Poison DUst: Depleted Uranium Kills

Originally posted by seattlelaw
Extrapolation of past data requires determining a source for valid data. I propose that the data provided by the Pentagon is fraudulent

Any Pentagon data would indeed seem to be inclined towards its own prespective but sadly most of the research on the subject was carried out under its purview. Research that could be done to the best of its ability only under the say-so of the military, though I, would be less inclined to imply their sway over the findings of such a study. None the less, the proclivities of the pentagon as perceived by the masses would imply that any assertions made by the Pentagon would necessarily be viewed as an attempted coverup.

Data that I have deemed as sources however, do not submit themselves to similar impediments of bias that have sought to traduce military research on the same.

The Pentagon would have us believe that Gulf War Syndrome (GWS) and all the diseases and death it purports to dispose of as nothing more than post ttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) brought on by battle.........

Data. It's out there for the gathering but few people have any incentive to add it up. We have a government which prefers to react to developing problems with finger pointing and 'the blame game,' a term they used with limited success against their detractors,

The exact position of GWI, as it is an illness in the strictest of terms due to myriad variations of symptoms, is indeed a serious concern with regard to the military and its officers with respects to the continued ability of the USA to engage in multiple military operations across the globe. The Institute of Molecular Medicine has published various findings that show GWI to be caused inconclusively, the exact nature of the diagnosed and the numerous types of exposure obfuscate the results. This has been discussed in detail in the other thread that I responded to on GWI that I mentioned to Soficrow.

I find that you claim to say that GWI is being mistaken for PTSD, which I can say, is truly a naive analysis of the facts. Though GWI has many characteristics like fatigue that are congruent to PTSD, the diagnosis is hardly complete by such approximations. Clinically most diagnosis that have been made of GWI claim it as a mixture of CFS and Fibromyalgia Syndrome thought even this does not give a true picture of the situation. The biological and chemical variables that faced the soldiers in the battlefield also add to the complications. The nature of GWI suggests no one overwhelming cause for its symptoms. It also depends on the individuals overall health and diet.

I have already given all this and more in the posts on this thread. Please make a thorough perusal of the same.

In my opinion we know enough about the destructive nature of uranium to know (as it cannot be controlled and cannot be disposed of) that, in spite of the fact that it is provided freely to maufacturers, it should not be used as a weapon anywhere at anytime. I also believe it is cowardly to use and it clearly violates treaties signed by the US. Additionally, our failure to clean it up and treat those contaminated by it violates Army code.

Well though your affectations on the matter are self-evident the most distressing thing about this fracas is the editorializing of Science to fit agenda.
The claims made and the facts of the matter are not congruent, this very stark contrast in the claims Vs facts would force me to believe a more nefarious agenda is at hand.

On the other hand the treaties that you speak of do not refer to Uranium derivatives that makes them immune to any such treaties as such treaties only refer to those products of Uranium that are used in its conventional sense and not in the present context of armour and munitions. Also such treaties are not defined in the rad context rather on more ambiguous terms of classification that does not necessitate the US to consider DU as bound by such treaties. The Army code that you speak of deals with those substances, which are deemed as medically dangerous by the military and as such, the military does not define DU to be harmful. Thus this would free them from any complicity legally.

This is why, in my opinion, the past use of DU is the biggest present and future threat created from the exclusively ignorant US actions abroad since 2001. I don't know whether the Neocons were involved in 9/11 but it is most unfortunate that they have been at the helm since that time.

I wouldn’t want to get into some stereotypical assertions to the matter of DU and also the democrats under Clinton made similar assertions regarding DU. But from what I have read, seen, heard and been told Depleted Uranium is a weapon that makes the US military the most powerful in the world, confident to take on the might of any that might stand against us. Though DU is only a small part of the over all military operations, the very direct and all encompassing nature of its applications make them invaluable in any escalated conflict, be they armor engagements or aerial strikes. The very potency of DU has no alternative and most likely any replacements would have similar or greater dangers. Though you are right in one way, ignorance is to blame. Desert Storm and Shield showed how naive most of the force was to the effect of DU. The present conflict in Iraq will definitely provide greater insight into the exact nature of DU and the level of knowledge about DU handling. This does not mean that DU will be withdrawn but instead what will most likely happen is more care will be emphasized on handling DU and its use will be further optimized to minimize contact. But these would mean that DU is in fact seriously detrimental to human health when compared to other similar munitions and this being proved conclusively. This is however unlikely as it goes against most science in the field.

The claim of indifference by the military is also debatable as not only has the military recognized GWI but also recognized the need for treatment of GWI vets and come out with the recommended treatments devised by the IMM. I have also come to know of some monetary compensation being awarded to the more severely affected with disability pay.

[edit on 3-3-2006 by IAF101]

I see that Advocates of the ILLEGAL use of Depleted Uranium, often use this source for their Claims and their Facts to proove, how HARMLESS it really is.

WHO - Depleted uranium

A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low.

However, none of them take in Consideration, that in the Kosovo Air campaign, ALOT LESS of DU ammunitions were being dropped then in recent Invasion of Iraq. Therefore making this Comparision totally non-competant, since the ammount of DU dropped in Kosovo can not compare to the ammount being dropped in Iraq.

Pentagon War Crimes: 250.000 Nagasaki Bombs in Iraq

US Radiation In Iraq equals 250,000 Nagasaki bombs

Just about all American bullets, 120 mm tank shells, missiles, dumb bombs, smart bombs, 500 and 2,000 pound bombs, cruise missiles, and anything else engineered to help our side in the war of us against them has Uranium in it. Lots of Uranium.

In the case of a cruise missile, as much as 800 pounds of the stuff. This article is about how much radioactive uranium our guys, representing us, the citizens of the United States, let fly in Iraq. Turns out they used about 4,000,000 pounds of the stuff, give or take.

The admiral in India calculated the number of radioactive atoms in the Nagasaki bomb and compared it with the number in the 4,000,000 pounds of uranium left in Iraq from the 2003 war.

I think that the NUMBERS speak pretty much for themselves.

Furthermore,

Wikipedia - Depleted Uranium; Inhalation exposure risks

Early scientific studies usually found no link between depleted uranium and cancer, and sometimes found no link with increases in the rate of birth defects, but newer studies have, and have explaned the birth defect links. Environmental groups and others have expressed concern about the health effects of depleted uranium, and there is significant debate over the matter. Some people have raised concerns about the use of this material, particularly in munitions, because of its proven mutagenicity, teratogenicity, in mice, and neurotoxicity, and its suspected carcinogenic potential, because it remains radioactive for an exceedingly long time with a half-life of approximately 4.5 billion years; and because it is also toxic in a manner similar to lead and other heavy metals. The primary radiological hazards associated with this material are alpha emissions, however the long half-life indicates that depleted uranium is only weakly radioactive. All isotopes and compounds of uranium are toxic. Such issues are of concern to civilians and troops operating in a theatre where DU is used, and to people who will live for several years afterward in such areas or breathing air or drinking water from these areas.

