Alabama judge allows lawsuit that names aborted fetus as co-plaintiff.

a reply to: riiver

the supreme court already has rules that you can't require the father's consent..

a reply to: dawnstar

I'm not talking about requiring the father's consent. I'm talking about the fact that men who absolutely did NOT want the child (who, if they were women, would have the option to abort) are still held liable for child support. Women can say, "Nope, don't want it, not having it" and go on with their lives unhindered. Men can say, "Nope, don't want it, not doing it" and they're still financially liable for the next 18 (or even 21, if the kid goes to college) years.

a reply to: riiver

not sure if it still works the same but I've known quite a few women who would have preferred to keep the dad out of the picture or to just skip the court system and work with the dad over the support. but, if they end up having to ask for gov't assistance, then the gov't has a vested interest in weather or not dad is paying his "fair share" of the child support since the alternative is that the taxpayer ends up paying more. so, don't really know what to tell ya, outside of good luck on that one!!

In El Salvador abortion is illegal there are also women in prison for having a miscarriage. Some had a miscarriage because their spouse beat them and they were prosecuted because by their standard the women must have purposely angered their spouse.

I don't know what Alabama is aiming for, but they are on a slippery slope.

a reply to: dawnstar

I am so sorry that you do not know the difference between a miscarriage and an attempted self abortion!!

I don't know who the HELL you think you are, but DO OT GO THERE!!!

Ever!

Conversation is over between us.

Good day, madam, and leave me be!

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

ya know, in one of the carolinas, there are more women who had the unfortunate experience of miscarrying sitting in jails from their fetal protection laws there are men...

this was what I posted... to which you replied:

I consider an attempt at abortion a sign of mental distress. That is not the same as mental illness, mind you. No person in such a state should be incarcerated for being in that state of mind, certainly not for anything more than their own protection. They should be helped to overcome their distress.

so, how am I supposed to take your reply, if not you trying to imply that I am talking about women who are intentionally trying to abort their pregnancies on their own? which I further cleared up by describing some of the cases that I know about where, I assure you, the women were not attempting to abort!!! They were thrown in jail because they miscarried!!
here, in the US!
get all offended if you want, I really don't care, don't really care if you respond to me or not either.
and by the way, the women who fell down the stairs, well, she had just gotten off the phone with the baby's daddy who called her just to argue with here, probably raised her blood pressure up a tad bit..
which well, could have cause her dizzy spell..
can't say for sure this is what happened, but it's more believable than the lady just up and deciding she didn't want to be pregnant anymore and throwing herself down a flight of stairs!!!

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: dawnstar

I read this story yesterday, and I just couldn't believe it.

I also learned that Alabama wants to basically make abortions completely illegal no matter what.

Honestly, if this man really wanted to have a child, maybe he should have saved his teenaged sex cravings for someone he actually felt a connection with and was married to. Obviously his relationship with this girl at the time was trivial if she wasn't even going to fathom having a baby at 16! He was 19 at the time, he's an adult, he should mark this up as a reality of life, you can't control other peoples lives the way you want because you can't wrap your junk or pull out, she's not a walking incubator to just pop out children. Selfish prick.

What an incredibly ignorant statement.

Congrats on writing possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read on ATS.

That baby is his just as much as the mother's.

We WILL rectify this insanity in our laws and you will not stop it.

a reply to: dawnstar

get all offended if you want, I really don't care, don't really care if you respond to me or not either.

The day you hold your daughter while she dies due to a miscarriage, you get back to me on being offended... until then, I don't care about those women. They're probably just as hateful, spiteful, malicious, and sadistic as you are.

You can count yourself lucky that you are sitting behind a screen, but know this: had you said that to my face, I would have likely removed your jaw from your face. I've never in my life hit a woman, but I don't think I could have stopped myself. As it is, I can barely type. This is why I stay out of most of the abortion debates; if it wasn't for the Alabama reference, I wouldn't be in this one.

