Free Will, Free Speech, and Us.

originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: zosimov

"wherein Americans are free to express and think for themselves"

But are they?

It's a good question! I can only speak for the multitude of voices, opinions, expressions I've met here and I do believe we have a good amount of room to think for ourselves and question and criticize. Though I also see what I believe to be some limitations and faults of our society.

I agree that network dude makes a very important point above.

Tpb could care less about your feels, or if you offended a race.

They want nobody fighting back.

Hence the anti-bullying push.

They are even pushing this onto children.

Here's a hugely popular kids song...

Notice the lyrics..."I won't even fight back"

a reply to: zosimov

I bet when it's posted, it will look shorter than what the amount of time taken would justify. A boss of mine once said, "You've got only two speeds; slow and slower."

Anti-Semitism

We think we know what that is. Holocaust and oh my god, if we say anything that sounds like a trope (stereotype) than we are the cause of the 1940s holocaust, even if we weren't even born yet.

To understand Jewish thinking one must first be a Jew, or at least be acculturated in Jewish culture, which I'm not. So there's that.

As an outsider then this is what I see: People as diverse as any other set of people, with diverse political views, ethical views, divided up into various sects, just like other people.

Since I'm not anti-people, I am not anti Jewish any more than anti-Irish including diaspora or anti-English including diaspora or anti-African, Asian or anything else, including Native American.

The thing is, I was born in a post Enlightenment era, in an Enlightened part of the World. At the same time though, I was raised as a Protestant Christian. Two World-views coexisting in my mind. Not too bad. Secular everyday living with a separate but co-temporal spiritual something. The day-to-day shaped my ethics as much as the teaching about some future judgement according to works.

Then History comes in. Protestant because back in the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church was the capital and central authority of the Western World. European nationalism and protest went together to break up the strangle hold. Nations became independent and didn't pay taxes to Rome (later Vatican, after the founding of Republic of Italy by Napoleon).

I wasn't just a Protestant. I was raised in a particular sect which had its beginnings in the mid 1800s, which figured it had the inside scoop about the last days. According to the "special insight into Revelation" the Roman Catholics and apostate Protestants would join together to form a One World centralized religion and government to which all people must give allegiance or else. So I'm predisposed to viewing centralized World Theocracy as a bad thing. Even Nationalist Theocracy seems bad to me. That gut and rational view will never go away for me I'm afraid.

Over the years, decades, [s]centuries[/s], that view of Catholic/Protestant merger for badness sake seems less likely.

What seems far more likely is a Centralized Jerusalem based Jewish elite, non-Jewish second class, two tiered Global The.cracy. Sounds like a trope that is officially labelled anti-Semitic, right?

Sure, but why is it that Western people can criticize Roman Catholic Vatican all day long unscathed by accusations of racism, bigotry, or genocidal tendencies, but Israel is off limits? I will leave that as a rhetorical question.

Back to History: While the Enlightenment was going on in Europe there was a Jewish Enlightenment as well, Haskalah. You can read about it in wikipedia Haskalah

Even as emancipation eased integration into wider society and assimilation prospered, the haskalah also resulted in the creation of secular Jewish culture, with an emphasis on Jewish history and Jewish identity, rather than religion. This resulted in the engagement of Jews in a variety of competing ways within the countries where they lived; these included the struggle for Jewish emancipation, involvement in new Jewish political movements, and later, in the face of continued persecutions in late nineteenth-century Europe, the development of a Jewish Nationalism. One source describes these effects as, "The emancipation of the Jews brought forth two opposed movements: the cultural assimilation, begun by Moses Mendelssohn, and Zionism, founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896."

Also see

Jewish Emancipation was the external (and internal) process in various nations in Europe of eliminating Jewish disabilities, e.g. Jewish quotas, to which Jewish people were then subject, and the recognition of Jews as entitled to equality and citizenship rights. It included efforts within the community to integrate into their societies as citizens. It occurred gradually between the late 18th century and the early 20th century. Jewish emancipation followed the Age of Enlightenment and the concurrent Jewish enlightenment. Various nations repealed or superseded previous discriminatory laws applied specifically against Jews where they resided. Before the emancipation, most Jews were isolated in residential areas from the rest of the society; emancipation was a major goal of European Jews of that time, who worked within their communities to achieve integration in the majority societies and broader education. Many became active politically and culturally within wider European civil society as Jews gained full citizenship. They emigrated to countries offering better social and economic opportunities, such as the Russian Empire and France. Some European Jews turned to Socialism, and others to Jewish zionism.

