A Conspiracy Against Love

After three discussions in the last week I feel I have to engage in my first 'God' topic here at ATS.
As a member only for only 4 and a half months, I have tried to stay away from posting in religious threads.
This is because many members cannot engage in discussion about religion without having tolerant views.

I politely request if you have no intention to add to this dicussion respectfully please only watch.

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Personal Background My father is a retired Lutheran Pastor and Assistant Bishop of the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Synod of America). I grew up in a very conservative Christian home. I had to go to sunday school and church every week. Sometimes for two services. I was very comfortable in my faith and strong in it's views regarding marraige and adultery.

In high school I stayed a virgin but alas in my College I found the pleasures of life to be great. I always was monogamous with my partners of which I had 3 in 4 years. However I do remember getting drunk twice and waking up with two different girls...but that's a whole different story.

I am now married and have never and plan never to be tempted by others' flesh. This may have been founded in my religious upbringing but it is not enforced by it. I choose monogamy as personal preference. I do oppose, however, individuals who views may be considered Facist when they state all peoples of the world must have the same preferences as their God dictates.

After conversations with few members on ATS and you know who you are, I have created this forum to deal with the central question, is the concept of Thou Shall Not Committ Adultry a monogamous conspiracy against love?

To guide us in our discussion I have created sub questions and will add more if needed as the discussion progresses.

Guiding Questions
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Question: Is adultery, as defined as marraige outside wedlock, something that occurs only after one has married?

Question: Is pre-marital sex adultry in the eyes of the Christian God?

Question: Is adultery contradictory to polygamy?

Question: Is adultery actually a man made concept to promote monogamy and one not given by God?

Question: Biblical charachters were polygamous and holy men, does that not mean marraige is not specifically a monogamouos union?


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Thank you, 00ps





EDIT:FORMAT




[edit on 28-2-2005 by 00PS]

Originally posted by 00PS

Question: Is adultery, as defined as marraige outside wedlock, something that occurs only after one has married?
1 Corinthians 7:2-5 is a section that speaks of marriage as the answer to those who do not have the gift or ability to live without sexual activity. That solution is marriage and having sex with your life's partner, not simply becoming sexually active. Hebrews 13:4 is a strong passage that on the one hand speaks highly of the marriage bed (sexual activity within marriage) and on the other hand flatly condemns sexual activity outside of marriage. (The Bible words usually translated "adultery" may refer to a wide range of wrong sexual behavior, whether by those married or unmarried.) And all the passages that refer to marital unfaithfulness (like Matthew 19:9) assume sexual activity within marriage while condemning such activity outside of the marriage bond.

Question: Is pre-marital sex adultry in the eyes of the Christian God?
The basic passage is Genesis 2:4 which is also quoted by Jesus in Matthew 19:6. God instituted marriage to be a union of one man and one woman. The man is to leave his father and mother and be united to his wife. Only then do they become one flesh to enjoy the blessing of sexual intercourse that God gives us in marriage. Heb 13:4 and 1 Co 7:2-5 also speak about marriage as the only place where God wants his gift of sexual intercourse to be practiced. The better way to translate 1 Thess 4:3-5 (instead of "control his own body" in the NIV the words should read "obtain a wife") also speaks to this point.

Question: Is adultery contradictory to polygamy?
If you define Adultery as being an immoral sexual act. The Bible never explicitly prohibits polygamy, but it does state God's original intention for marriage: one man and one woman in a one flesh relationship. It also illustrates the ill results of polygamy. Romans 7:2-3 shows it is wrong to marry a second spouse.

Question: Is adultery actually a man made concept to promote monogamy and one not given by God?
I am not sure what you mean by this since God promotes monogamy, as does a majority of man made laws.

Question: Biblical charachters were polygamous and holy men, does that not mean marraige is not specifically a monogamouos union?
Almost all of the patriarches in the bible were married to only one women. Any adulterous relationships, or even marriage to more then one women never worked out in the long run, and often caused more harm in the end. For Abraham, none of his offspring other then the one to Sarah ever inherited Gods promise of a savior being born to the line. For Soloman he fell into sin, and the Kingdom became divded, and evetually destroyed.

