How would a micronuke work (and be undetectable)?

Every once in a while somebody, usually a rabid anti-Semite waving a joevialls link, claims that somebody has used a micro-nuke on somebody else. These stories are often believed at first by well-meaning and inquisitive people who simply don't appreciate the power of conventional explosives (which is understandable because the average Joe doesn't see too many explosions from day to day). These threads usually come to an abrupt halt when somebody mentions that there has been no sign of trouble from Geiger counters or some other such hole in the story. Let's just assume for a minute that there actually were "micro-nukes" though- really really really low-yield nukes which would completely rip just one building to smithereens and not leave the area radioactive.

How would such a weapon most likely function? Pure fusion (deuterium/tritium perhaps?)? Advanced fission weapons, perhaps "salted bombs" having radically altered fallout characteristics? Red Mercury bomb (please specify what kind of "red mercury" bomb because its a vague term with several possible explanations, including deuterium/tritium fusion created by special properties of a certain mercury compound). Or maybe there is some other possibility which I have not considered here?

Micro nukes have been alleged in cases from 9/11 to Bali to the Hariri assassination, and if they're going to be continuously alleged here, we may as well try to have a well discussed and reasoned consensus on what they are.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Every once in a while somebody, usually a rabid anti-Semite waving a joevialls link, claims that somebody has used a micro-nuke on somebody else.

Wow. Simply WOW. I'd like to point out two facts you can't seem to account for. 1. Not all people who question or implicate Jews in crimes are anti-semitic, sometimes they just care about justice. 2. There is a BIG, BIG difference between those who rail against Zionists (Mr. Vialls) and those who hate all Jews (KKK, Neo Nazis, etc.). Zionism is a twisted belief, and should be shunned by sensible people, the Babylonian Talmud is a work of pure mania, and if you took the time to read up on what you defend you would understand what I'm talking about. Judaism, and people of Jewish descent, are no more malignant than any other religion/group. Just for that comment, I'm going to drop a bunch of Vials links later on. He says time and time again he has nothing against Jews, only Zionists, but apparently he's speaking a different language...

Originally posted by The Vagabond
These stories are often believed at first by well-meaning and inquisitive people who simply don't appreciate the power of conventional explosives (which is understandable because the average Joe doesn't see too many explosions from day to day).

I am going to ask you a question, and I don't want you to take it the wrong way, I just need some perspective on where you're coming from. Do you REALLY know the power of conventional explosives, or are you just talking from your nethers? I think there are plenty of people who REALLY know the power of conventional explosives on this board, and unfortunately for you, I'm one of them.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Micro nukes have been alleged in cases from 9/11 to Bali to the Hariri assassination, and if they're going to be continuously alleged here, we may as well try to have a well discussed and reasoned consensus on what they are.

I agree 100%.

For the record, I think the nukes we're seeing the most of, the Dimona nukes, use a very small, very efficient Plutonium core. The Russians also have Micronized Nuclear devices, as does the USA and potentially several other countries. It's not fiction, but it is hard to believe for some. But you know what they say about life...

Here are some links to those blasts attributed (by the lovable Mr. Vials) to Micro Nukes for those who don't know what Vagabond is talking about.
www.vialls.com...

www.vialls.com...

www.vialls.com...
I discussed the Beirut blast that killed Hariri in some detail on another thread, see the link below.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Check out my chunk of info on conventional explosives and the concept of a cratering charge.

More Vials coming at ya'! (It's your own fault. I'm doing this for your own good. Why do you make me hurt you? This hurts me more than it hurts you..and so on. )

www.vialls.com...

www.vialls.com...

www.vialls.com...

Have you had enough?

homepage.ntlworld.com...

www.vialls.com...

That about does it. Now that I've got everybody who hates Joe Vialls loading up their flames to use on me, hows about a little background?

www.globalsecurity.org...
This is the source of the Israeli Micro Nukes.

www.nonviolence.org...
A picture of the lathe used to turn small amounts of Plutonium into spheres, taken by Vanunu.

www.nonviolence.org...
Picture of a production model of the core of a nuclear weapon (normal sized).

