Redemption for Fallen Angels and Fallen Humans

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: suruptileous

Today, it is common practice for the dead in purgatory to obtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven (C.C.C., X. Indulgences). So, in other words, the Catholic Church intervenes for the individual by asking Father God, who stores up our good works, to apply some of them in lieu of punishment due to sins. But these indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints. Although, falling short of the glory of Christ, this is a good example of atonement being made for the dead in the afterlife by offering up good works.

Sounds convoluted - doing good works to try to convince a sometimes forgiving god, to go easy on someone in purgatory ?

I may as well do some good works for random strangers and store some credit for them...

In conclusion, this, my friends, is the most loving thing you can do for these poor, lost souls.

How are they lost? Doesn't the god of all "knowingness" know whats in their hearts. How many times must someone be punished?

Catholic theology combined with your

What I say is true, it has been revealed to me by both Jesus Christ and Father God.

must makes it true?

Test it.

a reply to: suruptileous

I appreciate the love you are sharing.

But I still disagree with works getting one into heaven or saving another from Hell. Otherwise what was the point of Jesus dying for mankind? It would make his act moot.

Jesus died so that we would be sinless before God. Once we accept Jesus as our Savior, the ultimate price has been paid by Jesus and God sees us as righteous before him. Jesus paid the price. Sure, we will still sin as we are stuck in human form, but we repent.

There is nothing to test. We live under grace. There is nothing for us to prove or do after our acknowledgement of Jesus as our personal Savior.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

You're the one that said it: "So you are a fanatic, its my way or the high way?" You could have just posed it as, "It's my way or the high way," but you made sure to add the fanatic part.

No, not my own interpretation. I would know something is wrong with my thinking if I had different takes on what the Bible says compared to everyone else. I have the Holy Spirit guiding me, as well as I check my understanding against several sources.

I will certainly admit to not knowing God's full intention of meaning all of the time, especially when HIs meanings are deeper with the more knowledge that we gain as believers as a whole, as well as individually.

The Bible is an historical document, it is also the living word of God, it is our guide and it is current events and prophecy. It's not a dusty book of just ancient texts.

a reply to: suruptileous

sigh - I've had these discussions with others before - ya know like Genesis ch 1.

Free will ....

and BTW you're advocating a type of "black magic" in interfering with whats going with other souls in a "non biblical" purgatory. But I doubt you'll see the bigger picture.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: suruptileous

sigh - I've had these discussions with others before - ya know like Genesis ch 1.

Free will ....

and BTW you're advocating a type of "black magic" in interfering with whats going with other souls in a "non biblical" purgatory. But I doubt you'll see the bigger picture.

I never said I even believe in purgatory.

a reply to: hiddeninsite

You're the one that said it: "So you are a fanatic, its my way or the high way?"

are you really that ignorant of what this punctuation symbol "?" means?

its called a question mark, they are used when a question is asked.

No, not my own interpretation.

OK

that even speak more volumes that you cannot interpret things yourself and require another's interpretation to form your beliefs

I have the Holy Spirit guiding me, as well as I check my understanding against several sources.

perfect.



Can I ask you, Others with differing opinions and interpretations of the word aren't guided by the holy spirit?

I will certainly admit to not knowing God's full intention of meaning all of the time, especially when HIs meanings are deeper with the more knowledge that we gain as believers as a whole, as well as individually.

yet you posted such an absolute statement indicating you do but backed down a little and said something about kids and mentally disabled people being the same, jokes. I got what you said but to me its laughable, thinking that God has limitations and there is only one way to any destination.

But to each their own. I was only asking questions.

The Bible is an historical document, it is also the living word of God, it is our guide and it is current events and prophecy. It's not a dusty book of just ancient texts.

You can call it what you want

I never said it was dusty book of just ancient texts.

However, I shouldn't be surprised, this is very typical behavior and interpretation from a person that has fanatical tendencies but cannot or maybe in some cases knows but wont recognize them.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

Ah, going in circles. Make a left on your circle and get back to me. Then we can discuss this. Have a great day!

a reply to: hiddeninsite

Then we can discuss this. Have a great day!

Discuss what?

your misinterpretation of what I said which highlighted your inability to realize a question was being asked?

I really believe you do this intentionally otherwise why would you not just let it go or admit you didn't realize I was asking.

I made no edits in that post yet here you are replying ....what is it for the 3rd time.

Nothing to discuss when you use deceitful ways and try and say things were said when they weren't.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

I'm still willing to discuss anything with you, but you're going to have to stop with the attacks, trying to twist my words, and with the negative slant.

Is this how you talk to family? I think we could get along really well if the attitude just eased up a bit.

Are you a believer? Because maybe you just don't like Christians? If that's the case, then I can understand your tone a bit better. And if you're not a believer why are you even discussing this?

Curious, and hope for a reply.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

You know what?

I apologize for upsetting you or misunderstanding you. Genuinely.

a reply to: hiddeninsite

I'm still willing to discuss anything with you, but you're going to have to stop with the attacks, trying to twist my words, and with the negative slant.

The only twisting done is on your behalf.

negativity is your interpretation of how I choose to express myself for the reason to see if one can see positivity in what most would view as negative because many only choose to view things from one perspective.

Is this how you talk to family? I think we could get along really well if the attitude just eased up a bit.

Yes,

I know what it can seem like, its why I post in this certain way more often than not.

Its how its interpreted from a singular direction that is enlightening.

