FDA approves ketamine-like nasal spray for depression

I mean..

I've actually done the real stuff a couple of times in my early 20's during my rave days and while you can't compare a modest dose of ketamine powder cooked from liquid that was taken from a veterinary clinic, my experience is that it wouldn't do much for depression.

You go into a dissociative "zoom in" state where you're very out of it, will have difficulty walking around or using any motor skills for about 30 minutes. Time can seem to stop, then it picks back up as the drug, medicine, whatever is wearing off and you get what's referred to as a k-hole. Most of the visual signals you had that you seemingly didn't pick up or process during the heavier intoxicated period of time flash by quickly like hitting fast forward on a video.

Thus needing to administer it once a week in a clinic.

I remember doing Ketamine once and I visualized slowly looking into the inner workings of a molecule/atom.
I don't recall it having an anti-depressant effect on me, just an interesting experience.
Dissociatives aren't a cure for depression, no drug is.

This is not a cousin of ketamine but the enantiomer; a twin brother who happens to be left handed. Enantiomer means that it is ketamine but that the optical center is a mirror image. The geometry of a molecule is important because of active sites it can effect.
This is because active molecules have to fit in receptor sites and mirror images often don't have an effect because they won't fit. Think of the difference between right hand threads and left hand threads.

Usually, when making a drug, both enantiomers are formed. It is easier to double the dose of the mixture than to separate the effective molecule from the ineffective one.

originally posted by: pteridine
This is not a cousin of ketamine but the enantiomer; a twin brother who happens to be left handed. Enantiomer means that it is ketamine but that the optical center is a mirror image. The geometry of a molecule is important because of active sites it can effect.
This is because active molecules have to fit in receptor sites and mirror images often don't have an effect because they won't fit. Think of the difference between right hand threads and left hand threads.

Usually, when making a drug, both enantiomers are formed. It is easier to double the dose of the mixture than to separate the effective molecule from the ineffective one.

Dextromethorphan, the ingredient in most over the counter cough syrups and tablets to suppress your respiratory system, is a mirror image of the morphine molecule so it's reversed as you explained. Still suppresses the respiratory system but instead of giving you a warm feeling and pain relief, it gives you a disassociated 'out of it' effect that some people like and take large doses of to hallucinate.

I didn't know it was ketamine reversed, that means it's an entirely different chemical with different methods of action, receptors it binds to. That's kinda scary, I don't think I'd volunteer for that treatment.

Why are they making it so easy to snort it if they're gonna control it so tightly?

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
Why are they making it so easy to snort it if they're gonna control it so tightly?

Faster delivery of the drug.

It's for "treatment-resistant" depression, which means it's going to be difficult to get (almost nobody will prescribe it) and probably expensive. It's for use when someone is having a psychiatric crisis and they are suicidal (which is why they want the drug to get into the system very quickly.)

I don't know if you've dealt with someone who's depressed and suicidal, but it can be REALLY hard to keep them from harming themselves. They used to use strait jackets and padded rooms for these cases which are pretty inhumane.

Here's the initial news announcement (which includes information on the trials)

Jannsen Research's Clinical Trials information is here (this is how they did the experiment and what other treatments they were comparing it to.

a reply to: markovian

I done it once and found myself appreciating Salvore Dali, with a hot blonde....

a reply to: St0rD

This really sounds like a terrible idea. I've never tried K. because I don't want to hallucinate.

...And I don't think it's a good thing for people to be hallucinating and tripping out of their minds...

I do think MJ should be used for depression though. It won't make you hallucinate lol, and it will make you feel good.

As a 35 year depression survivor, I've been watching the ketamine treatments since they appeared on the radar a few years back. Initial studies are promising, showing that the majority of patients undergoing treatment with ketamine experienced an almost immediate relief from depression symptoms. At that point, the ketamine was introduced in a doctor's office, I can't remember if by injection or IV.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for the studies to show how long the relief of symptoms last and how often the treatment needs to be administered for full relief. The study looked at patients that had been treatment resistant. At least two or three medications that don't work before trying this. Recently I wrote down my drug history and realized I've been on at least 8 different medications that either didn't work, or the effectiveness wore off after 2 years or so. Right now, the 8th + finally finding a therapist that works with CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) seems to be working well.

a reply to: St0rD

A Gun with One Bullet would be More Humane .

By the way is the ketamine experience similar to that of salvia?

Just asking because years & years ago, I tried salvia and it was terrible, lol.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
Why are they making it so easy to snort it if they're gonna control it so tightly?

Faster delivery of the drug.