Studies showing detrimental health effects have shown the following:

• Indications that DU passes into humans more easily than previously thought after battlefield use. (radioactive particles absorbed into the body are far more harmful than a similar background radiation level outside the body, due to their immediate proximity to delicate structures such as DNA, bone marrow and the like.) Pre-1993 military DU studies mainly evaluated external exposure only
  
  
• DU can disperse into the air and water, United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) study [18] says in part:
  
  "The most important concern is the potential for future groundwater contamination by corroding penetrators (ammunition tips made out of DU). The munition tips recovered by the UNEP team had already decreased in mass by 10-15% in this way. This rapid corrosion speed underlines the importance of monitoring the water quality at the DU sites on an annual basis."

Graph showing the rate per 1,000 births of congenital malformations observed at Basra University Hospital, Iraq, as reported by I. Al-Sadoon, et al., writing in the Medical Journal of Basrah University.

Well, it looks like Depleted Uranium is NOT so Harmless as some PNAC members are trying to make it LOOK. Apparently the US Army has sent their Agents to play the role of Devil's Advocates in their Name. I can name at least one such case - but I won't.

Let's move on.

Nobody mentions, that the use of DU is ILLEGAL:

US forces' use of depleted uranium weapons is 'illegal'

Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon's depleted uranium project -- a former professor of environmental science at Jacksonville University and onetime US army colonel who was tasked by the US department of defence with the post-first Gulf war depleted uranium desert clean-up -- said use of DU was a 'war crime'.

Rokke said: 'There is a moral point to be made here. This war was about Iraq possessing illegal weapons of mass destruction -- yet we are using weapons of mass destruction ourselves.' He added: 'Such double-standards are repellent.'

According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts.

Ofcourse Geneva Convetions do NOT apply to Some Countries - as Usual.

Furthermore,

DU - Potentinal Health Effects

In the areas where depleted uranium was used in southern Iraq, a number of serious health problems have emerged among both soldiers and civilians.
For instance, there has been a 66% increase in leukaemias and cancers in southern Iraq. There has also been a marked increase in the numbers of children born with birth malformations, with horrific reports of 3 children in one family being born with severe congenital malformations.

There are also large numbers of soldiers who served in the Gulf with Allied forces and in the Iraqi army, who are now suffering from mysterious illnesses - often referred to as Gulf War syndrome. Many of these illnesses reflect those seen among Iraqi children and civilians. For example, of the 697,000 US troops who served in the Gulf, over 90,000 have reported medical problems. There are also defects reported among their newborn children. In a veterans community in Mississippi, 67% of the children were born with malformations.

Ofcourse that has NOTHING to do with Depleted Uranium whatsoever.

Still - no matter how much lipstick you put on a Pig - it is sill a PIG.

More Links:
Teratogenicity of depleted uranium aerosols: A review from an epidemiological perspective
Genotoxic and Inflammatory Effects of Depleted Uranium Particles Inhaled by Rats
A review of the effects of uranium and depleted uranium exposure on reproduction and fetal development
UN High Commission for Human Rights - statement that DU is prohibited and contravenes prior UN resolutions
"Human rights and weapons of mass destruction, or with indiscriminate effect, or of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering"

Good work Souljah, thanks for the effort.

Here's some more:

"Depleted" Uranium Munitions: Nuclear Waste as a Weapon

Radiation is the spontaneous emission of energy from an unstable atom – such as U-238 – resulting in the formation of a new element. Radiation can damage or kill cells, initiate or accelerate cancer, mutate genes, and cause a variety of other health problems. Radiation from "depleted" uranium is primarily associated with "stochastic" health effects caused by longer exposure to lower levels of radiation, rather than effects caused by acute (short-term, high-level) exposure.

"Depleted" uranium is primarily an alpha emitter. Alpha particles have been shown to cause a variety of effects on cells, including cell death, gene mutation, chromosome aberrations, and malignant transformation leading to cancer. Beta particles and gamma rays also damage cells. The lungs will receive the highest radiation dose from inhaled uranium, followed by bones. DU may also lodge in and irradiate other organs. Health effects caused by DU radiation may not appear for years.

Iraqi cancers, birth defects blamed on U.S. depleted uranium


Dr. Doug Rokke was an Army health physicist assigned in 1991 to the command staff of the 12th Preventive Medicine Command and 3rd U.S. Army Medical Command headquarters. Rokke was recalled to active duty 20 years after serving in Vietnam, from his research job with the University of Illinois Physics Department, and sent to the Gulf to take charge of the DU cleanup operation.

Today, in poor health, he has become an outspoken opponent of the use of DU munitions.

"DU is the stuff of nightmares," said Rokke, who said he has reactive airway disease, neurological damage, cataracts and kidney problems, and receives a 40 percent disability payment from the government. He blames his health problems on exposure to DU.

Rokke and his primary team of about 100 performed their cleanup task without any specialized training or protective gear. Today, Rokke said, at least 30 members of the team are dead, and most of the others -- including Rokke -- have serious health problems.

Rokke said: "Verified adverse health effects from personal experience, physicians and from personal reports from individuals with known DU exposures include reactive airway disease, neurological abnormalities, kidney stones and chronic kidney pain, rashes, vision degradation and night vision losses, lymphoma, various forms of skin and organ cancer, neuropsychological disorders, uranium in semen, sexual dysfunction and birth defects in offspring.

"This whole thing is a crime against God and humanity."

•Depleted Uranium (DU) Lists & Links
•Department of Veterans Affairs Depleted Uranium Focus Area
•Depleted Uranium at The National Gulf War Resource Center, Inc.
•Trail of a Bullet – Series of articles about DU published in the Christian Science Monitor
•International Depleted Uranium Study Team
•Low Level Radiation Campaign

Depleted Uranium -- The Real Story

Arbuthnot writes: "Death stalks Basra's children from the moment of birth. . . Cancer, leukemias, and malignancies have risen up to 70% since the Gulf War, increases linked to the depleted uranium weapons used primarily by the US and UK, leaving a radioactive dust throughout the country, which according to experts has entered the food chain via the water table and the soil. . . The unimaginable can also be found in Basra. One doctor's thesis compares abnormalities since the Gulf War with Hiroshima. Dr. Jenan Ali's photographs for 1998 show full term babies undeveloped, the 'bunch of grapes' syndrome reminiscent of the Pacific Islands after the 1950's nuclear testing. Others--no face, no eyes, twisted limbs, no limbs, no brain.

In November 1995, Life magazine ran an article titled "Tiny Victims of Desert Storm," which raised the possibility that DU was implicated in these children's otherwise unexplainable deformities. For those who had the heart to look, there were photos of the children of American soldiers, some with with no arms, no legs, or misplaced inner organs, some without thyroids, with two hearts or hearts on the wrong side, enlarged heads and abdomens, and abnormal blood vessels. A presidential panel recently absolved DU of any responsibility for the catastrophic health problems faced by thousands of veterans after the Gulf War. Its guess? Certain soldiers must have had a genetic predisposition. Why doesn't it surprise me that they blamed the victims?