Here's the problem that Israel was facing. They built this nifty reactor, and some attendant equipment, but because everything had to be done in secret, they never had the capability to start a production line for nuclear weapons. They didn't have enough material to make more than a few bombs. Their solution was to make the bombs smaller, much smaller. A tactical nuke is more effective than 5000 lbs of conventional explosives, yet it fits in a tea kettle and is completely stable until detonation.

If nearly all of the fissile material is consumed in the initial chain reaction, there will be very little dirty shrapnel. All that's left is a burst of Gamma that leaves some Alpha residue, and of course heat and light.

The exact technology surrounding their weapons program is top secret. All evidence is anecdotal. The best evidence is at the crime scene, and we can get into that if you want, on a case by case basis.

There, that 'bout does it.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Wow. Simply WOW. I'd like to point out two facts you can't seem to account for. 1. Not all people who question or implicate Jews in crimes are anti-semitic, sometimes they just care about justice. 2. There is a BIG, BIG difference between those who rail against Zionists (Mr. Vialls) and those who hate all Jews (KKK, Neo Nazis, etc.).

In the interest of civility I'll qualify my statements. We often find ourselves faced with ATS members who post threads using links from Mr. Vialls and other sources accusing Israel of crimes which it may or may not have comitted, and often alleging that they did so my needlessly elaborate means, often simply for the sake of working nuclear weapons into the discussion because it makes Israel seem al the more evil. These members instigate threads calling for the destruction of Israel, talking about "Israel being transformed into heat and light by Russian SS-N-22s" etc come across as antisemetic because they are not simply talking about a halt to the settling of Palestinian territory but about the extinction of a nation and a people through nuclear war. I'd prefer not to get dirty be throwing around the names of these people, but I've got two specific ATS members in mind who have made a hobby of discussing the destruction of Israel and America whenever possible, sometimes using accussations of Israeli micro-nuke use to claim that Israel is secretly controlling or misleading America to an AMAZING extent.

Zionism is a twisted belief, and should be shunned by sensible people, the Babylonian Talmud is a work of pure mania, and if you took the time to read up on what you defend you would understand what I'm talking about.

I'm not even particularly sure what the Talmud is, and I'm not defending it. I'm saying that obviousl questions are raised about a persons morals when he rants, raves, and delights at the idea of a nuclear war (referring to certain ATS members, not Vialls).

Originally posted by The Vagabond
These stories are often believed at first by well-meaning and inquisitive people who simply don't appreciate the power of conventional explosives (which is understandable because the average Joe doesn't see too many explosions from day to day).

I am going to ask you a question, and I don't want you to take it the wrong way, I just need some perspective on where you're coming from. Do you REALLY know the power of conventional explosives, or are you just talking from your nethers?

Although I am not a chemist or bomb technician I have considerably more experience with explosives than the average person because I have personally operated and/or witnessed the live operation of all of the following: hand grenades, 40mm grenades (M203), Claymore mines, and AT-4 anti-tank rockets.
Once you have held fired an extremely lightweight weapon which thunders the way an AT-4 does, and watched what it does to an armored target, you have a newfound respect for what even a small application of exposives can do.
Most people have never seen anything better than a firecracker blow up. I've held enough power in one arm to knock out a tank. Being able to take that and scale it up mentally leaves me with no doubt that it doesn't take a nuke to accomplish the feats that truck bombs have been known to accomplish. I mention truckbombs because in the preamble to my post I was specifcally remembering a thread months ago where somebody claimed a truck bomb couldn't have taken out the Murrah building.

I think there are plenty of people who REALLY know the power of conventional explosives on this board, and unfortunately for you, I'm one of them.

Glad to have you here. Now I hope you're not planning to completely shatter those claimed credentials by alleging that micro-nukes are the only explanation for attacks which are perfectly explainable by conventional explosives.

For the record, I think the nukes we're seeing the most of, the Dimona nukes, use a very small, very efficient Plutonium core. The Russians also have Micronized Nuclear devices, as does the USA and potentially several other countries. It's not fiction, but it is hard to believe for some. But you know what they say about life...