If you do have Luthern background, wouldn't it have been easier to look at Luther's Large Catechism: 6th Commandment?

Well it does say in there that man would be better off saying a virgin throughout his whole life, but if he can't, he should get married. That in itself should answer many of those.

actually, I think that adultery was originally define a sexual relationship that involved another man's wife...I think a married man could have a relationship with an unmarried women, and it might have been considered fornification, but not adultery.

I think it was sometime later that the idea that men should have a monogamous relationship came about.....otherwise, just how do you explain all the patriarchs with their many wives and concubines?

The idea that ****women**** should be held into manogamous relationships was born from the desire that men had to know who their sons were and have paternal rights to them....all or which is impossible (or at least was back then) if she's got two or three men she's entertaining.

and, well, if you spend some time reading the old testament, you might walk away wondering, just what position "love" had in the arrangements.....

I tell you what, I am not a Christian believer but if you want harmony in relationship stay monogamous otherwise you will be on trouble.

And adultery is part of our laws in this country when it comes to separation and divorce and so its sodomy and many ohters........

So one day you will understand, is something you can't fight and is love.

Originally posted by 00PS
Question: Is adultery, as defined as marraige outside wedlock, something that occurs only after one has married?

Question: Is pre-marital sex adultry in the eyes of the Christian God?

Question: Is adultery contradictory to polygamy?

Question: Is adultery actually a man made concept to promote monogamy and one not given by God?

Question: Biblical charachters were polygamous and holy men, does that not mean marraige is not specifically a monogamouos union?


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Thank you, 00ps





EDIT:FORMAT




[edit on 28-2-2005 by 00PS]

I do not believe that any of your questions address the true nature of the conspiracy against love that destroys the world around us. We have not experienced true way that life was meant to be and while we live in a world where we continiue to hurt each other we will continiue to deprive each other of the true, intended experience of love. If you can/have look(ed) into the eyes of your partner and see that you share a love that denies fear, doubt and pain then you are fighting this conspiracy We have to be able to look into the eyes of our partners, married or casual, and see that admission pass between us to begin to experience the intended emotion that two people findin sharing themselves together.
Religion is a totally different matter to me. I do not need it because I see the path I need to follow cleary. I also see the confusion and harm it causes to others who suffer at the hands of those who corrupt it.


[edit on 28/2/2005 by JamesBlonde]

[edit on 28/2/2005 by JamesBlonde]

Originally posted by Jehosephat
If you do have Luthern background, wouldn't it have been easier to look at Luther's Large Catechism: 6th Commandment?

I cut my catechism book all up to make cheat sheets. I hated catechism class. I went to Christian private schools from Pre-K until 7th grade. I had 2 years of Catechism class. What made it worse was the principal was the teacher.

If you would like to mail me one that would be great. I would also like the green hym book. You know I've never seen them in China!!!

I think you covered lots of things well but about the polygamy...we'll have to go into that one further.

Originally posted by Marg6043
I tell you what, I am not a Christian believer but if you want harmony in relationship stay monogamous otherwise you will be on trouble.

Marg, while I agree with you on most of the things you write here I have to say that what may be fine for me may not be fine for someone else. I choose Monogamy. However I question Polygamy as a form adultry but cannot come to a clear understanding of this.

Originally posted by JamesBlonde
I do not believe that any of your questions address the true nature of the conspiracy against love that destroys the world around us. We have not experienced true way that life was meant to be and while we live in a world where we continiue to hurt each other we will continiue to deprive each other of the true, intended experience of love. If you can/have look(ed) into the eyes of your partner and see that you share a love that denies fear, doubt and pain then you are fighting this conspiracy We have to be able to look into the eyes of our partners, married or casual, and see that admission pass between us to begin to experience the intended emotion that two people findin sharing themselves together.
Religion is a totally different matter to me. I do not need it because I see the path I need to follow cleary. I also see the confusion and harm it causes to others who suffer at the hands of those who corrupt it.

