Wernher Von Braun Tombstone; Psalm 19-1

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Raggedyman

A big cloud of all-pervasive water vapor that apparently superseded today's rain.

It’s interesting
One thing scientists can’t work out, how some large dinosaurs could breathe enough air, or get enough oxygen through their very small mouths and noses to aeroratr their body.

Some people have theorised there was more oxygen in the air once upon a time anyway

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: toysforadults
I will try to spell it out more carefully.

One definition of the "firmament" is, as you quote, the dome above the atmosphere.
But the Psalmist says that the firmament displays the glory of God.
And the glory of God can only be displayed by something that is visible.
The notional "dome", as such, is not visible.
Therefore the Psalmist cannot mean that the dome itself displays the glory of God.

However, the firmament was also understood as being the location of the stars, which were understood as being embedded in the dome and carried around by the dome.
And the stars are visible.
So when the Psalmist says that the firmament "displays the glory of God", he must be referring to the visible expanse of stars- "the heavens".
And when the tombstone quotes the Psalm. that should also be understood as a reference to the visible expanse of stars.
So nothing in the tombstone wording is actually endorsing the old "dome" concept.

Is my meaning now clear?

How about a hollow shell with holes in it, through which the glory of God shines?

a reply to: Raggedyman

Higher atmospheric PSI and higher oxygen density, check.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I heard almost 50% oxygen at one point.

Problem is that oxygen is a toxin when it’s not O2, in many animals.

Fire would also be a constant threat to life, after all, oxygen is part of the makings of fire.

Insects and fish would probably fare rather well, but we and other small mammals, would have to evolve smaller and hardier lungs or perhaps some other way to process oxygen for our needs.

So if there was a time when our Earths atmosphere was 50% oxygen, we were not around in our present condition to witness such a thing.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Raggedyman

I heard almost 50% oxygen at one point.

Problem is that oxygen is a toxin when it’s not O2, in many animals.

Fire would also be a constant threat to life, after all, oxygen is part of the makings of fire.

Insects and fish would probably fare rather well, but we and other small mammals, would have to evolve smaller and hardier lungs or perhaps some other way to process oxygen for our needs.

So if there was a time when our Earths atmosphere was 50% oxygen, we were not around in our present condition to witness such a thing.

I am just parroting what I have heard as theories, not sure of anything
I think possibly the Firmament was a physical ice barrier around the earth many years ago, it seems the earth was once a giant greenhouse, maybe

Firmament is just a general synonym for 'sky. He chose a nice sounding biblical reference that matched his career. Looking for any more than that is just wishful thinking.

Actually he ripped the page out of the bible and attached it to his will with a paperclip.
Get it "paperclip". Oh well you can't get it all the time, please yourselves.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Firmament is just a general synonym for 'sky. He chose a nice sounding biblical reference that matched his career. Looking for any more than that is just wishful thinking.

It is equally wishful to forget that Von Braun's "career" as Nazi SS officer included the utilization of slave labor to build V2 rocket propelled bombs that targeted civilians under orders from Adolf Hitler.

Herr Von Braun, Thomas O. Paine, George Mueller, Spiro Agnew and others made some bold statements about the capability of Saturn rockets reaching Mars by the 70-80's, or by the end of the 20th century. Wishful thinking to forget that, too.

In the gravestone it shows Psalms 19:1 but that is just the first line... it goes to 14 interesting verses.

Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

The subject is "the heavens declare" - the voice of the heavens is evident in verse 3...

Psalm 19:3 "There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard."

"where their voice" means "where the voice of the heavens"
Is this a reference to the strange noises heard by Apollo astronauts when they went to the "moon"?

Psalm 19:5 "Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race."

Oh, so now he's referencing the Space Race on his tombstone!

Psalm 19:6 "His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

"nothing hid from the heat thereof" means "the radiation" of the heavens. The subject has not changed from verse 1-6... David is still on about the "voice".

Now we can see some hints in the Psalm 19 which beg us to continue reading past the first verse. Are there more? Yup.

Psalm 19:12 "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."

Must mean that Wernher von Braun wished to understand his errors and be cleansed of secret faults. Could be possible reference to his obedient days as a Hitlerite slave driver and mass-murdering war criminal.

Psalm 19:13 "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression."

I wonder what "the great transgression" would refer to? Must mean that von Braun felt awfully guilty... about *something*.