I'm aware of the the existence of special atomic demolition munitions and "davey crocket". My main concern is how a micronuke would somehow not be traceable by Gieger counter. When somebody claims micronuke I can't help wondering why nobody doesn't whip out a Gieger counter and prove it.

If nearly all of the fissile material is consumed in the initial chain reaction, there will be very little dirty shrapnel. All that's left is a burst of Gamma that leaves some Alpha residue, and of course heat and light.

The exact technology surrounding their weapons program is top secret. All evidence is anecdotal. The best evidence is at the crime scene, and we can get into that if you want, on a case by case basis.

There, that 'bout does it.

This is exactly the part I want to get into. To hell with the arguement over Vialls and Zionism/Antisemitism and whatever. The fact is that we do have members on ATS who think it would be a good idea for somebody to nuke Israel, and they tend ot say it outloud when the micronuke issue comes up.
The really interesting part though is the evidence at the scene of the crime if any.
What sort of evidence would a micro-nuke leave if any, and theoretically speaking what sort of design would be necessary for that. You can only get so efficient afterall (i assume).

[edit on 27-2-2005 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I think there are plenty of people who REALLY know the power of conventional explosives on this board, and unfortunately for you, I'm one of them.

Umm ok, yeah right. You don't seem to be that well informed for someone claiming to know the power of HE. It is almost laughable when people claim to be experts in certain things, but obviously aren't.
Have you ever even handled explosives ?

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I think there are plenty of people who REALLY know the power of conventional explosives on this board, and unfortunately for you, I'm one of them.

Umm ok, yeah right. You don't seem to be that well informed for someone claiming to know the power of HE. It is almost laughable when people claim to be experts in certain things, but obviously aren't.
Have you ever even handled explosives ?

Let's keep this civil amigo. This sounds like it might be carried over from another thread because although Wyred hasn't gone into extensive details yet he hasn't said anything to indicate that he lacks whatever knowledge he specifically claims to have.

I didn't care much for the "unfortunately for me" part, but other than that I'd say wyred deserves the benefit of the doubt so far.

rogue1
Read the link I posted to the thread regarding the Hariri assasination, then get back to me, with or without attitude, your decision, and we'll take it from there, k?

Vagabond
There is a tremendous amount of hate in the world, for Zionists, for Arabs of all stripes, for blacks and Indians and Mexicans and you name it. It's upsetting to a certain degree, but par for the course by any standard. The human race has been this way for a very long time. Every time it looks like we're close to fixing our interactions...

Your question is a good one, and if you really want to restrict the conversation to the HARD facts, that's equally good. Vials is light on links and long on drama, but aside from his very obvious bias I've found no fault whatsoever in his blast analysis of Bali, Jakarta Embassy, and N. Korea. His work is highly politicized, and turns many off because of it. I think he strives to reach the extremist audience, which is a little disturbing, but his facts have so far held up.

I assume you (vagabond) know a fair bit about nuclear weapons, but for the sake of the other readers...a sort of 'Nukes for Dummies' primer.
people.howstuffworks.com...

Witnesses described a "white hot flash." There are a number of bodies entirely missing; conventional weapons don't vaporize that many bodies. The explosions we're talking about detonated in a rising cone shape, often leaving nearby people unharmed! The craters are impressive..again, see my post on Hariri's assassination. And then there is the matter of the patises framed in each of these instances. There are many glaring inconsistencies if you want to talk about them.

Let's talk about how the nuke leaves its trace. I think Fatman had an efficiency of 17% using a uranium 235 shell with a plutonium 239 core surrounded by explosives. The principal problem is the interior blast envelope develops before the chain reaction has reached the outer layers. A large percentage of the radioactive material is swept away and dispersed before it can react. This creates a shrapnel field of highly radioactive material, sometimes many km square, and downwind great distances (sometimes).

Later bombs refined the construction methods, placing plutonium wedges around a berylium core, surrounded by explosives and encased in U 235. Better, but nowhere near perfect. This is the bomb likely to be 'salted' as you said earlier, if I'm not mistaken. As far as I know, that tech was officialy dropped some time ago, and never officialy reopened. That doesn't mean it isn't still alive and well, drawing 'black' funds.