But know this, and know it well: you live in a society and you will do as that society says whether you like it or not. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, you will comply with the law or you will go to jail. You just made an enemy out of someone who supported abortion, not because i like them, but because i had sympathy for women. If they're as vicious as you are, they do not need nor can they have my sympathy. So suck it up. Men exist and we ain't going anywhere and we get to say what laws they are. Hate us all you want; you'll just make us hate you too.

TheRedneck

ETA: I started to close this tab. No. I'm going to stay in it, just to point out your man-hating vile. Besides, I had a decent conversation going with other members until your putrid venom got splashed all over the place. So come on, man-hater. Here's a man. Let's see what you got!

a reply to: TheRedneck

my apologies, if I knew you had had that experience, I probably would have chosen my words more carefully...
but you know what would have probably made that experience a tad bit worse? having a bunch of cops show up a day or two later to "investigate" and determine weather your daughter died while in the process of murdering her child! which, thanks to those nice laws giving a fetus the same legal standing as everyone else is now possible since it would mean that the death of that fetus would have to be investigated probably. but, continue on... yep, I'm just a man hating old hag!! whatever....

and, by the way...
I'm a 60+ year old widow, who by the way is also more than content to live out her remaining years celibate...
if anyone should care less what kind of laws are written and brought forth, it is me!! what the heck, ain't gonna affect me on iota, especially if my sons remain single which they probably will considering how things look at the present time. ain't no skin off my back at all!!

a reply to: dawnstar

I have never heard of a single case where a miscarriage was then investigated by the police unless there was evidence of a botched abortion. I've lived in Alabama all my life (and I'm almost as old as you are). Care to back that up with a link? I'm certainly not going to take your word for it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Even New York is no stranger to these types of prosecutions. In 2008, a car driven by a 28-year-old woman named Jennifer Jorgensen crossed the double-yellow line of Whiskey Road in Ridge, on Long Island. The head-on collision that ensued cut three lives short. The driver of the car Ms. Jorgensen hit, Robert Kelly, 75, died at the scene; his wife, Mary Kelly, 70, died of her injuries three weeks later. The infant that Ms. Jorgensen, eight months pregnant, delivered via emergency cesarean section shortly after the accident died five days later.

In 2012, a Suffolk County jury acquitted Ms. Jorgensen of two counts of second-degree manslaughter in the deaths of the Kellys, one count of operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of drugs and alcohol, and one count of aggravated vehicular homicide.

The jury found Ms. Jorgensen guilty of a single manslaughter charge, holding that she recklessly caused the death of her daughter because she had not been wearing a seatbelt. She was sentenced to up to nine years in prison.

www.nytimes.com...

Life can't get much worse for Christine Taylor. Last month, after an upsetting phone conversation with her estranged husband, Ms. Taylor became light-headed and fell down a flight of stairs in her home. Paramedics rushed to the scene and ultimately declared her healthy. However, since she was pregnant with her third child at the time, Taylor thought it would be best to be seen at the local ER to make sure her fetus was unharmed.

That's when things got really bad and really crazy. Alone, distraught, and frightened, Taylor confided in the nurse treating her that she hadn't always been sure she'd wanted this baby, now that she was single and unemployed. She'd considered both adoption and abortion before ultimately deciding to keep the child. The nurse then summoned a doctor, who questioned her further about her thoughts on ending the pregnancy. Next thing Taylor knew, she was being arrested for attempted feticide. Apparently the nurse and doctor thought that Taylor threw herself down the stairs on purpose.

According to Iowa state law, attempted feticide is an trying "to intentionally terminate a human pregnancy, with the knowledge and voluntary consent of the pregnant person, after the end of the second trimester of the pregnancy." At least 37 states have similar laws. Taylor spent two days in jail before being released. That's right, a pregnant woman was jailed for admitting to thinking about an abortion at some point early in her pregnancy and then having the audacity to fall down some stairs a couple of months later. Please tell me you find this as horrifying as I do.

www.thestranger.com...

my bad, I thought she had miscarried, but according to this article she didn't.. but still spent time in jail for falling down the stairs while pregnant!! then again, maybe there was another case somewhere else where the lady did miscarry...