It's for "treatment-resistant" depression, which means it's going to be difficult to get (almost nobody will prescribe it) and probably expensive. It's for use when someone is having a psychiatric crisis and they are suicidal (which is why they want the drug to get into the system very quickly.)

Frankly, if someone wants to off themselves, it's probably a bad idea to try to "save" them. Especially with drugs. I mean, that's a frying pan into the fire situation if I've ever heard of one. They're trying to make evolution work the way it's supposed to and we're fighting them?

originally posted by: peacefulpete
a reply to: St0rD

This really sounds like a terrible idea. I've never tried K. because I don't want to hallucinate.

...And I don't think it's a good thing for people to be hallucinating and tripping out of their minds...

I do think MJ should be used for depression though. It won't make you hallucinate lol, and it will make you feel good.

It's not ketamine. It's a cousin. And it's for severe suicidal depression.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
Why are they making it so easy to snort it if they're gonna control it so tightly?

Faster delivery of the drug.

It's for "treatment-resistant" depression, which means it's going to be difficult to get (almost nobody will prescribe it) and probably expensive. It's for use when someone is having a psychiatric crisis and they are suicidal (which is why they want the drug to get into the system very quickly.)

Frankly, if someone wants to off themselves, it's probably a bad idea to try to "save" them. Especially with drugs. I mean, that's a frying pan into the fire situation if I've ever heard of one. They're trying to make evolution work the way it's supposed to and we're fighting them?

You might be comfortable burying your child or your spouse who committed suicide. You might not have any emotional problems with your spouse shooting themselves in front of you (as my husband's cousin did to his wife.) I'm not that kind of person.

My daughter has severe clinical depression. She's come close to suicide several times. My husband attempted suicide before I met him. They are both kind, beautiful, valuable people with a crippling mental disability. Both work hard at their jobs and give value to their employers and customers.

You may not have tried to help a loved one through one of these phases and you might not have lost a person close to you to suicide. Most people who have dealt with people who have this kind of desperate depression would prefer to have their loved one live.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: peacefulpete
a reply to: St0rD

This really sounds like a terrible idea. I've never tried K. because I don't want to hallucinate.

...And I don't think it's a good thing for people to be hallucinating and tripping out of their minds...

I do think MJ should be used for depression though. It won't make you hallucinate lol, and it will make you feel good.

It's not ketamine. It's a cousin. And it's for severe suicidal depression.

Well I said I’m not familiar with k. So obviously I don’t know exactly what it’s like.

It’s why I said that I tried salvia yrs ago and it was the absolute worst drug experience I’ve ever had. I spent a few weeks messing with salvia so I think I got an accurate understanding of it. And it’s awful lol.

Salvia has no emotional “high” in any way. There’s no positive feeling from it. Salvia simply scrambled up ur consciousness and confuses the hell out of the user (if enough is ingested to get a strong effect).

I wanted to understand salvia so I tried to get a strong effect, and I did. I’d smoke it and hold my breath to make it absorb.

The terrible effects would start with vision “blanking out” as if clouds of color would cover my sight. Sweat would start pouring down my face and body.

My mind would get so confused, with my vision blanked out, that I would literally forget what posture my body was in...! There was some dizziness too, so... with my mind retarded from the salvia, and my eyes blinded, and dizzy, I couldn’t even feel my body properly, to determine my body’s posture... so THEN I’d start to panic that I might be standing up, and if so, then I might get dizzy and fall over and get hurt...

So a large part of the experience was worrying about falling over, and blindly, numbly, dizzily trying to figure out if I was standing up or sitting down... Not fun at all.

WORST of all was that my mind would literally start to hear voices, in the midst of all that. It seemed like many voices all talking at once, in my mind.

The ONLY good thing about salvia is that it’s effectw only last like one minute or two, so it’s over fast.

ANYWAY that’s my experience with salvia and I’d NEVER recommend it to anyone...

It’s also the most trippy I’ve ever gotten and it was terrible lol. I’d never want to feel it again, let alone actually tripping for real, I’ll never do it.

So that’s where I was coming from. Salvia is absolutely terrible and if k. is anything similar then it’s terrible lol.

Now can anyone describe / compare my experience to that of k?

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
Why are they making it so easy to snort it if they're gonna control it so tightly?

Faster delivery of the drug.

It's for "treatment-resistant" depression, which means it's going to be difficult to get (almost nobody will prescribe it) and probably expensive. It's for use when someone is having a psychiatric crisis and they are suicidal (which is why they want the drug to get into the system very quickly.)

Frankly, if someone wants to off themselves, it's probably a bad idea to try to "save" them. Especially with drugs. I mean, that's a frying pan into the fire situation if I've ever heard of one. They're trying to make evolution work the way it's supposed to and we're fighting them?

