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originally posted by: ArMaP
Being on the Alien ship with Betty would have been the only way of seeing the Alien map, any other thing, like what you call a "progressed reconstruction" is just wishful thinking from your part.
No, what you have is what you think is the same view progressed 30 years. As you do not have access to the original Alien map you cannot honestly say that you do have a progressed version of it.
originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
I haven't seen him post anything in an "unscientific" manner. Quite the opposite.
He's not using all of the available data. How scientific is that? He's choosing to ignore the story calling it irrelevant and focusing just on the map. He does this because the Hill tale is full of inconsistencies and ridiculous claims. Claims that put into question the entire event. Once you question the event, the map too comes into question. He's not being honest to the story. As it's already been said, he's cherry picking.
originally posted by: james1947
Wow, I wasn't aware that Betty's Extraterrestrials were from a different Galaxy!!! I mean, how else could they have different stars than we see in our sky.
Seriously, man, just how are the stars that Betty saw any different than the ones we look at every night??!!!?
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
I explained numerous things in detail in James posts which are not scientific, like my latest objection that all the lines of evidence are not being considered by James, just a tunnel vision focus on some number from a computer algorithm he can't even defend because he claims the documentation for the algorithm is wrong when it says it's comparing pixels.
Im stating specific scientific objections, not what I believe.
But today the Fish Map is no longer viable whatsoever. In her research beginning in 1966, Fish made the wise choice to use the Gliese Catalogue of Nearby Stars, which was then the most accurate available. But that was over forty years ago, and science never stands still. Astronomical researcher Brett Holman recently checked out what the Fish Map would look like if it were built using the most accurate astronomical data available today. His answer is in his article in the British publication Fortean Times (#242, November 2008): "Goodbye, Zeta Reticuli" (the supposed home solar system of the UFOnauts). Holman writes, “In the early 1990s the Hipparcos satellite measured the positions of nearly 120,000 stars 10 times more accurately than ever before – including all of those that appear in the Fish interpretation. The results of this work, and much else besides, is available online now, and can be easily queried using websites such as SIMBAD at the Strasbourg Astronomical Observatory.”
Fish excluded all variable stars and close binaries to include only supposedly habitable solar systems – but the new data reveals two of her stars as suspected variables, and two more as close binaries. So there go four of her 15 stars. And two more are much further away than earlier believed, removing them completely from the volume of space in question. Six stars of that supposedly exact-matching pattern, definitely gone, excluded by the very criteria that once included them using the forty-year-old data. Goodbye, Zeta Reticuli.
Alas, it is probably more complicated than that. Based on obsolete data, Marjorie Fish’s interpretation of Betty Hill’s map has been shown to be wrong. In the early 1990s the European Hipparcos (“High precision parallax collecting satellite) mission measured the distances to more than a hundred thousand stars around the Sun more accurately than ever before. Some turned out to be much further away than previously thought. Other research has looked at stars included in Fish’s research. Two, 54 and 107 Piscium, have been revealed to be variable stars, while Gliese 67 and Tau 1 Eridani are in fact close binaries. Then some stars discounted by Fish have turned out to be potential abodes for life after all, for example Epsilon Eridani is not after all a binary star. Using Fish’s own assumptions and more up to date data, six of the fifteen stars chosen by her must be excluded.
Also I find this interesting, that the two huge connected globes in the lower right may not even be stars. Why are they so out of proportion with the other stars? Maybe they are what Betty remembers as a planetarium projector:
originally posted by: ArMaP
originally posted by: james1947
Wow, I wasn't aware that Betty's Extraterrestrials were from a different Galaxy!!! I mean, how else could they have different stars than we see in our sky.
Seriously, man, just how are the stars that Betty saw any different than the ones we look at every night??!!!?
Why are you talking about different stars? I said nothing about different stars, I was talking about the map.
What I was trying to say was that without knowing the original map we cannot know if what Betty Hill drew was correct or not, just that.
Is it that hard to understand?
originally posted by: james1947
ETA: ArMap...we DO know what the original map looked like!!!
originally posted by: james1947
And, how hard is it to understand that IF I plot 2800 given stars, and ET plots those same 2800 stars, that the plots or maps will be identical?
ETA: ArMap...we DO know what the original map looked like!!!
originally posted by: ConfusedBrit
I think what ArMap means is that we know the appearance of the map that Betty originally saw under regression, but she may have been mistaken in her recollection.
originally posted by: ArMaP
Is my English that hard to understand?
originally posted by: ArMaP
originally posted by: james1947
And, how hard is it to understand that IF I plot 2800 given stars, and ET plots those same 2800 stars, that the plots or maps will be identical?
We are not talking about an ET map, we are talking about Betty's map, and we don't know if what she drew corresponds to what she (supposedly) saw or not. That's why I have been talking about her map's accuracy.
ETA: ArMap...we DO know what the original map looked like!!!
