In-car monitoring: Everything you do in your car may soon be noticed

So, I am not sure if this is the right location for this post, if it's not please feel free to move it.

Some headline huh? I did a quick search on here and didn't immediately see anything about it posted.

I came across this article about a half hour ago, and something about it... Well, it made me pretty uneasy.

Here is a link to the article

Now I understand it's pretty hard to get away from these things in this current day and age, however, it doesn't make it any less invasive and uncomfortable. With the willingness of integration of things like Amazons Echo and Doorbell system, this seems like the final nail in the coffin for privacy. I'm sure there are some safety aspects about it that MAY be beneficial.... And sure most cars since I believe 2011 have had the Black Box installed, but I think this is really pushing the ticket.

Millimeter-wave radar is perhaps the most intriguing in-car detection tech. The apparatus itself can be compact because its frequency is so high and therefore its emitted wavelength is short. I've seen several examples about the size of a card deck that could easily be mounted on the headliner of a car and look down at its cabin. Texas Instruments has been showing carmakers how that view can not only detect objects in the vehicle but also classify them as an adult, a child or even a dog. Mount that same radar inside a seat and you can detect small movements in the driver's body that, with enough computing power, can be translated into a reading of respiration rate.

Soooo, bio-metric/facial recognition/and position sensors... Well they might as well be sitting in the car with you.



According to this, the vehicle, and whoever is watching the cameras, can detect everything from your mood, to where you're looking. They even suggest it can go as far as figuring out your intention. Every time you enter, every where you go, how you're feeling when you do these things. Bam-A-Lam it will be stored. I imagine, if an official of some sort wanted, they can easily pull up the file with their phone or with a specialized thumb drive to get the data.

How will hackers and the like take advantage of this technology? Spying on you while you're none the wiser? I wonder how hard it would be.

Forget about private intimacy in your car, if you're among the younger generation. Soon there won't really be a choice. Private conversations? Any conversation? Picking your nose? I am already against Alexas, all the voice recognition and camera tech in game systems, the invasion of social media and the internet at large, now we aren't safe even in our cars? They are really designing this so we soon wont have a choice, aren't they?



What I'm curious about, is when will vehicles like this be mandatory? I am a classic car nut myself, I daily drive an 08 Impala, and I am perfectly happy with the ride, and the features I have. I don't really see myself needing to upgrade for any reason. In the garage I have my 88 Camaro, and that is even more bare bones, if I could drive it all year round without worrying about weather, I would.

Will traditional cars be banned? Will they be retro-fitted with this new tech? Will used car lots and the like be outlawed?

I'm sure that wont happen any time soon, but this is a grave moment for privacy.

What left is there for them to take away?

What can we even do?

a reply to: AnnihilateThis


Wait till it's widely in use and watch what the car insurance lobby does with it.
"We are sorry, but your claim has been denied due to you suffering from "stress" (or several other excuses they can come up with using information from this BOX).


Of course that would mean our trustworthy congress persons would agree with these new rules.

a reply to: AnnihilateThis

Relax. They might be putting this tech into new vehicles, but we're not there yet. Just because they "can" doesn't mean they "will."

Anyways I'm safe. I drive an '03 Honda. I don't even have a remote key fob. I wouldn't want GPS or to sync my phone to my car. It's bad enough that my phone can tell me where I parked.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: AnnihilateThis


Wait till it's widely in use and watch what the car insurance lobby does with it.
"We are sorry, but your claim has been denied due to you suffering from "stress" (or several other excuses they can come up with using information from this BOX).


Of course that would mean our trustworthy congress persons would agree with these new rules.

This is a very strange time indeed, I can't even imagine whats in store for the next decade.

a reply to: seeker1963
this, this, a thousand times this.
You know how insurance companies already offer you a discount if you put their device in your car? This would be that on steroids.
They already have the ability to connect a device that records all of your electronic data in the car, and see if you were speeding or what not. Thus they offer you a discount as they can more often than not just settle out of court with other insurance companies with that information and then if you were the cause of the accident or what have you, they can say you were driving negligently and thus their full coverage does not apply.

Also the year that the "black box" stuff started rolling out was in 2007, but was not mandatory until the model year 2011 (2010).

originally posted by: dubiousatworst
a reply to: seeker1963

Also the year that the "black box" stuff started rolling out was in 2007, but was not mandatory until the model year 2011 (2010).

Thank you for that clarification, that black box generally determines vehicle speed, throttle position, airbag deployment times, whether the brakes were applied, if seatbelts were worn, engine speed, steering angles... Just general diagnostics really, right? Usually just around the time of a crash? Or is it constant and reset maybe after every few cycles of the engine?