Psalm 19:14 "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer."

Must mean that in the end of his life von Braun recognized a need to acknowledge the existence of "heaven" and the "firmament", and to ingratiate himself with the Lord, and to beg forgiveness for the sins of a great transgression.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Me to mate, me too.

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: ManFromEurope

not sure there is second one is there?

Of course there is. A definition of "firmament " used by many people is similar to the Oxford English Dictionary that has as its first definition:

"The heavens or sky."

To me it has always meant "space", such as the way the term "the heavens" means space to most people.

a reply to: toysforadults

Well, I think the more profound message, especially for his time, was that he, as the lead scientist at NASA for a long time, believes in God. All this science only made him see Gods fingerprints more and more...

You are focusing on that one word and sure that is one way to interpret this but...come on...this is his headstone... Hes coming to be at peace with his creator as he comes up with his epitaph... Hes shouting to the world, YES, I DO believe in God! It doesnt seem likely he is leaving this as a hint to Flat Earth unless you can find other references where he tried to hint at it.

With something like this, and as he is nearing the end of his life... and he has this hypothetical message that is very important to him, important enough to put on his headstone... but instead of making it clear, he does something totally ambiguous that has people arguing about it? No, hes smarter than that I'm guessing.

So, unless you can connect this to a long string of hints and innuendos from him about Flat Earth... or even just one or two others... This is a stand alone phenomena. I'm more inclined to think he was being controversial enough for his time by simply declaring, or rather reaffirming, his faith in God.

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: ManFromEurope

not sure there is second one is there?

Of course there is. A definition of "firmament " used by many people is similar to the Oxford English Dictionary that has as its first definition:

"The heavens or sky."

To me it has always meant "space", such as the way the term "the heavens" means space to most people.

I've always thought of it as the atmosphere. It is quite firm compared to the heavens.

Like a person jumping of a tall enough bridge into supposedly "soft" water yet they break bones and are knocked unconscious or killed by the impact, because they gained so much speed traveling through enough air, an asteroid or space debris or anything going fast enough will feel the friction of hitting our atmosphere with enough heat to make it glow red hot, and sometimes even explode in an air burst.

It could be considered a firmament. Try explaining what I said to an ancient person, let them go tell it to the others and they will assume that there is some kind of a solid force field or crystalline structure shielding the planet.

Also some believe that, in the distant past, it never rained. The clouds were like a constant barrier letting in only a little light. Then one day, it started raining. So this hypothetical vapor barrier that encased the Earth could be the firmament?

a reply to: St Udio

the Psalm quote was his desired way to be remembered.... not as a Nazi Scientist making rockets for war purposes

Well to be fair, it had been over 32 years since he had made Nazi rockets at the time he died, and he did space stuff up until the year of his death.

a reply to: toysforadults

Ok...let me just clear this up for everyone.
In the Bible we have the ark of the covenant...a gold covered box that contained the ten commandments, and Noah's ark which contained Noah's family and the animals...so, in my way of thinking the word ark must simply mean a container of some sort, whether large or small.
In the same vein firmament is used to describe the area where a covering of water vapor encircled the planet above earth's surface.Firmament also refers to the atmosphere above the surface of the earth where the birds fly and it also refers to the area above the earth where the stars are...so obviously firmament is a generic term for the area above the surface of the earth, which extends into space.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: toysforadults

And why not?

He wasted his epitaph just to wind people up rather than make a statement about his life?

I think you're the one trying to wind people up.

a reply to: 3n19m470

Well spotted.

originally posted by: 3n19m470

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: ManFromEurope

not sure there is second one is there?

Of course there is. A definition of "firmament " used by many people is similar to the Oxford English Dictionary that has as its first definition:

"The heavens or sky."

To me it has always meant "space", such as the way the term "the heavens" means space to most people.

I've always thought of it as the atmosphere. It is quite firm compared to the heavens.

By "space" I meant everything above you in the sky that you can see. To most people the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars we see in the sky are the firmament.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Any time you want to point out what that's got to with anything I wrote there be my guest.

Stop trying to crowbar in an argument about something by inventing a statement that wasn't made.

Von Braun built big rockets that flew into space. That's what he's referencing on his gravestone. That's it.

a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Firmament is just a general synonym for 'sky.

That's not accurate. Firmament has also a biblical, scholarly interpretation.

biologos.org...