I ask you again: were you aboard the Alien ship? That would be the only way to know what the map looked like.
originally posted by: james1947
I fail to understand just how you can be so confused! You have NO UNDERSTANDING of why I am calling the story "irrelevant", IF you did you might understand why the story doesn't affect anything in this analysis.
originally posted by: james1947
However, IF you can find something in Betty's psychology that might remotely affect this, please, point it out.
Source: Scientific American article
Dreams are notoriously difficult to recall. In fact, if a dream ends before we wake up, we will not remember it. The processes that allow us to create long-term memories largely lie dormant while we sleep, which is why most dreams are forgotten shortly after waking. For instance, an important neurotransmitter for remembering, norepinephrine, exists at very low levels during dreaming, as does electrical activity in areas key to long-term memory, such as the prefrontal cortex.
Source: Hypnosis and Memory(direct pdf download)
Hypnosis appears incapable of expanding awareness, so as to enable subjects to remember things that would otherwise remain forgotten. However, the social context of hypnosis, including widely shared (though false) beliefs about its capacity for memory enhancement (with or withoutage regression), and the suggestive context in which hypnosis occurs in the first place, renders the hypnotized subject vulnerable to various kinds of distortions in memory. Because the risks of distortion vastly outweigh the chances of obtaining any useful information, forensic investigators and clinical practitioners should avoid hypnosis as a technique for enhancing recollection.
See how just the process of retrieving the map goes against it's believability? It's highly unlikely that she remembered it accurately. It also seems Betty carried herself as a UFO nut before, during, and after. Many, if not most, question your theory. You've wasted so much effort on this map and you're obviously not seeking to be challenged. You're stuck on the "impossible odds".
You should be encouraging people to make up their own mind while reading all of the Hill case. Stop trying to convince the ill-informed on only one part and trying to appear scientific in your approach.
originally posted by: ArMaP
originally posted by: james1947
Actually we are talking about ET's map.
And you say this is a scientific approach?
Things are what they are, not what we want them to be, and in this case we do not have access to the ET's map, so we can only use Betty's map.
Nobody knows, including you, that is the point, and to pretend you know is not scientific.
originally posted by: james1947
These stars are the same stars known to ET, I presume. So...tell me, just how is it that ET's star maps are different?
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: james1947
originally posted by: james1947
"These stars are the same stars known to ET, I presume. So...tell me, just how is it that ET's star maps are different?"
Nobody knows, including you, that is the point, and to pretend you know is not scientific.
Even though we are "primitive' in the sense we don't have interstellar travel which some aliens may have, even our primitive navigation does not use "maps" in space, so the whole idea of the star map is more likely to be a product of Betty hill's hypnosis session than something aliens would really have.
You can ignore the other lines of evidence if you want, but you can stop claiming your approach is scientific because it's not. No good scientist would pursue only one line of evidence and ignore all the other lines of evidence like you're doing.
"in the hypnosis session the map was in a bound book but...Betty told Marden it was pulled down from the ceiling and was “almost like looking out a window about three feet wide and two feet high”. So which was it, a map in a bound book or almost like looking out a window? The two descriptions are not similar at all.
Lastly you ignore the biggest inconsistency of all, that Betty Hill labeled the stars on her map, and your labels don't match hers! Who better than the person who actually saw the alien map to know when she's seen a good match?
In a television interview [4] she retells the scene in this way: "I don't know if there was an opening in the wall or just what made out of sight and hide the map. He didn't pull down anything like that" - here Betty made a movement with her hand as if she would pull down a rolled up map - "and it was probably about two by three feet. And it was almost - it was all realistic - like looking at the sky and even some of the objects seemed to be slowly moving. He asked me if I knew where we are on the map and I told him 'no'. And he said, well, if I didn't know any basic information then it will be impossible for him to show me where they were from. And with that he put the star map he pushed something - and the map was gone." In the dreams some weeks after the incident [5] she saw: "He went over to the wall and pulled down a map, strange to me. Now I would believe this to be a sky map. It was a map of heavens, with numerous sized stars and planets, some large some only pinpoints. Between many of these, lines were drawn, some broken lines, some light solid lines, some heavy black lines. They were not straight, not curved." "Some went from one planet to another, to another, in a series of lines. Others had no lines, and he said the lines were expeditions. He asked me where the Earth was on this map, and I admitted that I had no idea. He became slightly sarcastic and said that if I did not know where the Earth was, it was impossible to show me where he was from; he snapped the map back into place."
All the planets that are visible to the naked eye are depicted. Betty had two of them, Saturn and Jupiter, in her view during their trip Southwards that night. This was exactly the direction from which the UFO approached! In the "star map" the two are placed very conspicuously in the foreground and they had both have these half-circle "bands" in their pictures. It seems that these were shoved under Betty's nose with the hope that she would recognize the two bodies and then identify the Earth much easier to give the right answer to the question: "Where are you on the map?" If she understood the principle of the map, she would likely have come to the rest of the exercise.