Shouldn't Teachers know better? Denver is Expensive!

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: zosimov

You are the only person actually making sense in this thread.

You complain over and over about not having enough, and here you are endorsing higher taxes for teacher pay.

I'll ask you the same ... do the children get an education worth the money the state allocates per child? If not, why not? And where does the money go? Why are you in favor of pissing more money away down this drain?

Again, paying this teacher more does nothing to help those kids, and they're the ones who should be helped.

a reply to: ketsuko

I never complain about anything I create threads that are assertions and observations of the market. Majority of you are deluded and can't separate people from their point of view. It shows a lack of intelligence.

Also, here I sit with thousands of dollars of computer equipment I've purchased for my home lab that I use to pursue an advanced degree in a technology program.

I feel sad for those of you who can't think outside of your own individual experience and analyze things objectively.

a reply to: [post=24180133]toysforadults[/pos

The other thing about this ...

This woman is a teacher. She already works for a union. All she has to do is stay the course. She's already guaranteed a steady raise year after year, more if she continues her education.

I've been there myself, and I've seen how that pay structure works.

I am sorry that rate of return isn't fast enough for her, but that is how these things go in union world. But then, I guess when a union doesn't like what they have, they punish everyone else by striking. Now, all the parents who have kids in school, even those who make much, much less and have far less job security have been left in a lurch trying to figure out how to handle their children all day while these ladies who, as has been pointed out, make an average wage for the area -- and that's to start -- force the issue and demand more.

PS -- Socialism isn't the answer. These ladies are already working inside a socialized market in the US education system, and it doesn't seem to be making them happy or prosperous, does it?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: zosimov

Denver 1 spends about $12,000 annually per student. Can you honestly say those kids receive an education in line with that kind of money?

That is such a beautiful and profound statement right there, and really gets to the heart of the whole issue.

Why are we doing this? We say for the kids, but are we?

The answer is no in many cases. In states like Illinois 40+% are going to pensions and getting worse. Very soon 90 cents of every education dollar will be spent on pensions and not students.

Denver is not unique, many schools mismanage their budgets and then ask for more money to "fix" it, the problem will never get fixed if the root of the problem is not looked at.

"Fox-31 News first reported this year claims by teachers and a former internal auditor at Adams 12 that the district was intentionally hiding millions of dollars in a reserve fund, while at the same time laying off teachers and cutting teacher salaries, school resources and programs."
www.denverpost.com...

Although I have a soft spot for teachers (I was one for years, and several of those years I was actually in Denver), I think this article is using teachers as the main talking point in a larger discussion: it costs too much to live in a lot of the country nowadays, the cost of living has skyrocketed and salaries haven't kept up.

There are a lot of people on this thread saying "well they knew what they were getting into"...maybe they didn't? A little over a decade ago, I lived very comfortably on a teacher's salary in Denver. 5 years after that, I had to relocate because I couldn't afford to live there anymore. The cost of living rose SO fast, that salaries couldn't keep up. They still haven't caught up.
To put it in perspective, in 2008 a friend of mine bought a house in Denver (not a suburb) for 150k and change. In 2017 he sold it for 620k. He fixed it up a little, but it's not like he put on an addition or anything. Typical remodeling (he's not rich), and a 470k profit. In 9 years. It's crazy expensive in Denver.

Then people say "why are teachers the only important ones in this situation, what about everyone else?" To that I'll avoid my thoughts on teachers and just say, you're right. A huge portion of the Denver population is struggling to live, going paycheck to paycheck, just as described in the article.

Ignore the fact that the teachers were highlighted, just think about it in general. It's not a good situation.

Some of you say "if you can't afford to do it, just move and teach somewhere more affordable". If all the teachers left because they don't earn a living wage, who is going to teach the kids in the entire city of Denver? Should all of the kids just leave too? That isn't a solution, people need to teach. Same as, delivery drivers need to drive, store clerks need to run cash registers, on and on and on. Should they all just leave too? Not everyone can afford to just up and move...especially if they're living paycheck to paycheck with nothing to save.
It's not just teachers, everyone at a similar pay grade is facing the same situation. Denver is going to go way downhill in the very near future, because a lot of people are going to be priced out of it.

Also, a lot of ignorance is being said in this thread. Teachers are NOT guaranteed steady raise year after year. Spending freezes, budget cuts, etc all affect whether or not a teacher gets a raise. There were quite a few years that no one in my school got a raise because of district-wide spending freezes.