I hope people take steps to disable these types of things.

And someone mentioned "hackers".

The real deal hackers are government, and not just USA ones. NSA, NRO, and CIA. And don't forget the CIA's within the CIA, and NSA's within the NSA. Multiple networks of intelligence gathering projects hidden from their own management within those agencies with access to these new surveillance gimmicks.

Equals, [not good for citizens and freedom]

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed


At this point we might as well just call us what THEY think and treat us as. Livestock!

originally posted by: AnnihilateThis

originally posted by: dubiousatworst
a reply to: seeker1963

Also the year that the "black box" stuff started rolling out was in 2007, but was not mandatory until the model year 2011 (2010).

Thank you for that clarification, that black box generally determines vehicle speed, throttle position, airbag deployment times, whether the brakes were applied, if seatbelts were worn, engine speed, steering angles... Just general diagnostics really, right? Usually just around the time of a crash? Or is it constant and reset maybe after every few cycles of the engine?

It is a part of the Restraint Management System and has been in most cars since 2008.

It will also tell the yaw and pitch of the vehicle at the time of airbag deployment.

It sets at the time of airbag or seat-belt pretensioner deployment and is a hard code... it does not clear and to turn your airbag light off you have to replace your RSM module.

The sensors are essentially two magnets and a steel ball in most models.... if the ball moves from one magnet to the other then the impact sensor needs replaced.

The RSM module has the same sensor in it so it would need to be replaced as well.

Data about engine rpm, vehicle speed, throttle position, vehicle load and a lot of other things are stored in the PCM as a hard code at the time of the crash.

On-Star and other emergency online systems will transmit all that information in the event of a collision.

So no, it isn't new... but it's getting scary with the incorporation of facial recognition, seat weight classification and all the rest.

It's a likely scenario in the future when Earth's fuel reserves are running as low as possible that electric vehicles become more of a mandatory thing. Fortunately that's a long way to go and not in our life time.

My next car will be a 2016-2018 Corsa, that should last me for about 2 decades if I'm lucky!

I'm OK with a car seeing the road but anything that is watching me when I drive is going to make me feel very uncomfortable, in fact probably make me drive worse. Simple Black box is OK because it's a telemetric that encourage drivers to drive safely. I don't like being visually recorded while I drive, I'm still uncomfortable with CCTV above my head if I work or go to the shops.

a reply to: AnnihilateThis

trust me - you dont want to know what i has got upto in my vehicles over the years

some things are best left " unknown "

What will that monitor say when two teens are making out in the car? I suppose parents can go tap into the car computer to see what their kids did when they used it.

Johny: I just went to school and came straight home.

Dad: I checked the computer, there were four kids in there, then they seemed to be on top of each other in the back and front seat and the heart rate was through the roof

Johny: I must have forgot to lock the doors on the car again, those were probably homeless people sleeping in the car.

a reply to: Lumenari

If only it could help me adjust my carburetor or tell me why my 8-track is skipping ...

a reply to: AnnihilateThis
Older systems tend to have 6-8 "pages" of information and record around specific events the current state of what was going on. Newer systems collect and transmit a whole lot more information. For reference there were 15 specific data points required in the original system, and an additional 30 voluntary data points (with specific standards set) at the time.

Now it wouldn't surprise me if it keep a constant running record. With systems like On-Star that are nearly constantly sending bits of information, it is pretty much a given that the system is constantly recording and overwriting.

This has been going on since the 90,s. The feds can reverse the speaker on the on star and listen in on your convo. That was ODB2. ODB 3 and 4 have all your parameters down. In an accident....the black box becomes police evidence and is "oened" by the insurance company.

a reply to: AnnihilateThis

The good news is cheap Chinese crap can be easily broken.

I have some vintage motorcycles from the 40s and 50s. The 53 has a suicide shifter along side the gas tank. Ill just start riding those to work. Screw em!

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: AnnihilateThis

originally posted by: dubiousatworst
a reply to: seeker1963

Also the year that the "black box" stuff started rolling out was in 2007, but was not mandatory until the model year 2011 (2010).

Thank you for that clarification, that black box generally determines vehicle speed, throttle position, airbag deployment times, whether the brakes were applied, if seatbelts were worn, engine speed, steering angles... Just general diagnostics really, right? Usually just around the time of a crash? Or is it constant and reset maybe after every few cycles of the engine?

It is a part of the Restraint Management System and has been in most cars since 2008.