In a recent op-ed for the New York Times, Lynn M. Paltrow and Jeanne Flavin of the National Advocates for Pregnant Women offer up some of the most egregious cases of the criminalization of pregnant women. "Since 2005, we have identified an additional 380 cases, with more arrests occurring every week,” they write. “This significant increase coincides with what the Guttmacher Institute describes as a 'seismic shift' in the number of states with laws hostile to abortion rights.”

www.alternet.org...

a reply to: dawnstar

First link: In Alabama, if you cause the death of a child in the womb, that is considered no different than if the child were post-natal.

From Alabama Code Title 13A. Criminal Code § 13A-6-1:

(a) As used in Article 1 and Article 2, the following terms shall have the meanings ascribed to them by this section:

(1) CRIMINAL HOMICIDE.  Murder, manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.

(2) HOMICIDE.  A person commits criminal homicide if he intentionally, knowingly, recklessly or with criminal negligence causes the death of another person.

(3) PERSON.  The term, when referring to the victim of a criminal homicide or assault, means a human being, including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability.

Paragraphs (b) through (e) provide exceptions for medications and medical procedures performed in good faith, victims of sexual assault or domestic violence, the woman who is pregnant herself, and abortion procedures. It's not an uncommon legal principle, as some version is on the books in 39 states (reference).

In short, Ms. Jorgensen could not have been charged in Alabama. Perhaps you should take that up with someone from New York. You know, that oh, so enlightened state?

It does show, however, that the life of an unborn child is considered legally a human life in 39 states. If it is a human life protected in any way under the law, why can that human life not be a plaintiff in a court case?

Second link: Yes, your bad... but you at least got to insult someone who actually cares about human life, so maybe it's a wash.

I have a friend whose child fell against a portable heater when she was, I think, 2 or 3 years old. They did what any parents would do: they rushed her immediately to a hospital. Their daughter was treated, then they found themselves in a small room with a police detective asking them how often their child burned herself, why she was near the heater, why they weren't watching her... they were insinuating child abuse and trying to find a pattern. It was a nightmare for them. So that has nothing to do with abortion, but rather to do with people maliciously trying to be guardians of everyone around them whether that person wants/needs a guardian or not.

Third link: I disagree with every example given, all 7 of them. The problem is, again, extreme views - like taking joy in antagonizing someone over a terrible memory. So? There are also myriad cases of parents being arrested for insignificant assumptions by others (I outlined one personal experience above). I have actually had DHR come to my house a couple times. My response was "you touch my kids and I will bury your ass on this mountain." That stopped any future visits. I still don't know who asked them to come see us.

Incidentally, I raised two children, a boy and a girl, who are both happily married to good people, financially stable, and both work in upper levels of their chosen fields. Their grandfather told me and their mother several times during her pregnancy that we couldn't afford kids, the world was too messed up, and we needed to have an abortion. I tried to forgive him for that later, but it was hard. I think I succeeded? In any case, I think I was a good parent, and so do my kids from their own statements. So were my friends good parents. And both if us were hassled by the DHS and police.

So your link proves nothing that wasn't already known. It just provides a distraction from the real issues.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

It's been my experience that dhs seems to be more apt to harass parent who have the money to pay the child support once the child is placed on foster care than parents that have no money. But I didn't are where you mentioned anyone being arrested. Did I miss it?

a reply to: dawnstar

Several people are arrested here for DHS violations every year. I wasn't (I assume because I was dead serious when I made the statement) and my friend wasn't (although he was threatened with arrest during the 'interview'), but we were lucky. And that's in Alabama, where common thought is against removing children from any but the most heinous situations. I wonder how many people are arrested for domestic child abuse over normal, everyday things?