Deplete d uranium is WMD
by Leuren Moret

* Since 1991, the U.S. has released the radioactive atomicity equivalent of at least 400,000 Nagasaki bombs into the global atmosphere. That is 10 times the amount released during atmospheric testing which was the equivalent of 40,000 Hiroshima bombs. The U.S. has permanently contaminated the global atmosphere with radioactive pollution having a half-life of 2.5 billion years.

* DU is the Trojan Horse of nuclear war - it keeps giving and keeps killing. There is no way to clean it up, and no way to turn it off because it continues to decay into other radioactive isotopes in over 20 steps.

Leuren Moret is an international radiation specialist, with a B.S. degree in geology from University of California at Davis, a M.A. degree in Near Eastern studies from University of California at Berkeley and has done post-graduate work in the geosciences at UC-Davis. She is environmental commissioner for the City of Berkeley, Calif.

DEPLETED URANIUM EDUCATION PROJECT

Proponents for DU should be forced to inhale vaporized DU....

Opponents should use their energy to find an alternative to DU, versus the usual well gasoline is bad for the earth so get rid of it even though I have nothing to replace it with. See when your being shot at you don't think to yourself "Gee golly, this guys going to shoot me, but I wonder how safe my bullets are in a longterm environmental sense." Trust me, when your life can vanish via 7.62x39, the last thing on your mind is the after effects of DU, or the burning cars and all the toxic goodies in them, or the burning oil, or the god awful vaccinations. Matter of fact, mefloquine scared me much more at the time, and presently than DU ever did or will.

Is DU bad? Probably, but so is lead. Come to think of it, the whole concept of war is unhealthy and dangerous, I mean jesus we shot at each other with real bullets!!! I'll even admit I think DU is overused, but does it have it's place on the battlefield, most certainly does, and without any alternatives it's going to be used untill ones found.

1. What substances can be used in place of DU that has the same amor penetrating capabilities?

2. Would you support research and funding of tests to find an alternative to DU?

3. Do you think anyone cares about DU when to this day people still ignore the consequences of Agent Orange, and oppose paying for not only treatment for exposed U.S. servicemen but also the Vietnamiese people and the servicemen who still suffer the genetic effects of past Agent Orange use?

4. Have any of you actually taken a DU tipped munition and checked it out with a geiger counter? What kind of readings did you get?

5. Do you oppose the usage of DU in American industries and manufacturing?

6. Should tritium be looked at the same way as DU? Since it's basically recycled nuclear waste used quite commonly here in the states.

7. If DU isn't used on munitions and used as armor than what should we do with it? Store it in Yucca Mt? Or will it be the usual "Fix it, but not in my backyard" argument.

8. If someone was trying to kill you would you not defend yourself cause the weapon in question might use contain DU? Point being don't blame us cause we use the most effective tools given to us, blame the leaders that give us no other option or alternatives.

No one here has, to my knowledge, laid blame for using DU as a munition or armor on the troops. Fact is you guys shouldn't have been over there in the first place. The reasons given for being over there are preposterous. Believe what you will, but spreading democracy is not the agenda there any more than it is to ensure democracy at home.

The troops have been just as ill -or- misinformed as the public on DU. The troops are given no information regarding safe handling or even to avoid a contaminated area as Rokke insisted after GWI. But the white elephant is on the couch coughing and sputtering after inhaling all the DU propaganda. The elephant isn't the only thing dying and soon the Pentagon and the Neocons will begin a blame game that avoids accountability at all cost. You can be sure that the manufacturers of DU munitions will be given immunity from liability for the literal fallout from their product while, at the same time, the Pentagon will blame the manufacturers for misinforming the generals regarding the safety of their product as well as the soldiers for somehow miss-using it.

What do you do if someone's shooting at you? You don't sign up in the first place IMO. And once that mistake is made you use the same weapons that have killed men, women and children for the last 100 years and leave the DU in storage somewhere for a future generation to clean up. You refuse to arm yourself with the stuff. Are you more afraid of a court martial or spreading this stuff around the planet?

Originally posted by IAF101

The claim of indifference by the military is also debatable as not only has the military recognized GWI but also recognized the need for treatment of GWI vets and come out with the recommended treatments devised by the IMM. I have also come to know of some monetary compensation being awarded to the more severely affected with disability pay.

[edit on 3-3-2006 by IAF101]

Of course, to believe otherwise could be viewed as sedition under the regime of the Neocons.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abqtrib.com...

[edit on 3-3-2006 by seattlelaw]

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
Opponents should use their energy to find an alternative to DU, versus the usual well gasoline is bad for the earth so get rid of it even though I have nothing to replace it with.

I use propane, not gasoline as in lead by example. Everyone's responsibility for the future generations is to work for changes to the make the world better. These do not include: passivism, defeatism, condoning or making excuses to continue on a paths of destruction.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
See when your being shot at you don't think .....

So when you get back home "you do think" that bullet to the head would of been better than a slow agonizing death by organ cancer as you count the drip, drip, drip of your morphine bag while crapping your pants. You do think what the hell were you doing in Iraq when looking at your mutated retarded kid and your zombified drugged out wife that can't cope with it all.

We can ignore the facts and pollute the land so much that human extinction becomes a factor, then DU munitons won't mean squat. The piper always collects, eventually. So pay now to change it or pay a lot more later.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
1. What substances can be used in place of DU that has the same amor penetrating capabilities?

The only thing predictable in any war is destruction, death and suffering.

How to kill better is not a solution. Going to war is not a solution.
To provide alternatives to a none solution is not a solution.
The solution is do not start wars, rebuke those that want too, and take away their power.

DU Alt: But alas the thrill kill kult insanity continues in a liquid metal tungsten alloy.
www.newscientist.com...

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
2. Would you support research and funding of tests to find an alternative to DU?

War in itself is a cancer upon society. Cure the cancer, not find ways to continue it or make excuses to make it more politically correct. I support peaceful efforts, science and education for the betterment of mankind which does not include ways of death and destruction.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
3. Do you think anyone cares about DU when to this day people still ignore the consequences of Agent Orange, and oppose paying for not only treatment for exposed U.S. servicemen but also the Vietnamiese people and the servicemen who still suffer the genetic effects of past Agent Orange use?

Hundreds of activist groups and millions of people care and they will also show you the military industrial complex are death merchants that use the masses as fodder to stay in power. You fight for the future or you let them carve you up and spit you out to be used for thieir future...your choice.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
4. Have any of you actually taken a DU tipped munition and checked it out with a geiger counter? What kind of readings did you get?

Slow cooking the tankers: Inside a tank fully loaded with shielded DU munitions the dose rate is about .5 millirem per hour. DU is 99% uranium-238. I suggest you start researching and read all the links here before you go play around DU munitions or cracking open sealed tritium coated instruments.