Stop spreading lies.

a reply to: ketsuko

So just coming back from a conversation with my son's Kindergarden teacher who is not striking today because she is on a different system. She told me she gets paid even less than many of the teachers on strike, which is consistent with what I found online (but couldn't verify so didn't post here) and she grimly acknowledged (with just a nod, she wasn't about to complain, but I could see the topic resonated with her) the ridiculous cost of living here in Denver.

One poster seemed to think that an influx of out-of-state teachers is artificially driving up the housing market, but more likely is that the legalization of MJ brought a huge influx of investors, workers, etc., and the supply of workers outweighs the demand (more homeless too), but the demand for housing is enabling landlords to charge rates that many salaries can't sustain. Right now an average rent in Denver is $1650 for a single bedroom 850 square foot space. To put the change in perspective, I was renting a studio space with my own yard within walking distance of Denver in 2012 for $795 a month. I was a teacher then lol (for a private language school) and could survive on my salary and even put a (little) money away which was nice to have when I started my family.

I think I did directly answer your question about the $12,000 per student when I said that, while I was happy with my kids' education so far, I knew for certain that the teachers weren't seeing even a fraction of this amount per student, and that the classrooms also didn't reflect this type of budget (obviously lots goes on behind the scenes to keep a school running but still don't see that kind of expenditure).

I also said that I believe the money is being mismanaged. I would love to volunteer as an auditor to figure out if any money is being syphoned off or just plain misspent. This is my number one argument against taxing our hard earned income for services that we all take advantage of. When I think about how we've already benefitted off of other people hard earned tax money when we recieved our education, I feel good knowing that my money is helping a younger generation. These are the doctors that will be nursing me in my old age so I hope the teachers do it right

But JAG's numbers that she's working with just does NOT reflect a large number of the teachers. It might be the average, but the teachers both my kids have had made considerably less than the lowest average she posted. Unfortunately, though the schools did attract really excellent out-of-state instructors (my daughter's teachers attended Davenport, William and Mary, Harvard, Princeton and I DO appreciate sourcing from out of state, even if I think DU and CU are good schools) but can't keep a new teacher more than a few years.

Our system needs a change. It's not sustainable now, and every person starting out in a new profession should at least be able to afford a single person apartment lifestyle. Nothing too grand but enough that she/he could focus on the job and not on basic survival.

a reply to: narrator

Thank you for chiming in. I love hearing from people that have actually lived it. I considered being a teacher, I was an aid for a year and decided it wasn't for me.

Some of you say "if you can't afford to do it, just move and teach somewhere more affordable". If all the teachers left because they don't earn a living wage, who is going to teach the kids in the entire city of Denver? Should all of the kids just leave too? That isn't a solution, people need to teach.

It is the only solution right now. At least for the smart people. You figured it out.
It's sad, but since the beginning of time migration was a form of survival. Right now it is economic survival.


I've gone to school all over the US and outside of the US. I have some different thoughts on our education problems.

#1 Property taxed based school funding is outdated and doesn't work
#2 School finances should be 100% transparent
#3 I actually don't think we need as many teachers as we have. With all the technology we have now many more course could be taught online or remotely. There are some amazing teachers. What if those top teachers taught remotely to a much larger population? Wouldn't that both save, and help more students. I'm not for 100% remote is most cases, but let's face it, everything is online, kids are on the phone/computer, let's use it.

#4 Schools are way too fancy these days. A Wisconsin school has a gym that rivals top NFL locker rooms with air conditioned shoe locker.
www.si.com...

Denver is going to go way downhill in the very near future, because a lot of people are going to be priced out of it.

I think Denver, and Colorado enjoyed the early pot boom, and migration from California. As both of those slow I think things will level out for Colorado.

BTW.. I have lived in Colorado twice and can say without hesitation that was the worst school system I ever attended! Maybe a radical change is needed.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: narrator

Thank you for chiming in. I love hearing from people that have actually lived it. I considered being a teacher, I was an aid for a year and decided it wasn't for me.

Some of you say "if you can't afford to do it, just move and teach somewhere more affordable". If all the teachers left because they don't earn a living wage, who is going to teach the kids in the entire city of Denver? Should all of the kids just leave too? That isn't a solution, people need to teach.