Just a note, you don't have to quote my whole thread to reply to me it does slow loading times down. Anyways I know what you say, I also stated we can add more questions as we go. I hope we can create a focused and in-depth discussion about the Conspiracy against love and how it's perpetuated by religion and the bible. If you have things to add to the discussion such as guiding questions and comments like the ones above please add them!

Thanks,

00ps

EDIT: I see you have added a link to Luthers Large online...I still would like a hard back though Thanks for the link.

[edit on 28-2-2005 by 00PS]

Hehe, sorry.

I dont know what questions to ask. These things will be made clear to us all soon hopefully. For those who dont understand then it will no longer matter. I am just glad that there is hope for some of us at least to recognize this conspiracy, if that is the correct word, and fight it. To me it means that all of this hasn't been for nothing.

Your dad could have explained this to you:

Originally posted by 00PS
Question: Is adultery, as defined as marraige outside wedlock, something that occurs only after one has married?

Here you're dealing with an English word that has a very clear definition. Adultery means "Sex with someone that you are NOT married to while you are married."

There's no other definition.

Question: Is pre-marital sex adultry in the eyes of the Christian God?

Only if one of the parties is married. If both are NOT married, then it is "fornication."

Standard definition. Really.

Question: Is adultery contradictory to polygamy?

Depends on how many wives the polygamist is allowed to have. I would judge from the Bible that it has no impact on whether or not people commit adultery (cf David and Bathsheba)

Question: Is adultery actually a man made concept to promote monogamy and one not given by God?

Adultery is a social law that defines who can mate with whom under what circumstances.

Let's call it by a different name, here: "non-sanctioned mating behavior with another person's mate." There can be rules and punishments for this behavior (in some societies the man will be killed) no matter what kind of religion the group has (no religion, shamanism, etc, etc._

Question: Biblical charachters were polygamous and holy men, does that not mean marraige is not specifically a monogamouos union?

Just one of many contradictory things about the Bible.

As far Christianity is concerned any sexual act out side of an already existing marital union is adultery. As to how many marital unions one can have is answered differently by different sects of Christianity.

As to the question if pre marital sex is adultery this varies not really as much from sect to sect. Rather it varies from the religious interruption of individual religious representatives or representative group. Meaning that each priest, minister, preacher or church might have different belief. However it is almost universal to think of it as a sin of one kind or other.


As to the question of God intending for us to be monogamies. Is based totally on individual faith. I personally believe that upon entering a marriage union one should stay true to that promise. However I also believe that sexual and loving relationships can exist out side of marriage and these relationships do not have to be monogamies as long as both partners are aware of this fact.

Thanks for the Reply Byrd!

Here is one thing that I have had problems with talking to people of the faith. Abstinance (sorry if I spell it wrong, its 5:50 and I haven't gone to sleep yet tonight, err today) is the saving of your virginity until you are married.

If you we look at adultry as sex out of wedlock then sex before marriage can be a form of adultry too would it not be?

This is not my view, this is a question to better understand common views. I see the definitions you have added to the conversation Byrd and I am challenging 2 of them. Adultry as Sex outside of *or before* marraige, not with someone elses partner and second fornification vs adultry. What do you think?

[edit on 28-2-2005 by 00PS]

To enjoy sensuality is a wonderfull experiece. Between man and woman,
it is an expansion of ones being.

When a man and a woman commit to each other and share and grow together, adultery, regardless of law is not an option. Two people committed in love in their hearts wont require any law.

Therefore, if you are in a realtionship, married, per say, and you go and have a relation with another, can you truly say your in love?
And if your not in love, and you go out, is it adultery? I would say no, as long as you communicate this thought to the other who has commited themselves to you.

Pre-Marital sex is normal. Top explore responsibly and to learn some of the pitfalls of relatioships without making major mistakes. But responsible pre-martial sex is another thing.

Laws and conveting regarding marriage are in my opinion for the selfish.
Man made laws for keeping what that man thinks is his. Marriage and relationships are forged at will. It is a willingness of the heart, and not of the pen.