The two streams are what I focus on: The desire to be part of Western Society, to integrate, to be part of a Whole; and the fear of losing their distinct identity. These two streams are real to Jews. Since I am not a Jew, but rather a Barbarian from many Barbarian tribes, I don't understand the fear, but I know it must exist, else the one stream would have already become integrated to the extent of disappearing already, leaving only the Zionist stream.

Now let's look at Christianity: There are two streams here also. The heavenly and the Earthly.

I've read the New Testament many times. What is offered is the hope of eternal life. The ethics, or way of life if you will, is a way to live in the daily mundane World with this hope for the future present. Therefore, political engagement is not a big deal, or at least shouldn't be so big as to eclipse the hope. In fact there is an expectation that governments will be fickle and sometimes persecute.

Most, but not all sects of Christians, have this other part of the Bible, called the Old Testament. This part of the Bible deals almost exclusively with this World, and an expectation by the prophets of a Messianic Age in which the Jews are vindicated by their God by the destruction of their enemies, the establishment of Jerusalem as the Theocratic capital of the World, receiving tribute in the form of gold and clothing and livestock and whatnot.

Now the Zionist stream of Jewish thought and the political worldview of Christian Zionist have come together. So this is where we are now. Have Christians forgotten what is written in Paul's letter to the Galatians chapter 4, specifically vss 25 and 26? Evidently so, at least the Zionists have, or else they just don't care.

Any way. I just say no to Zionism. It's not my religion. I don't see it as a good thing. I wish I could talk very badly about it without being called anti-Semitic.

a reply to: zosimov

“Freedom’s untidy. And free people are free to commit mistakes, and to commit crimes.” - Donald Rumsfeld, former U.S. Secretary of Defense.


Ah ha, the whole point is right there-- free people are free to commit mistakes.

en.wikipedia.org...

Rumsfeld played a central role in the planning of the United States' response to the September 11 attacks, which included two wars, one in Afghanistan and one in Iraq. In addition to war strategy, Rumsfeld's tenure became highly controversial for the use of torture as well as the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal

No offense but most of the US suffers from Newspeak -they cant see past the ideology of "the other must be the enemy because we are at war with them, we wouldn't be at war with innocents? "





"How does the Patriot Act violate the First Amendment?"

The Patriot Act affected numerous constitutional provisions. Many would argue that the law's most tangible impact has been on the Fourth Amendment, which protects individuals from unreasonable searches and seizures. ... But several provisions of the Patriot Act also directly implicate First Amendment freedoms.Sep 8, 2011

a reply to: zosimov

I think our system, of having free will, free speech, and the freedom to respond to evil in kind or with kindness is brilliant

Whats brilliant about a system that act like a closed loop? The dissenting voices opposing war rarely win the day.


The foreigner is painted as "evil and wanting to change our way of life". "We will go in and liberate them and liberate their resources for our corporate masters"

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

No offense taken!
I would like to clarify that I do not support Donald Rumsfeld in any way. This is part of what I mean, I hope we reserve the right to agree or disagree with ideas rather than the person saying them.
Rumsfeld here was clearly arguing against allowing citizenry freedom, and I am all for it, including allowing people the right (freedom) to commit mistakes and even crimes (but know there will be consequences).

a reply to: TerryMcGuire
Watched The Jerk last night.

You're right.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: zosimov





The foreigner is painted as "evil and wanting to change our way of life". "We will go in and liberate them and liberate their resources for our corporate masters"

There will always be a multitude of voices speaking against this simplistic and faulty (and not limited to American) point of view.

a reply to: XAnarchistX

Agreed. When you really think about it the fact that its dictated that law is enshrined in the written word presupposes a subservient populace already buying in the notion that they are not "born free".

They are numbered at birth, taxed throughout their life, all there lives regulated by grants, permissions, licenses.


Roman citizenship - Wikipedia

Citizenship in ancient Rome (Latin: civitas) was a privileged political and legal status afforded to free individuals with respect to laws, property, and governance. A male Roman citizen enjoyed a wide range of privileges and protections defined in detail by the Roman state.

When the State gives you a privilege you are not free.

a reply to: pthena

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed and interesting response. I think you really did hit upon a relevent and interesting example of policing ideas and shutting down discussion before it even begins with one weighty accusation.