Still later fusion bombs were developed to use fission bombs as the trigger, thereby eliminating the problems with efficiency. The fusion has a hard time gettting going, but once you start it, the horse does the work for you so to speak. When the fission bomb implodes, it releases an intense burst of X rays, these set off the fusion reaction.

Here's a list of US official nukes, SADM is on the list. (ADM is Atomic Demolitions Munitions)
nuclearweaponarchive.org...

In 1988 a nuclear weapon with .01 kiloton explosive power weighed about 170 lbs. How much did cell phones weigh in 1988? About 5 pounds, loaded? What are they now? 5 ounces, and the size of your palm (so damn small you have to use silk wrapped tweezers to hold them to your ear, and then when you talk into them you have to be careful not to inhale too deeply..)

Still, the micro nuke would have to overcome several technical challenges, not the least of which would be to induce criticality in such a small sphere of plutonium. It would have to be bombarded with many, many 'bullets' from many directions (even some large spheres require 90+ point mirrored implosion to insure criticality). The chance of a single neutron causing criticality is relatively high (1 in 5 refractions is a 'hit' or a 'grab') in a large chunk of fissile material, not so great in a small chunk.

A slightly more complicated explanation of some of the critical elements.
nuclearweaponarchive.org...

We don't know too much about these weapons, other than what we can gather from the evidence. I'm sure I'm missing something, and this is with an edit!

Here' s a blast analysis from Bali as produced by this website.
www.cuttingedge.org...

1) According the Russian-American symposium article on low yield page 158-159, "a low yield nuke of .02 would have a high temp kill zone of a 100 meters or less, 330 feet or less." [books.nap.edu...]

This jibes with the news reports that the kill zone in the Bali Blast was in the first 200-300 feet or so.

2) As the above article indicates, the Russian-American symposium participants used the data on Hiroshima and Nagaski bombs which is included in tables on the Nuclear Factoids page from the Brookings Institute. [www.tinyvital.com...]

In order to extrapolate the data you have to find proportions, ratios and cube roots of the yield. The cube root of .02 is .125996 ; if you use the proportions of 100 and 1000 respectively you can arrive at the right numbers ie. the 5' x 13' crater, half kilometre to kilometer damage, and reports shock wave up to 2 kilometers.


And you mentioned the Davy Crockett?
www.brook.edu...

I'm going to catch my breath and see if anyone read the other material I posted. By the way, vagabond, when I said "unfortunately for you, I'm one of them" I forgot to emote. It was supposed to be humorous since I tend to get long winded when talking about things that go boom.

[edit on 28-2-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Any nuclear weapon no matter how small will leave radiation from a ground burst.
Also, if this was an nuclear detonation, then surely some people would have had their retinas burnt from the detonation. Oh yeah with regards to Bali, how come so much HE residue was found ? This would have been vaporised if it was a nuclear detonation.
Not to mention of course that a nuclear detonation relaeses heat messured in millions of degrees not thousands as in conventional explosives. This heat alone would have caused far more widespread fires than just in the 2 nightclubs in Bali. These night clubs aren't big, I've been there. The damaged area would easily have been caused by a 200-300kg bomb.

rogue1
What is your source for HE being littered around Bali? I was under the impression the area was dusted in dish powder, detergent. I'm being serious FYI.

You are right, any nuclear weapon will leave radiation from a ground burst, you are absolutely right. What's at issue is the rate of decay, I believe we've proven the more efficient the bomb, the less radiation, and in general the size of the bomb (in tonnes) is directly proportionate to the amount of residue it will leave. The big Megatons, 15-25 muthas, leave a HELL of a cloud, and are essentially weapons of last resort because of the enormous amount of radioactive material they cast off, especially iodine.

You mention burns, the victims WERE burned all to hell, burns the likes of which a local burn specialist said he'd never seen. If one looked at the flash directly, it would be blinding. As I understand it, the people who saw the blast and survived were in two places, far enough away that the light was soaked by surrounding buildings, and on the other side of the parking structure which served to filter the light.

The pictures of the street in Bali clearly show the devestation, including the damage to concrete reinforced with rebar some 50 feet away! To strip concrete from rebar at 50 feet...That takes a TREMENDOUS amount of force, no conventional explosive could have sufficed.