It will also tell the yaw and pitch of the vehicle at the time of airbag deployment.

It sets at the time of airbag or seat-belt pretensioner deployment and is a hard code... it does not clear and to turn your airbag light off you have to replace your RSM module.

The sensors are essentially two magnets and a steel ball in most models.... if the ball moves from one magnet to the other then the impact sensor needs replaced.

The RSM module has the same sensor in it so it would need to be replaced as well.

Data about engine rpm, vehicle speed, throttle position, vehicle load and a lot of other things are stored in the PCM as a hard code at the time of the crash.

On-Star and other emergency online systems will transmit all that information in the event of a collision.

So no, it isn't new... but it's getting scary with the incorporation of facial recognition, seat weight classification and all the rest.

Hi. I'm Bone.

I like picnics, animals, and long walks on the beach...

a reply to: dubiousatworst

And then there's the errors! I have a friend who did the black box thing, he and his wife. I want to say it was GEICO (not positive, it was one of the big ones). Anyway, one day he got a letter in the mail saying they were cancelling his insurance because he was going 105 mph in a 25 mph zone at 2am. This guy is like 69 and the slowest driver I know. He drives this old Jeep which is incapable of doing 100 mph, and the dude is in bed by 7:30pm every night.

So he's telling me about this one day, laughing about it. Says he called them and explained and they reinstated him. (funny, ha-ha, yuck, yuck). I'd remembered him telling me about this thing when he first got it, and him explaining how it worked on inertia, and was looking for rapid accelerations and stops or large lateral 'g' values.

I asked him one simple question which stopped his laughing immediately..."Even if it wasn't you....How did they know you were in a 25 mph zone?????"

All of a sudden it wasn't so funny anymore!!!

He has different insurance now.

a reply to: AnnihilateThis

that black box generally determines vehicle speed, throttle position, airbag deployment times, whether the brakes were applied, if seatbelts were worn, engine speed, steering angles... Just general diagnostics really, right? Usually just around the time of a crash? Or is it constant and reset maybe after every few cycles of the engine?

I honestly don't know everything that the black box does, but here's what it can do...

It can tell if you brake sharply, accelerate too fast, take a curve too fast, swerve, and even what direction you are going in (forward or reverse). It also has access to fuel usage, speed, number of riders in the vehicle, seat belt use, engine speed, and if GPS-equipped, location down to 30 feet. They normally contain data for a preset amount of time that the car is switched on.

Add in the insurance discount boxes and things get a little more intrusive: they can use GPS to determine not only position, but speed, and they have extra accelerometers built in to determine more precisely how 'erratic' you are driving. Semis have had these for quite some time; they are built in to the Qualcomm interface that allows drivers to communicate with dispatch. When I drove a truck for J.B. Hunt Dedicated, any time I had to stop quickly or rapidly change lanes to avoid a wreck or a critter, my Qualcomm would go off after a few minutes with a message: "We got an alert. Are you OK?" Then someone would call me on my cell from dispatch with the same question.

That actually wasn't too bad; the dispatchers knew me and they knew if I triggered an alert, there was a damn good reason. They were just CYA. But I also drove a van once for an inventory service that had a built-in GPS box. Not only could they tell which direction you went, right down to where you parked in the parking lots, but they also regulated speed... if GPS ever transmitted an average speed over 65 during a 2-minute average, you were suspended for speeding. I kid you not.

I actually had a truck run me off the road one day, angry that I wouldn't exceed 65 in a 70 mph zone. When I got back, I had to fill out an incident report they already had ready for me. Thankfully, everyone on the van at the time backed me up that I had actually avoided a wreck (and likely casualties), or I was about to be canned.

The black boxes do not transmit data; they just store it in case the police need to know after an accident what was happening. But the commercial units do transmit data, using cell towers. A dispatcher, for instance, can pull up a map on their screen and see exactly what road your truck is on, how fast you are traveling, what direction you are going, and more from their cubicle 2000 miles away. But cell towers fail sometimes. I have had dispatch call me all upset because I was scheduled to deliver within the hour and the Qualcomm showed me 300 miles out. I was sitting in the customer's parking lot at the time.

This is all dangerous technology, and it's coming, like it or not.

As to security against hacking, I'm not worried about the actual sensor readings. What concerns me is the information that has been processed from it. Hacking that is no different from hacking any web site. If a hacker were to break into your insurance company's site and retrieve the data, they could theoretically find out where you live, what kind of car you drive, where you work, where you go to church, where you usually shop, when you are usually gone, etc., etc., etc.

And the technology is improving...

TheRedneck