Thanks again pthena for a great read.

a reply to: zosimov

Which nations would those be that you're contrasting against, the South American banana republics who's leaders were assisted by the CIA in methods of suppression and torture in the 50/60's?

Extra Judicial renditions on behalf of the US? or


Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse

en.wikipedia.org...

Central Intelligence Agency committed a series of human rights violations against detainees in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.[1] These violations included physical and sexual abuse, torture, rape, sodomy, and murder.[2][3][4][5] The abuses came to widespread public attention with the publication of photographs of the abuse by CBS News in April 2004. The incidents received widespread condemnation both within the United States and abroad, although the soldiers received support from some conservative media within the United States.[6][7]


The administration of George W. Bush asserted that these were isolated incidents, not indicative of general U.S. policy.[8][9] This was disputed by humanitarian organizations such as the Red Cross, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch. These organizations stated that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were not isolated incidents, but were part of a wider pattern of torture and brutal treatment at American overseas detention centers, including those in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay.[9] Several scholars stated that the abuses constituted state-sanctioned crimes

or

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

A broad look at humanity does show plenty of imperialistic behavior from a multitude of nations. Or enslavement, theft of resource, etc. It's all there.

Lots of positive stuff too if you want to look there.

a reply to: pthena

Just to correct the status of Italy

later Vatican, after the founding of Republic of Italy by Napoleon).

Kingdom of Italy

The Kingdom of Italy was a kingdom in Northern Italy in personal union with France under Napoleon I. It was fully influenced by revolutionary France and ended with his defeat and fall. Its governance was conducted by Napoleon and his step-son and viceroy Eugène de Beauharnais. Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org...

History of the Italian Republic - Italy became a republic after a referendum[102] held on 2 June 1946, a day

a reply to: zosimov

I'm glad no offense taken - I like reading your thinking. Until however the system changes - not much will change. When you talk of people thinking for themselves, most people are 1 pay check away from bankruptcy/debt. They're too busy holding done jobs to protest or in fear of retribution.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: zosimov
Until however the system changes - not much will change. When you talk of people thinking for themselves, most people are 1 pay check away from bankruptcy/debt. They're too busy holding done jobs to protest or in fear of retribution.

There is a lot of truth in this...
I hope that the system could change from the outside in, but am not convinced this is so.

a reply to: zosimov

But what choices are left for us? Do we get to control how are taxes are spent? - on bettering the "commonwealth of the people". So much of our money goes to non healthy endeavours like paying down debt as the right to print our own money was taken away from the Government and given to you know who.....

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

No, and what a frustration that is (having to pay into a system without any oversight or say as to how that money is spent).

I'm beginning to think we are free to bypass the "system" and reach out to each other on an individual basis and act on our own similar to how Lebron James opened his own school for kids in his hometown. To learn and teach skills like gardening, plumbing, writing (whatever) with this unprecedented access to information. Any other ideas?

ETA: I regret my usage of the word system in the OP. It's a loaded word.

a reply to: zosimov

Lots of positive stuff too if you want to look there.

Sure, but its getting worse before it'll get better.

Censoring and defining the narrative by the conglomerates who hold the helm of the so called "free press"; its more Orwellian than Orwell.

What constitutes a fair wage for a days work? How much should health care cost?

The recent yellow vest protests in France did not happen in a vacuum. The black shirt Police were recklessly beating protesters who had had enough. Reminded me of Gestapo that you see in WW2 movies.

If a financial crash happens in our generation - it'll be 100 times worse than the 2008 crash. What then "hunger games"?

a reply to: zosimov

Yeah bartering but the State will come in and take a cut. We see how farmers have to sell their milk pasteurized or risk sanctions.

Weren't they talking of taxing water runoff in New York - rainfall on your land does not belong to you....hahahaha

newyork.cbslocal.com...

Rain Tax’ Likely To Become Reality In New Jersey Idea Is To Protect Garden State's Streams, Rivers And Bays From Potentially Toxic Storm Runoff From Salt And Lawn Fertilizers

a reply to: zosimov

To learn and teach skills like gardening, plumbing, writing (whatever) with this unprecedented access to information. Any other ideas?

I have archived many books that I never gave a 2nd thought to before the information age. We have passed on self sufficiency to our sons - they watched us grow things from a young age.

Any other ideas? - backup backup and backup your data. Also a hard printout of essentials

LOL