Calculated and measured doses

The impact of one 120-mm tank round with the 5.35 kg DU penetrator on an armored target, with 18 - 70% of the penetrator rod oxidizing into aerosol, is taken as an example. The initial contaminated area from the impact of one DU tank round inaccessible to general public (50 m radius circle) is about 0.8 hectares. If contamination spreads with weather elements up to 38 hectares become inaccessible to general public, with 0.9 nCi/m2 the allowed surface contamination for general public.

The air contamination after the impact and before the DU dust settles can be estimated to maximum of soluble uranium 16 times higher than the NRC limit for radiation workers and 3,500 times higher than the allowed air concentration for general public. The maximum air concentration of insoluble uranium is 800 times higher than the NRC limit for radiation workers and 180,000 times higher than the allowed air concentration for general public.

The residual contamination in Iraq 8 years after the end of the Golf War in the oil fields north of Kuwait was measured. It showed radiation levels 35 times above the background over parts of the battlefield and 50 times above the background over the rusting tanks hit by DU ammunition.

The accumulated dose equivalent becomes significant when spent but unexploded DU penetrators are worn by army personnel as war souvenirs in direct contact with the skin (1,800 rem/year) or when used by children as toys. The skin dose equivalent limit of 50 mrem/year for radiation workers would be reached in about 10 days. source

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
5. Do you oppose the usage of DU in American industries and manufacturing?

There is no use in the business were as it leads to making mankind obsolete thru destruction of the enviroment. Pay now to change it or pay more later.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
6. Should tritium be looked at the same way as DU? Since it's basically recycled nuclear waste used quite commonly here in the states.

Commonality doesn't excuse stupidity. Stupid is still as stupid does.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
7. If DU isn't used on munitions and used as armor than what should we do with it? Store it in Yucca Mt? Or will it be the usual "Fix it, but not in my backyard" argument.

Guess we better look how to bond nuclear waste with silicon for storage until we can develop fusion reactors, ehh? That does not include spreading nuke waste on the surfaces of third world countries.
www.sciencedaily.com...

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
8. If someone was trying to kill you would you not defend yourself cause the weapon in question might use contain DU? Point being don't blame us cause we use the most effective tools given to us, blame the leaders that give us no other option or alternatives.

First of all, you're stupid to put yourself in such a position, so don't do it if you plan to survive, have kids and live to see grandkids.

Second, no one is trying to kill me and I don't use DU if it was self defense. I hold myself accountable for my actions rather than playing the blame game. Wrong plus wrong does not equal right.

Blame Game
• Nothing get's resolved .
• Facades continue.
• No one is directly held accountable.
• Irresponsibility escalates.
• No one gains the ability of introspection.

[edit on 3-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

Sandia Depleted Uranium Study: No Serious Health Risks Found

Accordingly, when findings indicate otherwise, they are tainted, skewed, and biased. Watch and see with the fortcoming comments....

As to the exact count for how many times this topic has already been rehashed...guess.




seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Sandia Depleted Uranium Study: No Serious Health Risks Found[/url]

Considering Sandia National Laboratories engineers nuke weapon parts why would they make a report that cuts their own throats? I suppose they said the same thing back in the days after WW2 when the DoD sent soldiers into atomic blast zones.



As you can see the blame game continues with no one accepting responsibility. Meanwhile the UK is still sucking up above normal rems, so maybe we can have a glow in the dark vacant Europe in the future.

Originally posted by seattlelaw
No one here has, to my knowledge, laid blame for using DU as a munition or armor on the troops. Fact is you guys shouldn't have been over there in the first place. The reasons given for being over there are preposterous. Believe what you will, but spreading democracy is not the agenda there any more than it is to ensure democracy at home.

What do you do if someone's shooting at you? You don't sign up in the first place IMO. And once that mistake is made you use the same weapons that have killed men, women and children for the last 100 years and leave the DU in storage somewhere for a future generation to clean up. You refuse to arm yourself with the stuff. Are you more afraid of a court martial or spreading this stuff around the planet?

Oh so this is just a neocon issue? You think all the munitions the military had just got put in the closet during Clintons 8 years? Was spreading democracy the reason we went into Somalia? Bosnia? Central/South America during the 90's and now? Oh we don't care about Cen/South America cause FoxNews, Moveon.org, CNN, and inforwars tells us not to, so nothing there must be going on. The one thing civilians will never understand is how the military has been misused since the end of WWII no matter what political party is in power Somolia and Bosnia are great examples. And another thing you ovbiously don't understand is some people sign up due to the fact college is attractive yet they don't have the means to get there themselves. If your folks can afford college for you great, but even though I had many scholarships offered I still couldn't afford it. So 2 options, be a construction worker, or, join the military to do a suck job for however many years and get college at the end. Even though it sucked I'm still further ahead in life.

Also, it's fine and dandy to be idealistic, but try being realistic for a change. War's happen, and war's will always happen as long as you leeches keep wanting your oil, and diamonds, and drugs cheap. See, you love your lifestyles and under no circumstances are you willing sacrfice aspects of your materilstic lifestyles, all the while ignoring the consequences it has on the world.

What do you do if someone's shooting at you? You don't sign up in the first place IMO. And once that mistake is made you use the same weapons that have killed men, women and children for the last 100 years and leave the DU in storage somewhere for a future generation to clean up. You refuse to arm yourself with the stuff. Are you more afraid of a court martial or spreading this stuff around the planet?

I take it you've never served? We can sit here all day long and talking about signing up, or not signing up, but that doesn't change dick now does it? You honestly think a person thinks about anything except for the sweet sticky now in combat? This isn't paintball or airsoft, and yeah, it's kinda hard to get someone concerned about something that'll kill them 10 years from now when they can be dead in 5 min. That's not flawed, that's reality and with all due respect you have an awfully hard time grasping that.

So when you get back home "you do think" that bullet to the head would of been better than a slow agonizing death by organ cancer as you count the drip, drip, drip of your morphine bag while crapping your pants. You do think what the hell were you doing in Iraq when looking at your mutated retarded kid and your zombified drugged out wife that can't cope with it all.

Uhh, ok you're talking as if this is 100% right, you're ovbiously not showing me any stats here. Give me a perventage of soldiers that have served that suffer those symptoms right there cause I just haven't seen it. 1 tour in Afganistan, 2 in Iraq, so far none of the men I served along side, or myself have suffered any of these ills. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, I can't speak for everyone ovbiously, I'm just going off my personal experience and the people I served with. That isn't disinfo either, so I hope you can wrap your head around that. IN REALITY if anyone will suffer those symptoms it'll be the Iraqis much more than the service men since we don't usually shoot at ourselves our exposure is much lower compared to the people in and around buildings destroyed with bombs, or peppered with DU tipped shells/rounds. I would guess handling it wouldn't be near as dangerious as inhaling particles the particles.