Also, take note, if the uranium shell of a nuclear bomb was removed, and the bomb was able to detonate without it, there would be very little residual radiation, only Alpha. Commonly used geiger counters don't detect for Alpha, so it's no wonder they didn't pick anything up. How exactly the terrorists did away with the Uranium reflector is still up for debate.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
rogue1
What is your source for HE being littered around Bali? I was under the impression the area was dusted in dish powder, detergent. I'm being serious FYI.

It was all over the news here our Federal Police were the ones doing the forensics for Bali.

You mention burns, the victims WERE burned all to hell, burns the likes of which a local burn specialist said he'd never seen. If one looked at the flash directly, it would be blinding. As I understand it, the people who saw the blast and survived were in two places, far enough away that the light was soaked by surrounding buildings, and on the other side of the parking structure which served to filter the light.

The burns were typical 3rd degree burns from the fire. There were no 4,5 or 6th degree burns reported on any of the deceased, whioch could be expected from a nuclear detonation.
There were many people who survived in both nightclubs, most people were trapped and were killed by the fire as both nightclubs were mostly made of wood.

The pictures of the street in Bali clearly show the devestation, including the damage to concrete reinforced with rebar some 50 feet away! To strip concrete from rebar at 50 feet...That takes a TREMENDOUS amount of force, no conventional explosive could have sufficed.

Ah yes the famous rebar picture. Well my question to you is why wasn't everything else around the rebar obliterated ? if it were a nuclear detonation. There is absolutely no proof of high temperature melting of any of the structures, which would have to happen with a nuclear detonation.

Is there such a thing as 4th 5th and 6th degree burns? I've never heard of such a burn type...?

rogue
BTW, thanks for the u2u, that was an interesting read. In answer to your post:

I'd much rather see links to the information than trust your word it was on television. I myself don't have a television, and I don't live in Australia, so... The Australians may have had a major role in any cover up, they were the ones dumping evidence in the ocean after all. Was that information printed anywhere to your knowledge? The story surrounding the materials used in Bali was it's own conspiracy, it changed 4 or 5 times! Are you quoting the final determination, or one of the early guesses?

I assume you saw video of the patsie for the crime, the retarded motorcycle mechanic? Did you watch him show us all how he mixed perchlorate crystals and black powder? LOL That was truly awe inspiring, to see that grinning idiot man child show us all the most efficient way to BLOW ONESELF UP.

The reason 4th, 5th, and 6th degree burns were not reported is probably because doctors stopped using that burn scale centuries ago. The modern burn scale only has three levels of severity, and sometimes doctors invoke the old scale in an anecdotal fashion, is it still used by Australians? Us Americans only have three types of burns, low, medium, high. The victims from Bali were undoubtedly 3rd degree. Again, where are you getting your information from? Do you have a link with pictures? All the ones I've seen indicate radiation burns.

If you examine the blast arc, you'll notice it points up into the sky for the most part. Sub Surface detonations, and that's what this most certainly was, have very easily identifiable blast characteristics. As to your question about heat melting the parking structure, the heat created alone is not sufficient to melt concrete. Concrete is so widely used because of it's heat sink properties. When you factor in the blast wave, with its attendant overpressure, you have a force capable of stripping concrete..but only in the blast cone. That's why only one corner of the parking structure was affected.

Originally posted by UnMature
Is there such a thing as 4th 5th and 6th degree burns? I've never heard of such a burn type...?

This site explains the degree of burns from 1-4.

www.burn-victim-center.com...
www.chm.bris.ac.uk...


WyrdeOne, yup we still use the 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc burn scale, as do most western countries. Low, medium and high wouldn't be a type of dumming down would it for the US medical profession ?

Originally posted by rogue1
WyrdeOne, yup we still use the 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc burn scale, as do most western countries. Low, medium and high wouldn't be a type of dumming down would it for the US medical profession ?

I was just joking about low, medium, high. The three tier scale is the most accepted, sometimes, like I said, a fourth measurement is used by doctors discussing severe cases, but I don't think it's accepted jargon anymore. I'm willing to be corrected, but my links disagree with yours...

www.cprpgh.fanspace.com...

www.siu.edu...

www.traumaburn.org...

