holster

Don't even say that much.

If you say ANYTHING, a cop can get on up on the witness stand, and make up any BS, and the court will take it as gospel.

Don't say Schist.

Don't agree that you understand your Miranda rights.

Don't ask for a phone call. If you are entitled to one, they will provide it eventually.

Seriously, that's my takeaway from my work in law enforcement. You will have just survived the most traumatic moment of your life. You will NOT say the best, you will say the least effective thing in that moment. And a civil court will hold you to whatever you say.

Likewise with my kids. They DO NOT have permission to open the front door for callers. They are instructed to SHOUT THROUGH the front door, but not open it no matter what. If it is the real police, they will have a warrant. And if they have a warrant, they will just kick the door down, not knock. So don't open the door for anyone, not even someone who "says" they are polizei. The law is on my side in every state.

Likewise with you after a self-defense episode. Assume you are having a stroke. Sit down. nod for water if it is offered you. But otherwise mute until a lawyer says they will represent you, or you are allowed to call your family.

No cop is willing to lie so boldly as to claim you talked when you stayed mute. But if you said anything at all, whether it was "c'mere" or "sickem," a cop will misquote you and make you sound like an evil bastard.

So keep you mouth shut like your life depends on it. It does.