My son is neither retarded, or suffers from any unusual birth defects nor illnesses, and I'm awfully sorry that disappoints you.

The only thing predictable in any war is destruction, death and suffering.

How to kill better is not a solution. Going to war is not a solution.
To provide alternatives to a none solution is not a solution.
The solution is do not start wars, rebuke those that want too, and take away their power.

Back do dreamland again, jeeze. It's that simple huh? As it stands right now not only is your "solution" impossible, but it's also never going to happen. Men have fought each other for 1000's of years and we just know figure out we shouldn't start them? My god! If people changed their lifestyles there wouldn't be a need for war. What are you doing to prevent war right now?

Back to reality, there's a void on the battlefield that needs to be filled, DU fills that void and your only alternative is "ideas", well sorry to dissappoint but that's just not feasible at the moment. War can be debated all day long, but guess what, that doesn't change the fact that people lives are on the line right now. For some reason you like the concept of throwing us to the wolves. You're alternative is nothing more than a dream, I try to inform you that reality dictates if you don't have something better to use, then you'll keep using the same thing. I'm not justifing a damn thing, but using your ideology nothing will ever get accomplished. In perfect world maybe, but this world's far from perfect. Would I support a ban of DU if there was a safer alternative, of course, but how are you going to govern Russia's use of it in Chechnya, or France's use of it in West Africa? If want to end the spread of DU then the ban needs to be world wide, just like the atmospheric testing ban. By the way, have you written your congressmen asking them to propose legislation to ban all atmospheric DU usage? No? Yes?

War in itself is a cancer upon society. Cure the cancer, not find ways to continue it or make excuses to make it more politically correct. I support peaceful efforts, science and education for the betterment of mankind which does not include ways of death and destruction.

Give me solutions, not dreams. Dreams acomplish nothing, solutions do. Cure the cancer you say? Where do you live, I'll come free you from your possessions like your car, computer, and other assorted items. Better mankind then come and talk to me, your ideas have no effect on current issues, they are just hopes, wants, and dreams. I'm not disrespecting you either, it's just the way the world turns. I love laughing at people that bitch about a war for oil, as they drive their car to work everyday. Like a junkie complaining how he gets his heroin.

Hundred of activist groups and millions of people care and they will also show you the military industrial complex are death merchants that use the masses as fodder to stay in power. You fight for the future or you let them carve you up and spit you out to be used for thieir future...your choice.

You didn't answer my question. Are you willing to pay for it? Would you mind your taxes being rasied to help pay for the costs to clean up our mess as far back as Vietnam and Agent Orange? So far people have showed be they're willing to skip a shower, grab a hackey sack and carry a sign, but I haven't seen anyone throwing down their hard earned dollars to actually fix the problem. You keep buying your vices, and that's what keeps these people in power.

There is no use in the business were as it leads to making mankind obsolete thru destruction of the enviroment. Pay now to change it or pay more later.

I'm glad we agree on something, sort of I guess. I mean we have a hole in the ozone layer, and ovbiously you have a PC, maybe even a lap top, DVD, player, TV, ect. Do you have any idea of how much freon goes into the atmosphere soldering one circut board in a 3rd world country where it's assembled by child labor? Sorry if I have a hard time with someone preaching about the destruction the the environment when they're busy killing their share of it with their oil, TV's ect. DU may have more, or less of an effect than freon and the hole in the ozone layer, you know that little thing that keeps us shielded from the suns radiation, but I think we both agree that destruction is destruction and wrong no matter how you look at it.

quote: Originally posted by WithoutEqual
6. Should tritium be looked at the same way as DU? Since it's basically recycled nuclear waste used quite commonly here in the states.

Commonality doesn't excuse stupidity. Stupid is still as stupid does.

More one liners?

That is neither an answer to my question or a solution, have fun when they put up street signs that contain tritium across from your house, so you can hop on the internet and do something about it while the sign keeps sitting there. Don't be too worried, you probably breate more tritium in any given day than what's in the sign anyway.

Guess we better look how to bond nuclear waste with silicon for storage until we can develop fusion reactors, ehh? That does not include spreading nuke waste on the surfaces of third world countries.

Cold fusion sounds great to me. Then we can take a look at putting a stop to the spreading of toxic chemicals in thrid world countries, where people suffer from the health effects of YOUR LIFESTYLE. Don't get too preachy when you computer has a motherboard that was assembled by slave labor and soldered through the use of freon in open baths that just evaporate into the air.

First of all, you're stupid to put yourself in such a position, so don't do it if you plan to survive, have kids and live to see grandkids.

Second, no one is trying to kill me and I don't use DU if it was self defense. I hold myself accountable for my actions rather than playing the blame game. Wrong plus wrong does not equal right.

I'm stupid for putting meself in that position, or are you cause your foolish enough to think that you can actually stop war, without mankind sacrficing anything? I mean, you have all the answers for the world, and how to stop all wars yet, you can't debate an issue without resorting to personal attacks? LMAO.

WithoutEqual I'm stupid for putting meself in that position, or are you cause your foolish enough to think that you can actually stop war, without mankind sacrficing anything? I mean, you have all the answers for the world, and how to stop all wars yet, you can't debate an issue without resorting to personal attacks? LMAO.

Hey pal, there are always excuses provided for murdering innocent people. Yours isn't the first. Any murderer believes he's justified in pulling the trigger or plunging the knife or swinging the hammer. BFD. The answer is in not picking up the weapon. You have to come to the conclusion that murder is wrong IN ALL INSTANCES or it will continue to repeat. You obviously believe that it's ok to murder people. I do not. I do not choose go to foreign countries with an M-16 and an attitude of killing gooks or slopes or ragheads and then wonder why they shoot at me.

And if you think using a computer manufactured in China is the reason you were in Iraq or Afghanistan you are completely hopeless. But justify away your mudering ways. Keep it up. Maybe it will go over with your wife but it ain't gonna fly with me. We all live with our decisions and you'll have to live with your demons without absolution here. I don't have to murder someone in order to be a man. You didn't either. You screwed up. You made a bad choice. You did. No one else. Whatever you did over there, whoever you killed, it's your fault. How about owning that? Now, was it worth it? It had better be or you will live a tortured existence. So continue to justify the madness. It's the only choice you have.

[edit on 3-3-2006 by seattlelaw]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Sandia Depleted Uranium Study: No Serious Health Risks Found

Accordingly, when findings indicate otherwise, they are tainted, skewed, and biased. Watch and see with the fortcoming comments....

As to the exact count for how many times this topic has already been rehashed...guess.

Yeah, I checked that link. You lost that argument too. Emphatically.




[edit on 3-3-2006 by seattlelaw]

For anybody interested in more articles about DU.

Bush's hometown paper prints entire issue on DU

HAVE DU WILL TRAVEL
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF

When The Iconoclast learned of a study conducted by Chris Busby and Saoirse Morgan that suggests that depleted uranium radiation had travelled from Iraq to Great Britain during “shock and awe,” we knew it was time to more fully explore the implications.