Battle of the Links, Sunday, Sunday, Sunday! er...no wait..Monday, Monday, Monday!!

This is a nother view of the micro bomb www.rumormillnews.com...

[edit on 28-2-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Excellent link SiberianTiger. That's by far the best picture of the crater, and it shows accurately the depth and surrounding debris. The explanation they provide; that the evidence points to buried or air dropped munitions, concurs with what I said in earlier threads.

This information should be more widely available, why isn't it? Is there an explanation from the mainstream media as to why they ignore important evidence? No. They don't need to explain themselves, because they've got money. That's what they think anyway.

Again, excellent link!

I would like a link to the SECURITY CAMERA VIDEO of the Bali blast

The world's first underground nuclear test had been fired in the previous NTS series (Plumbbob Ranier), and this series introduced underground testing as a routine procedure. The intention was to reduce the fallout effects of the testing, which were raising great concern, but the "underground" testing procedures were still relatively primitive. Many of these shots were conducted in "unstemmed" holes, that is, holes not back-filled and sealed prior to testing. These shots were called "roman candles" since the incandescent gas from the fireball was ejected as a jet from the mouth of the shaft. Obviously fallout containment was much less than perfect, but most of the fission product was nonetheless deposited in the shaft instead of escaping, and the radiation that did escape was not lofted so that it could travel far downwind. Hardtack Phase II still released some 3,140 kilocuries of radioiodine (I-131) into the atmosphere (about equal to the Trinity test), only ~5% as much as the previous test series (Plumbbob). This radiation also did not nearly spread as far, only about one-millionth as much radiation exposure occurred to civilians. The total civilian radiation exposures was a mere 160 person-rads of thyroid tissue exposure. The odds are about 20-1 against this producing even one additional cancer case. Chart of fallout exposures from "Hardtack Phase II" (51 K, 539x577). From National Cancer Institute Study Estimating Thyroid Doses of I-131 Received by Americans From Nevada Atmospheric Nuclear Bomb Test, 1997. To go to the National Cancer Institute and get the full report, click here.

nuclearweaponarchive.org...

that is how

The years rolled by and top-secret projects were initiated in America and Israel to replace the old SADM with its overly heavy weight and excess radioactivity, culminating in the successful development and testing at Dimona during 1981 of the “new” micro nuclear device. Using advanced nuclear physics, the scientists found a way of detonating the new “suitcase” bomb without the use of a Uranium 238 reflector, and further refined the Plutonium 239 in its core to 99.78%. These measures resulted in a weapon considerably smaller and lighter than SADM, which also had another enormous advantage. The new Dimona micro nuke was the very first critical weapon that could be used in “stealth” mode. Gone was the dirty Uranium 238 reflector, and up went the purity of the smaller Plutonium 239 core. You see, Plutonium emits only alpha radiation, which for all practical purposes is “invisible” to a standard Geiger counter. If you do not believe me then ask the American Environmental Protection Agency, whose staff will confirm this. In direct contrast with its more deadly cousins beta and gamma, alpha can travel only a few feet and is incapable of penetrating human skin. If you can afford an incredibly expensive and highly specialized Muller tube or similar, you may be able to detect tiny amounts of alpha directly outside the Sari Club, though you will more than likely be defeated in this quest by the Bali environment. Remember that this micro nuke was a tiny weapon in terms of critical mass, with its limited number of particles distributed over a very wide area. You will have to be within five feet to detect a single particle, and most may have already washed away. Bali lies in the Monsoon Belt with frequent heavy showers, and the Sari Club is located less than 200 yards away from the surf at Kuta Beach, which is where the monsoon drains in Kuta main street flow into the ocean. One week on from the blast, detection may already be too late. Though the alpha particles cannot penetrate the skin, such radiation is extremely hazardous if inhaled or ingested, because Plutonium is the most toxic substance known to man. If you breathed in a mouthful immediately after the blast you would be dead in less than an hour, perhaps within minutes. If instead you breathed in a single microgram, you might last for as few months. Anything in-between is on a sliding scale

loveforlife.com.au...

has been done already