I would encourage anyone who is or who has been in love in their lives to back me up on this. True love is a growth experience like no other. When you wander, its because your not in love. Just be truthfull to your partner as they may indeed love and trust you.

The laws are minutia. The laws dont make your commitment, you do.
Christian or not.

Peace

[edit on 28-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Do what thou will.. Love under will


Is simple...do what you will...if you want to be monogamous..go for it..if you want to be polygamous...go for it....

Todays industrial societies have a lot of free time, and pleasures are much more easily available. The common phrases is "If it feels so good to do it, why is it wrong?" Many people do not understand the concenquences of pre-martial sex. Media, peer pressure, no-fault divorce and what a person personally experiances are defineing what is right and wrong, not the parents or a church.

becasue of the no-fault divorce, and broken homes, kids are being raised with little or no idea what a stable family is like.

Media commonly protrays one-night stands and even casuel sex as the norm.

The ease and use of abortion as birth control

The common percetion that STD only happen to Gays, drug users, poor people, and 3rd world countires.

Parents are more concerned about keeping up with the Jones' they they use Money and material goods to keep thier kids happy.

From the Chrisitan veiwpoint every one of those has to do with a sin. Yet many, hardly ever think any of them is a sin

This Gnostic Definition of Adultry makes sense:

Adultery

"Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse."

In Universal Gnosticism, it is understood that the act of sexual union forges a psychic and karmic bond: a marriage. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Genesis 2:24) Therefore, our first sexual connection becomes our first marriage; and when we connect with another person, we commit adultery, unless this act is in accordance with the Will of the Inner Being.

Going further, we understand from Jesus of Nazreth that adultery is also commited in the heart, simply by looking upon another person in a lustful way. So in synthesis, we are all adulterers, until the moment when lust has been completely removed from our psyche.

Peace

Originally posted by Tamahu
adultery is also commited in the heart, simply by looking upon another person in a lustful way.

Thank you Tamahu...That is what I also feel but I have no proof to back it up. I was hoping more people would join in the discussion, it seems as of yet we have had many people give conflicitng definitions and thats about it. It's interesting you give a gnostic perspective. Why is that?

this was probably already answered by someone, but it is 3:30 and i need to go to bed so i am gonna quickly tell you that Jesus says that it is adultery to even lust after another woman only in thought. Once you have sex with one person you two become one, and if you dont stay together and you end up having sex with someone else, that is adultery. However, you can renew yourself through Christ.

Again, this was probably explained previously, and using direct quotes from the bible, but i am tired so i dont feel like doing it so i guess you will just have to take my word on it.

Oh, and i guess Sex before wedlock would be considered adultery as well (i scrolled up a little and read some stuff), because Jesus tells us to follow the laws of the land, in his case it was the laws of Rome, and i dont know, i guess since we define marraige as only happening through the church or courts than it must be precieved that way in heaven too. So, having sex before you are legally married would be considered adultery, even if your commited in a spiritual sense to each other.

[edit on 1-3-2005 by Ryanp5555]

gouge it out." or else face eternal consequence, says Jesus (Matt 5:29). Ouch! Really? Well, better a little pain now than much pain everlasting. Is it easy? No, of course not. Will man/woman sin? Yep. Again and again but self discipline is key according to Galatians and you can temper yourself away from infractions to a great degree.

When you were a child, you acted like a child.
When you were single, you acted single.
Now your married? Time to act like you're married. You have your prize, cherish her/him.

THERE IS HOPE! The good news is it doesn't matter what you used to do, what you used to be, sin can be forgiven. Put your past behind you and follow Him.

Jehosephat, great post!
Marge too, excellent practical answer

[edit on 1-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Byrd
...English ...has a very clear definition. Adultery [IS] "Sex with someone that you are NOT married to while you are married."
There's no other definition.

Wrong.

The word's meaning is dynamic depending on what and which culture or people that is being dealt with in it's regards.

Adultery: from Hebrew na'aph, "woman that breaketh wedlock"

Source
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Originally posted by Byrd
"non-sanctioned mating behavior with another person's mate."

Now THIS should be it's DEFINITION!