We decided to “lay it all on the table,” as best we could by interviewing noted scientists and people in the know about radiation, those who have become medical casualties, those who have gone through the military system, and those who possess an upper tier knowledge of radiation in general.

This is clear: the day that depleted uranium was introduced into the arsenal of doom was quite literally the day the earth stood still, with scientists worldwide uniting to voice concern that genocide had found a home on our planet. At the other extreme, militarists hailed the nuclear substance as their newest advantage in maximizing destruction. It became a trump card with the ability to destroy the masses, even those yet unborn.

~~

Among those interviewed, in the order they appear in this feature, were:

• Chris Busby, author of the study: “Did the use of Uranium weapons in Gulf War 2 result in contamination of Europe?”

• Leuren Moret, geological scientist and international radiation expert.

• Dr. Ernest J. Sternglass, Emeritus Professor of Radiological Physics in the Department of Radiology, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

• Dr. Rosalie Bertell, PhD, GNSH, President of the International Institute of Concern for Public Health (IICPH), and Editor in Chief of International Perspectives in Public Health.

• Major Doug Rokke, Ph.D. (retired), former director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project, Vietnam and Gulf War Veteran.

• Major Denise Nichols (retired), Gulf War Veteran and retired U.S. Air Force Reserve Major,Vice Chairman of the National Vietnam Veteran and Gulf War Veterans Coalition.

• Ann Ham, Public Affairs, U.S. Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine.

• Captain William Roberts, Multi-National Forces Iraq Spokesman.

• Tim Hix, Vietnam Veteran exposed to Agent Orange, dying of cancer.

• Karl Schwarz, presidential candidate, author, technology company founder whose son served in Iraq.

Originally posted by seattlelaw
Hey pal, there are always excuses provided for murdering innocent people. Yours isn't the first. Any murderer believes he's justified in pulling the trigger or plunging the knife or swinging the hammer. BFD. The answer is in not picking up the weapon.

If all you can do a personally attack me YOU WILL NEVER ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. So you might as well and admit YOU'RE doing nothing to fix the problem. You can be a bomb thrower, or a problem solver, you're ovbiously a bomb thrower.

First of all if being in war, and having to do the job amounts to murder then you might as well call us hitmen that YOU CONTRACTED. Every American has blood on their hands don't forget that. Secondly, I haven't nor will I justify anything that happens in war cause that's not the issue at hand. War will keep happeing as long as the worlds full of bomb throwers instead of problem solvers. Think about it, if you can't take part in a debate, without disrespecting the other person, and calling him names, then how can you honestly say you can end all wars? You don't even have the maturity to deal with issues on a internet forum much less international affairs. Grow up first, then fix the world.

Unlike you, I actually do have a clue as to why wars are fought, so please refrain from telling me what we were in Afganistan for considering it's the same reason were in Central/South America, and why we went to NAM. Think about it, there's alot more money in heroin than a godamn pipeline that may or may not go through that perticular country and you people ate that up big time, all the while heroin production hit an all time high and you people still can't figure it out. Even when we guard poppie fields you still can't put 2 and 2 together. Trust me kid, I have no illusions as to why wars are fought, yet you take the bait like a good fish and keep on thinking it's about the Unocal pipeline, the pipeline, the pipeline. As I've said before, this country is a conmans dream. Iraq was ovbiously for oil, oil that you people suck up like Tim Allen in a coke factory. Why is it, Americans have such a hard time with "Cause and Effect"?

See this started over DU, and turned into the usual political pissing contest which has never solved anything. While you people are convinced dreams, and complaing on the internet is doing something, it's actually not. Why do you suppose in you folk's quest to reveal the truth and destroy ignorance never gets anywhere past a couple posts on the net? You're approach either sucks, or is unrealistic. For some odd reason when I say they'll never stop using DU unless there's something to take it's place you assume I'm justifying the usage when in reality I'm asking "When has the gov't ever stopped doing something just because it's unhealthy and people are whining on the net?" You people will never help the victims of DU exposure as long as your best solution is "Don't go to war" or "It's wrong."

Look at it this way. Do you really think, you can convince the government to care about the people of this world, and to stop the use of DU? They didn't care one bit when they were injecting plutonium into pregnant mothers here in the states so tell me Mr. Knowladge, what's your ace in the sleeve to convince these guys to listen to you? Let me tell you right now, they don't care, half the world could tear up and freak out and they still wouldn't care, and DU will still be used. So what's the only solution I can see? A business one, ovbiously there's a market for material that can defeat many types of armor, so that's get the ball rolling, not only can we save the world from DU, but we can make a hell of alot of money doing so. Or we can bitch, and still wonder why after 3 years we're still in Iraq. In 3 years your method hasn't worked, what makes you think it's going to in the next 3 years.

Y'all don't have to agree with me, that's your right thanks to former "murders" like myself, but at least I respect everyone here and their opinions, without personally attacking them. Calling a soldier a murderer is no different than calling you a rapist for living on something that once was Native American land, and for buying products made with slave labor. You don't have to like what I did over there, and frankly it's really none of your business, just like your "sins" are none of my business either. You calling me a murderer was a lame attempt to get in my head, and literally play with my emotions over something I perviously did, and it didn't work, even so, isn't that a little sadistic and sick? I think we may have a future Karl Rove on our hands!

The one thing people need to implant in their heads, is the fact that if you want to change things you have to SELL it. Just like the gov't sold a majority of people the war in Iraq, you have to sell people on the fact it's wrong. You're dealing with a society with a 15 min attention span that's attracted to things that look shiny, versus truthful. And if you cloud your sales pitch with the usual political crap anyone can find on the net you won't sell anyone. There's a damn good reason why politicians hire PR frims. The second you politicize the issue by blaming political parties, you cut your market in half which is why you're getting nowhere fast.

Mod Edit: Quoting Etiquette – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 3-3-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Okay, let's get back on topic, which is DU dust is a poison.
There's no need for some of the remarks I've seen here.
We don't need to be using political labels such as noe-con or calling out each other, let's keep this respectful.

The End of Political Baiting and Sniping on ATS—Please Review

First of all if being in war, and having to do the job amounts to murder then you might as well call us hitmen that YOU CONTRACTED. Every American has blood on their hands don't forget that.

Just like a Neocon to blame everyone but himself. No pal, I did not vote for the invasion. I pleaded for reason to prevail. I shouted but was ignored and called a PEACENIK. I was derided and chastised as a sympathiser and un-American. So don't give me THAT BS! I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

We are all responsible for what WE DO as individuals. You are responsible for what YOU DID as an individual. Blaming it on others is typical but not constructive.

I'll tell you who I RESPECT. I respect those who went to Canada, or better, those who declined to serve even on Naval ships as PRINCIPLED AMERICANS. Those who shot innocent civilians I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR. If you did this you are a MURDERER and deserve punishment for it. Period, pal.