That data is hard to find, but I did find this article from the Atlantic from 2014:

One statistic that stood out in the report: since 2008, the number of referrals to child protective service agencies (hereafter CPS) has increased by 8.3 percent, even as overall rates of actual child victimization declined by 3.3 percent during the same period. There is no system that can totally avoid putting parents who don't deserve it through investigations, despite the fact that even the best moms and dads would regard the ordeal as nightmarish. Over time, however, the number of undeserving parents so burdened seems to be increasing–and the number is large (note that "screened out" referrals are the ones deemed not even worth investigating):

That article reinforces my statement that the cases you so vehemently protest are most certainly not limited to abortion cases, but are a part of an overall societal evolution to attack parents (including prospective parents) over perceived instead of real abuses.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

you said you weren't aware of any cases where miscarriages were investigate and wanted me to back it up..
I provided you with a few links, could find more but since you so easily discounted the ones I provided, it's not worth my time.

a reply to: dawnstar

I provided you with a few links, could find more but since you so easily discounted the ones I provided, it's not worth my time.

So you come on here full of spit and vinegar, insulting everyone you can, and as soon as you get confronted with reality, you run. Right. Got it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Tempter

I wonder how many other women hes had sexual intercourse with since they broke up. Are they his property too?

a reply to: TheRedneck

Seems like you are doing far more insulting than me in our exchange. I provided the information. Anyone who desires to look further into it has Google at their disposal and I know there is more examples of women ending up in jail after miscarrying through no fault of their own. So ya I am done with this avenue of the discussion.

What a sad sad direction this thread has gone

I've really struggled with my feelings about abortion... and I do understand that personally it's almost impossible to separate my emotions from my thoughts because it is emotional for me. I was told I'd never be able to carry a child to term, and miscarried several times. I was even told that my son would miscarry, so I didn't even tell anyone (except hubby) I was pregnant until I had to start wearing maternity clothes.

So I look to natural law, the foundation of life and all creation, and our Constitution. As written in the Declaration of Independence, our rights are "self-evident"; it is our absolute inalienable natural right to do what what we can of ourselves and by ourselves and/or with other consenting adults. And the simple truth is that nature and Nature's God does not compel/impel any woman to be a mother, and that nature and Nature's God provides the means for a woman to terminate a pregnancy of herself and by herself. Therefore, it is her absolute inalienable natural right to do so. Risky? Yup. But do-able. So any crime or sin committed is against nature and Nature's God. Not man and not men.

Likewise, in regards to conception, pregnancy, and fatherhood, men have no natural rights. There is absolutely nothing men can do of themselves and by themselves to have a child. Fatherhood is a sacred gift -- both from Nature's God AND from the woman who agrees to bear his children. But too many men presume it is their right, rather than a privilege, subjugating women to their will, and otherwise abusing women's free will and our persons. And quite likely why nature created us thus, giving women some means of self-protection from men who would use and abuse her otherwise. Such as the points the OP has made regarding prosecuting women for accidents resulting in miscarriage. Or those who would grant "rights" to a rapist whose violence and brutality results in pregnancy.

If a man wants to preserve his real or perceived rights to the fruits of his loins, then he needs to take appropriate steps BEFORE engaging in the deed. Marry the woman, and bring your children into a stable and loving home and family. Or at least make sure the woman has the same values you have and would respect and honor you as a father in the event of pregnancy BEFORE you start dipping your pen in the well.

And let's stop making pregnancy and motherhood so damn hard!!! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If we don't want women aborting their babies, then let's make sure there is no reason for them to want to abort their babies. Let's not make it so damn difficult to be a mother!

I can already hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth. So be it. It is what it is.

a reply to: dawnstar

I'm not the one who started the insults off. That was you. You might want to get off that high horse before you fall off... you could hurt yourself from that height.

Now either rebut what I said, agree with what I said, or run away.

TheRedneck