Are you a believer?

That's a rather vague question but yes, I believe in way too many things.

Because maybe you just don't like Christians?

that is using a term to describe a massive multitude of people.

I don't see Christians or Muslims or Hindus or ...... I see individuals.

I see them label themselves, let take Christians for example and look at this thread or just anywhere in life.

There is very little unity while a whole lot of division just amongst an individual denomination of Christianity, forget about Christianity as a whole once you see inside people hearts and they open up to face to face you see the diversity and how .... a choice deception at times just to fit in and have fingers pointed at them because of certain disagreements concerning their own religion or sect of their religion.

And if you're not a believer why are you even discussing this?

lets just play along like I am not a believer in God.

Do disbelievers not have free will or if God has a predetermined path for each of us does that path not allow them to speak amongst believers?


I listen to my intuition and am triggered by certain expressions and how and what some post.

most of the time I reply by asking questions in a way that is easily interpreted as an attack.

more often than not it is and shows a deeper truth in my opinion about the person I am interacting with.

Call me egotistical and a hypocrite and I will gladly confirm I am, its why act in the way I do.

Its the divisions I have inside that I see in others when I believe they cannot or choose to ignore them.

Curiosity can be a gift if one chooses to try and see the world and the incredible diversity from as many perspectives as possible,

there will always be one perspective that enlightens you to why things happen or why we act in the ways we do.

a reply to: suruptileous

I never said I even believe in purgatory.

Well you sure made efforts to blend it into your story
you wrote

Today, it is common practice for the dead in purgatory toobtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven (C.C.C., X. Indulgences). So, in other words, the Catholic Church intervenes for the individual by asking Father God, who stores up our good works, to apply some of them in lieu of punishment due to sins. But these indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints. Although, falling short of the glory of Christ, this is a good example of atonement being made for the dead in the afterlife by offering up good works.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: suruptileous

I never said I even believe in purgatory.

Well you sure made efforts to blend it into your story
you wrote

Today, it is common practice for the dead in purgatory toobtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven (C.C.C., X. Indulgences). So, in other words, the Catholic Church intervenes for the individual by asking Father God, who stores up our good works, to apply some of them in lieu of punishment due to sins. But these indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints. Although, falling short of the glory of Christ, this is a good example of atonement being made for the dead in the afterlife by offering up good works.

It served as a good example.

a reply to: suruptileous

It served as a good example.

Or you're wasting our time trolling us with your "word salad" faux theology.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: suruptileous

It served as a good example.

Or you're wasting our time trolling us with your "word salad" faux theology.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good,

Ask yourselves this one question; if I wanted someone out of hell, how could it be done? Well, we know people are in hell because their sins have not been forgiven. They were not covered by Christ's sacrificial blood atonement.

If we look at both, the old and new testaments, we can see sin offerings being made for people other than ourselves.

Numbers 28:30. Include one male goat to make atonement for you.

Hebrews 5:3. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

And if we look in the book of Maccabees, we can see atonement being made for those in the afterlife.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Today, in the Catholic Church, good works are being used as atonement for those who died in mortal sin.

I reiterate, "It is all the same for God to free prisoners in this world from their captives as it is for Christ to free prisoners from their captives in the spirit world."

Zechariah 9:11. As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.

"And Christ will free prisoners in hell through you because of the blood of the covenant He has with you. This is a blessing bestowed upon us by our Lord."

a reply to: suruptileous

Those are Old Testament books. Jesus did away with sin offerings. All one has to do is accept Jesus as their savior before they die and all is well.

There is nothing a human can do, otherwise the point of Jesus dying for every single human being after his death is of no point.

originally posted by: hiddeninsite
a reply to: suruptileous

Those are Old Testament books. Jesus did away with sin offerings. All one has to do is accept Jesus as their savior before they die and all is well.

There is nothing a human can do, otherwise the point of Jesus dying for every single human being after his death is of no point.

Hebrews is a new testament book.

Hebrews 5:3. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

Sin offerings are still made today with the Catholic Church offering up good works for those who die of a mortal sin. So can we offer up our good works for those in hell.

a reply to: suruptileous

This verse is referring to the Jewish high priest. They were still offering sacrifices as Jesus was still alive at that time. This high priest was chosen by the people to represent them and to atone for their sins. It is a comparison of how a human is posing as someone worthy to offer the sacrifice (of animal) to God to wash people of their sins.

This verse is explaining (again - you have to take the context of the prior and after sentences, the paragraph) (in order to understand the whole meaning) that Jesus was as tempted as any human, more so in fact and that he would be the perfect sacrifice when the time came.

originally posted by: hiddeninsite
a reply to: suruptileous

This verse is referring to the Jewish high priest. They were still offering sacrifices as Jesus was still alive at that time. This high priest was chosen by the people to represent them and to atone for their sins. It is a comparison of how a human is posing as someone worthy to offer the sacrifice (of animal) to God to wash people of their sins.

This verse is explaining (again - you have to take the context of the prior and after sentences, the paragraph) (in order to understand the whole meaning) that Jesus was as tempted as any human, more so in fact and that he would be the perfect sacrifice when the time came.

Here is an example of a military leader, not a priest, known as Judas offering up money for the atonement of sin. We can offer up our good works for the atonement of another's sin in the afterlife. Please read;

2 Maccabees 12:38-46. Expiation for the Dead. 38 Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was approaching, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. 39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 [a]Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.