Dont want to interject but :

Originally posted by Regenmacher
I use propane, not gasoline as in lead by example.

Propane is not all that better when compared to gasoline or diesel. For as the latter it is yet another hydrocarbon that you try to 'de-carbonize' in order to extract energy.
Lead by example would be to use electric or fuel cell rather than yet more hydrocarbons. Also with propane as it is more readily combustible the combustion is most often not complete. Add to that the inefficiency in the standard gasoline engine that I would think you most probably have converted you end up releasing a lot of unburned propane into the atmosphere which is quiet harmful to the atmosphere.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
We can ignore the facts and pollute the land so much that human extinction becomes a factor, then DU munitons won't mean squat. The piper always collects, eventually. So pay now to change it or pay a lot more later.

As in all science, this takes time and patience is required and so is money.
The govt. would need to spend more money on research of weapons that apart form maintaing the present level of lethality would also need to keep the long term environmental issues in mind. This drives up the cost exponentially for research and the cost of producing munitions. Which boils down to more money.
If there comes a day in the future G'd forbid, that America's very integrity is threatened by a foreign power then with this type of pernickety will inhibit our ability to defend America's sovereign integrity because the costs would be so prohibitive.

The solution is do not start wars, rebuke those that want too, and take away their power.

Exactly, but this can not be done always with paper and pen but sometimes with men and weapons. Weapons that expedite war.
As for the liquid metal Tungsten alloy that you refer to, it is important to remember the "price of war", as we would have it. Moreover even such tungsten alloy do still pose a health hazard as they can cancers as well, though less toxic in comparison with lead and DU.

Slow cooking the tankers: Inside a tank fully loaded with shielded DU munitions the dose rate is about .5 millirem per hour. DU is 99% uranium-238.

This is incorrect technically in terms that the DU armour is used for shielding and not DU munitions. Also the DU munitions is kept behind a blast proof door of reinforced alloy steel. Plus as natural U-238 is so abundant in our body (*check previous post with table of radionucleis in the body) that the amount of cell tissue damage by alpha decomposition would be almost akin to exposure in a granite cathedral. Plus tank-crew protection kits provide even enough cover for even beta radiative damage (*check out alpha damage source in previous posts) rendering any alpha decay harmless.
The article of DU tank munitions radiation is also incorrect, as all official and verifiable date on the subject does not make any such claims. The ability of DU munitions to contaminate 35 hectares is absurd, unless it was actually plutonium in use rather than DU.

First of all, you're stupid to put yourself in such a position, so don't do it if you plan to survive, have kids and live to see grandkids.

Untrue, military service is a service to the nation, a duty that is borne by many in every nation. To say that people should think only of themselves and their comforts without including the interest of the nation and the values of society at large is sub-human. Those who volunteer for military service do so fully realizing that they would have to give their lives for their nation.
It is disrespectful to say the least to think of military service in such meager terms.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
Uhh, ok you're talking as if this is 100% right, you're ovbiously not showing me any stats here.

My son is neither retarded, or suffers from any unusual birth defects nor illnesses, and I'm awfully sorry that disappoints you.

First off you can quit confusing me with the thrill kill defeatism kult as in thinking I would be disappointed by no sick kids. Gambling with the reaper has only losers. We all will have severe problems and it's just a matter of time in a world that sees destruction as a means to an end. You can pretend all you that the road of destruction will not inflict heavy mortality on thwe world.

Poisoned? Shocking report reveals local troops
may be victims of america's high-tech weapons

Why don't you go to the local VA hospital and ask around, then you'll see that radiation poisoned guy on the morphine drip bag dying of cancer, hear about their retarded deformed kids, see the guy with no legs or arms, talk to the blind, and sign with the deaf. Words only go so far, go with the direct experience.

Considering the Pentagon doesn't look into DU radiation poisoning, they won't find anything and if they don't find anything then there is no correlation. If there's no correlation, there's no liability. Cases are building and they will be forced to change, since they won't voluntarily.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
Back do dreamland again, jeeze. It's that simple huh? As it stands right now not only is your "solution" impossible, but it's also never going to happen. Men have fought each other for 1000's of years and we just know figure out we shouldn't start them? My god! If people changed their lifestyles there wouldn't be a need for war. What are you doing to prevent war right now?

The words never and impossible is an excuse to fail. So what benefit is their in embracing a hopeless loser mentality unless you plan to fail? I'll stick to dreaming and work on manifesting it.

Man thought the for 1000's of years landing on the moon was a dream too. They will change there lifestyles now or suffer even more later. Destruction and pollution will naturally lead to lower standards of living over time.

My plan for now is advanced education funded through my trust. I already busted my rear, forgoed luxuries and vacations, worked two jobs and 100+ hour weeks, saved every damn dime to become financially independent, so my daughter could go to MIT and EPFL in hopes of finding these solutions and so I could be free to work on solutions. The future is the children and not our me first butts...time for sacrafices. The more knowledge about the repercussions of destruction and war, the less likely people commit to it as a solution. Time to embrace an age of enlightment or die off fighting like dogs.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
Back to reality, there's a void on the battlefield that needs to be filled, DU fills that void and your only alternative is "ideas", well sorry to dissappoint but that's just not feasible at the moment.....By the way, have you written your congressmen asking them to propose legislation to ban all atmospheric DU usage? No? Yes?

Feasible smeasible your under the illusion this problem gets cheaper to fix over time and it does not. Feasible is fixing it now and enough of that fix it tomorrow crap.

Start writing yourself, I do it all the time. Here's some links to get you started:
www.saar.at...
www.petitiononline.com...
mccain.senate.gov...

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
I love laughing at people that bitch about a war for oil, as they drive their car to work everyday. Like a junkie complaining how he gets his heroin.

Junkies eventually crash on their face and die or they get real. Tell them to start walking or use alternate fuels. Tell them get used to being crapped on as wage slaves for big inc. or plan a way to escape.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
Are you willing to pay for it? Would you mind your taxes being rasied to help pay for the costs to clean up our mess as far back as Vietnam and Agent Orange? So far people have showed be they're willing to skip a shower, grab a hackey sack and carry a sign, but I haven't seen anyone throwing down their hard earned dollars to actually fix the problem. You keep buying your vices, and that's what keeps these people in power.

Oh but they will change their lifestyles. They can have forced changed thru destruction of the enviroment, economic collapses and global war. Or they can put all their resources into innovation and finding solutions now and save their butts from hard times.

Time to face reality, since temporary quick fixes like oil wars is only good for junkies in a junkie world. Taxes in a corrupt system is pearls before swine. You want a better world then we restructure the system, and put in controls for government to be held accountable for damages. Hold corporations liable for eco-damage. Make all advanced education free for solutions to clean up the planet and increase effiency. Start a Manhattan style project on energy alternatives. Hold responsibility to the future at all costs.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
That is neither an answer to my question or a solution, have fun when they put up street signs that contain tritium across from your house, so you can hop on the internet and do something about it while the sign keeps sitting there. Don't be too worried, you probably breate more tritium in any given day than what's in the sign anyway.