You might be comfortable burying your child or your spouse who committed suicide. You might not have any emotional problems with your spouse shooting themselves in front of you (as my husband's cousin did to his wife.) I'm not that kind of person.

My daughter has severe clinical depression. She's come close to suicide several times. My husband attempted suicide before I met him. They are both kind, beautiful, valuable people with a crippling mental disability. Both work hard at their jobs and give value to their employers and customers.

You may not have tried to help a loved one through one of these phases and you might not have lost a person close to you to suicide. Most people who have dealt with people who have this kind of desperate depression would prefer to have their loved one live.

I’m sorry to hear about your painful experiences.

Also ur post is extremely dark, in suggesting ppl don’t care about their loved ones... please lighten up a bit, lol. Most people obviously do love and care about their family and friends.

The heart of the conversation isn’t who cares about their fam or not... the heart of the convo is whether or not ketamine can possibly be helpful to those who are in the most need.

I’ve never wanted to trip, and the closest I’ve gotten to tripping, was absolutely terrible.

If k causes confusion and tripping then how can it possibly be helpful to desperate people? Wouldn’t it just be creating more confusion for them?

originally posted by: Byrd

You might be comfortable burying your child or your spouse who committed suicide.

I don't have a spouse or a child so I would have a pretty hard time being comfortable with something I won't have to do. As for anyone else I may know or have ever known or be/been close to, I might not enjoy losing them but I would totally understand and would probably feel that they did what they thought was best for them. I don't have to live inside their head for 80 years so my wishes are for my own selfish emotional needs.

You might not have any emotional problems with your spouse shooting themselves in front of you (as my husband's cousin did to his wife.) I'm not that kind of person.

I am human and humans have emotions (that often override their rationality). What I have a problem with is that someone would even have to resort to such a grim exit. Suicide happens. It's always happened. It's always going to happen. Knowing that, we have the knowledge and the technology to help suicidal people end their lives peacefully and leaving their loved ones with a slightly more pleasant memory than seeing the walls painted with their brains. That's what I have a problem with. That we don't respect their wishes and force them to go to such extremes to take the path they have chosen for themselves.

My daughter has severe clinical depression.

I'm sorry but it is what it is. Did you consider that your daughter might end up with severe clinical depression before you chose to have a daughter? What if she was a paraplegic? Would you have been able to predict that? Could you deal with it if she was?

She doesn't have anything. Her mind can't cope with the world it finds itself in. The human mind was not meant to live the way we do. There is nothing wrong with people who can't handle it any more than there is anything wrong with a fish that can't live in a tiny bowl (despite the fact that it appears to have everything it needs). This reality is as toxic for many people as the toxins that build up in a tiny volume of water that a fish is trying to survive in.

She's come close to suicide several times. My husband attempted suicide before I met him.

Again, that seems like that should have been a sign that his offspring might be similarly troubled. Did you not consider that? Look. I realize this is harsh but it's reality. I'm actually not trying to be mean or unsympathetic. I think that if we want to solve problems we're not going to solve them with quick fixes that you buy in a bottle. We have to acknowledge and confront the root of it all. You shouldn't have to snort some kind of concoction to live.

You may not have tried to help a loved one through one of these phases and you might not have lost a person close to you to suicide. Most people who have dealt with people who have this kind of desperate depression would prefer to have their loved one live.

But again. They don't have to live inside their heads, do they? Food for thought.

originally posted by: peacefulpete
I’m sorry to hear about your painful experiences.

Also ur post is extremely dark, in suggesting ppl don’t care about their loved ones... please lighten up a bit, lol. Most people obviously do love and care about their family and friends.

I was trying to point out something I've learned, which is that depression isn't the same thing for those who are chronically depressed (have the chemical imbalance) as it is for the rest of us.

The heart of the conversation isn’t who cares about their fam or not... the heart of the convo is whether or not ketamine can possibly be helpful to those who are in the most need.

Yes. I agree. I'm all for that nasal spray!

If k causes confusion and tripping then how can it possibly be helpful to desperate people? Wouldn’t it just be creating more confusion for them?

They're not administering enough to make someone trip (that would be very dangerous to someone who was depressed.) Abusers are taking far more than any clinical recommended dose.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

But again. They don't have to live inside their heads, do they? Food for thought.

No offense intended here, but you seem to not have a good handle on clinical depression. Frankly, I didn't have a good handle on it either and it took a lot of educating by people who have it to make me realize that what they experience is FAR different than what I (as a normal person) experience when I'm depressed.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

There is something really wrong with you.