It is the only solution right now. At least for the smart people. You figured it out.
It's sad, but since the beginning of time migration was a form of survival. Right now it is economic survival.


I've gone to school all over the US and outside of the US. I have some different thoughts on our education problems.

#1 Property taxed based school funding is outdated and doesn't work
#2 School finances should be 100% transparent
#3 I actually don't think we need as many teachers as we have. With all the technology we have now many more course could be taught online or remotely. There are some amazing teachers. What if those top teachers taught remotely to a much larger population? Wouldn't that both save, and help more students. I'm not for 100% remote is most cases, but let's face it, everything is online, kids are on the phone/computer, let's use it.

#4 Schools are way too fancy these days. A Wisconsin school has a gym that rivals top NFL locker rooms with air conditioned shoe locker.
www.si.com...

You're right, as it stands now it might be the only solution for the teachers, but what about the kids? I think that's just as important (maybe more important in the teacher's eyes) than the teachers themselves.

But, I think you hit the nail on the head: remote classrooms. It just makes so much sense nowadays. I'd further add that, in this day and age, kids might pay MORE attention to a teacher on a screen than a teacher in a classroom. They're so addicted to screens anyway, why not have their education on a screen too? It just makes sense to me. I've been considering getting my teacher certification back up to date and looking for a remote teaching job. It's the way schools are heading, I think more schools need to implement it.

The only issue I can see with it (and it's a big one), is how are kids going to be supervised while they're "at school" on a computer? Do parents have to fork over money for babysitting while they're at work and their kids are at home? I don't have a solution for that. If we overcome that hurdle, remote teaching is definitely the way to go.

Her choice to live in an expensive place, yeah she wants her cake and eat it too. Doesn’t work that way. She should move to the south, the “Corridor of shame”. They need teachers, especially good ones. The fraud and corruption of the school districts, especially in one county of SC was so bad they had to do a total overhaul of the school system last year and this is 2018! It still is bad from what I read. She could move ther, cost of living is as cheap as it gets, but I doubt she will, SC doesn’t have mountains and the Colorado scenery she wants to keep. She sounds like the stereotypical woman jogger granola.

a reply to: narrator

The only issue I can see with it (and it's a big one), is how are kids going to be supervised while they're "at school" on a computer? Do parents have to fork over money for babysitting while they're at work and their kids are at home? I don't have a solution for that. If we overcome that hurdle, remote teaching is definitely the way to go.

I think it depends on the age.
For middle school / younger they need more supervision so I would say "classrooms" that are proctored, but taught remotely by a real teacher.
What would be great is that if a child can't go to school due to illness, or snow days etc, they could learn remotely.
Maybe it would be their choice to attend school or stay at home. As long as grades were kept up and work was turned in? This might save a fortune on bussing too. Maybe Junior/Senior year would be almost completely remote?

a reply to: zosimov

Wait ... You're telling me that legalizing weed wasn't the economic answer everyone told you it would be?

This is my shocked face even though you can't see it.

And, of course, you might want to check those policies y'all are voting for. It seems this is the pattern that happened to California too. No one can afford to live there anymore. What color is that state and which party dictates its policies?

Now, do the rest of us a favor. DON'T MOVE WHERE WE ARE.

a reply to: ketsuko

Lol, wouldn't want to move anyplace I wasn't wanted that is for sure.

And for the medicinal benefit and for taking on Big Pharma, I'm proud of my state. It took my meeting a few crucial people in the early 2000s to be fully convinced of the benefits of medicinal marijuana.. one of them was a 16 year old cancer patient on chemo who said that mj was the only "drug" that helped him with nausea and appetite. My friend's dad was dying of cancer and had one beautiful pain and worry free afternoon laughing with his daughters thanks to pot brownies. A woman with MS whose doctors had told her (at 17) that she would most likely be in a wheelchair and perhaps unable to talk by middle age who ws walking and talking just fine well into retirement, and she credited it to marijuana (studies agree). A man with insomnia (from a car accident-- said it worked like a charm and was the only thing that worked.) At the time these people were criminals and I'm so glad they wouldn't be considered such anymore.

Now that other states are getting on board, less and less people are needing to leave their home state if they want to pursue the industry. Which is good for us.

Enjoy your own peace while you have it! I certainly wouldn't want to wish these types of prices on anyone. Hope it never comes your way.