As I said stupid actions is still stupid, doesn't make it right or excuse DU use. Eliminate it all from use, NOW. Just do it, enough excuses.

Tritium EXIT Signs: A Serious Hazard? www.lightpanel.com...
Banned in my state.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
Cold fusion sounds great to me. Then we can take a look at putting a stop to the spreading of toxic chemicals in thrid world countries, where people suffer from the health effects of YOUR LIFESTYLE. Don't get too preachy when you computer has a motherboard that was assembled by slave labor and soldered through the use of freon in open baths that just evaporate into the air.

Nothing excuses wrongs as in child labor or pollution that leads to global decline. Their governments should also grasp the idea of a future for their kids instead of raping the planet for quick profits to feed American consumerism. The blame and excuse game will end with a global collapse, if the masses don't wake up. We can either grasp a sense of future or watch it all crumble.

Originally posted by WithoutEqual
I'm stupid for putting meself in that position, or are you cause your foolish enough to think that you can actually stop war, without mankind sacrficing anything? I mean, you have all the answers for the world, and how to stop all wars yet, you can't debate an issue without resorting to personal attacks? LMAO.

Those who start a war can stop it by not starting it, and get that into their freaking thick heads that war is never a solution. If they can't, then they suffer, collapse and die off. I can debate an issue without personal attacks which doesn't disregard the Darwinian fact your still stupid to be in a combat zone with vaporized DU by choice. I call it like it is...stupid is no attack, it's fact. I was a stupid grunt, but repeating those mistakes and expecting different results means I have become insane.

Change starts with the one person than can truelly effect change, yourself.

I except no excuses, so you can forget about giving me any.

Originally posted by IAF101
Propane is not all that better when compared to gasoline or diesel. ...end up releasing a lot of unburned propane into the atmosphere which is quiet harmful to the atmosphere.

Hogwash, propane is vastly better than gasoline. I got a $10k tax writeoff, 85% of natgas doesn't come from the ME, and my vehicle's emissions are virtually zero across the board.

www.eere.energy.gov...

I am also in the market for new modes of transportation as they become available and bike or walk most the time. I fund the hydrogen project at the local college, and been working with my uncle on ethanol legislation since the 80's.

So what are you doing besides making excuses and pointing fingers?

Originally posted by IAF101
As in all science....If there comes a day in the future G'd forbid, that America's very integrity is threatened by a foreign power....

Yeah yeah we all can make lots of excuses to perpetuate and condone destruction. So you must think there is not a higher power that will judge for for destroying his creations ehh?


Or are you serving a dark master as shown by your "confess hate" and an evil looking vampiric avatar? Using DU is probably valid to your lifestyle of destruction then ehh?

Originally posted by IAF101
This is incorrect technically in terms that the DU armour is used for shielding and not DU munitions. ......was actually plutonium in use rather than DU.

How much do you get paid to write spin on "it's okay suffer and die off" stuff anyways?

I suggest you jump in a battle ready Abrams and look at your dosameter then. 10 rems per year is the civilian occupational max, they excede that in 20 hours.

Verified by who, the DoD or independent scientists? Like anthrax shots are safe and they then discontinued them, that DoD? Surely you jest.

Originally posted by IAF101
Untrue, military service is a service to the nation, a duty that is borne by many in every nation....
It is disrespectful to say the least to think of military service in such meager terms.

Duty smooty, there would be no need if humanity changed it's point of view. Sub-human is a solution through means of destruction. Disrespect is destroying habitat and it's inhabitants. There's no honor in participating government mandated murder to condone and perpetuate more destructive lifestyles and more murder.

I suspect we are polar opposites, since I am futurist, respect creation above destruction, and an efficiency activist. War or destruction never adds up to being future oriented or efficient. It adds up to caveman logic that should of died off in thought 1000's of years ago and leads to global thermonuclear annhilation.

My purpose in life is to get through it with the fewest acts of destruction and leave more than I take. Still learning the mission also.

So why don't you define for us what your purpose in life is?



[edit on 4-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

by WithoutEqualUnlike you, I actually do have a clue as to why wars are fought,

And if you believe wars are fought for reasons other than so that some few can make a helluva lot of cash you have no idea. But since your statement is not supported I can only guess.

so please refrain from telling me what we were in Afganistan for ...

I wouldn't dream of it, unless it was to indicate that the war was threatened by the US when the Unocal rep's were told by the Taliban that the pipeline was not going through. When they were told that in ~ June 2001 the response was that the bombs would begin falling before the first snow if they didn't change their minds. So tell me, how does it feel being an oil warrior? And it's not to fuel my vehicles, it's to ensure and increase the profits of the Unocals of the world. New Orleans post Katrina has shown that our vaunted govt. cares not at all about the lives or ordinary citizens. They couldn't care less whether our vehicles were running. China is the future. These international conglomerates are focusing on the long term, and it's all about positioning themselves to profit in Asia, pal. We are ancient history.

... considering it's the same reason were in Central/South America, and why we went to NAM. Think about it, there's alot more money in heroin than a godamn pipeline that may or may not go through that perticular country and you people ate that up big time, all the while heroin production hit an all time high and you people still can't figure it out. Even when we guard poppie fields you still can't put 2 and 2 together. Trust me kid,

I am 45 next month, but thanks.

I have no illusions as to why wars are fought, yet you take the bait like a good fish and keep on thinking it's about the Unocal pipeline, the pipeline, the pipeline. As I've said before, this country is a conmans dream. Iraq was ovbiously for oil, oil that you people suck up like Tim Allen in a coke factory. Why is it, Americans have such a hard time with "Cause and Effect"?

So it's drugs AND oil. Alright, I won't dispute that the CIA is the biggest drug cartel in the world and that oil and drugs go together, sure. But what has that to do with the topic at hand which is the use of DU by our military? Heroin has a big profit margin but it doesn't pollute the environment we have no choice about living in. The use of uranium weapons, whether nukes or DU, is self defeating for us as a race. The indicator species are warning us about mercury and pcbs and rather than right that wrong we start tossing around thousands of tons of uranium with a half life many, many times longer than recorded history on this planet. You tell me, what's wrong with this picture?

As you say, anyone with an IQ of 70 should be able to figure it out.

How about you? Why don't you join us instead of adopting a defeatist attitude about this stuff? Are you still afraid? Fear is irrelevant. Let's join forces to protect the planet for our children and their children and their children. Let's not be so selfish as to believe that Armageddon is here in our lifetimes. It's what they want you to believe. They rely upon a morally defeated citizenry wallowing in self pity. What do you say soldier? It's time to put down the guns and pick up the plowshare. You have a lot to offer.

[edit on 4-3-2006 by seattlelaw]