where do you draw the line at making your kids do something they dont want to do?

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

In my experience (with people I've met who attended it), Berklee is an empty bucket as a music school. I have no idea (nor do any of the other musicians I work with) why anyone has the impression that this place is a good music school.

I'm talking about Colleges of Music, where you get a hearty, balanced, yet also specialized degree in music, whether it's Music Education (band directors, choir and orchestra directors), Music Performance (you specialize on your one instrument; this degree isn't practical unless you are REALLY good and make the most of the degree by doing everything balls out; most folks who get performance degrees end up going back and getting what they need to fill out a music Ed degree because they don't want to spend years of their life in a practice room for 6 or more hours a day), Composition, Music Theory, Music History, or Musicology. If your school doesn't offer all of these degrees, don't go there. So I'm talking about Colleges of Music within a university.

The best in the US are the University of North Texas, U of Illinois, and Michigan. The one I went to is of course the best, in my opinion. The job I have and had is incredibly difficult to get; extremely competitive auditions by invitation only, and there are only a small number of positions. Yet a large percentage of the positions are taken by alums from my school. 😊. So I can say for sure that folks who graduate from my school are likely to be able to win elite positions. The band I was in at my school (classical wind symphony) would make two CD's a year. One year we won a Grammy for one of them, so there's that, too. They still make the recordings every year but they're under a different label now (when I was there it was Klavier).

So those three cant be beat. There are some smaller places like Ithica that has a good balanced and rigorous degree program that has put out some phenomenal players the last twenty years, and Arizona State and U of Florida have put out some good players as well.

It can be hard to be a small fish in a huge pond (there were 3,000 music majors when i was getting my Bachelor's), but if a person can use that to make themselves better and eventually rise to the top of all of those phenomenal players, they'll be unstoppable.

What's your opinion on the best music school? When you've asked people the question over the years, what kind of answers so you get? What kind of degree are you thinking of when you say "Music School," and what type of musician do you work with (singers, instrumentalists, classical, jazz, etc).

originally posted by: Nyiah
a reply to: KansasGirl

You were doing great until the last paragraph. Totally unnecessary, and IMO, beneath a "music professional" by leaps and bounds. It comes off as the stereotypical snotty musician attitude most poke fun at.

There is also an alternative that hasn't been suggested. Logically, I'd say letting them literally PLAY with the instrument is probably the best intro you can give, free exploration of it for a while versus diving head first into lessons. It might sound like a dying cat with it's tail slammed in a door for a bit, but a little kiddie DIY time before lessons might strengthen interest.

Which last paragraph was unnecessary? I've done like three long posts to TST in this thread. If you're referencing the pot thing, there's a back-story on that one between TST and me from another thread. And if that's the paragraph you're saying is unnecessary and snooty, I disagree. I know plenty of kids who, if they knew their parents were risking their jobs by continuing to smoke pot when they get randomly tested, wouldn't respect their folks on that issue. If you mean snooty like some stereotype of a classical musician who is all uptight, etc, you've got the wrong end of the stick there regarding me- I've detailed to TST how I'm an alcoholic, a drunk, of the worst kind, and I lost a dream job becUse of it, years and years ago. I'm definitely not "snooty" on that subject, if that's what you mean. But whatever you meant, poke away 😊

What do you mean by "letting them PLAY with the instrument" before diving head first into lessons? Play with, meaning....?? And do you mean any instrument in general, or are you thinkjng of a specific set of instruments? What age are you envisioning, as well, in your scenario? Curious what you see happening in your scenario. I didn't actually take lessons on my instrument until I was a junior in high school, and that was only at a music camp over the summer, so not everyone has to take lessons to get good. But there are some things to really think about that most people don't consider when having their kids start an instrument. Have you ever played an instrument, or did any of your kids?

originally posted by: KansasGirl
a reply to: randomtangentsrme

In my experience (with people I've met who attended it), Berklee is an empty bucket as a music school. I have no idea (nor do any of the other musicians I work with) why anyone has the impression that this place is a good music school.

I'm talking about Colleges of Music, where you get a hearty, balanced, yet also specialized degree in music, whether it's Music Education (band directors, choir and orchestra directors), Music Performance (you specialize on your one instrument; this degree isn't practical unless you are REALLY good and make the most of the degree by doing everything balls out; most folks who get performance degrees end up going back and getting what they need to fill out a music Ed degree because they don't want to spend years of their life in a practice room for 6 or more hours a day), Composition, Music Theory, Music History, or Musicology. If your school doesn't offer all of these degrees, don't go there. So I'm talking about Colleges of Music within a university.

The best in the US are the University of North Texas, U of Illinois, and Michigan. The one I went to is of course the best, in my opinion. The job I have and had is incredibly difficult to get; extremely competitive auditions by invitation only, and there are only a small number of positions. Yet a large percentage of the positions are taken by alums from my school. 😊. So I can say for sure that folks who graduate from my school are likely to be able to win elite positions. The band I was in at my school (classical wind symphony) would make two CD's a year. One year we won a Grammy for one of them, so there's that, too. They still make the recordings every year but they're under a different label now (when I was there it was Klavier).

So those three cant be beat. There are some smaller places like Ithica that has a good balanced and rigorous degree program that has put out some phenomenal players the last twenty years, and Arizona State and U of Florida have put out some good players as well.

It can be hard to be a small fish in a huge pond (there were 3,000 music majors when i was getting my Bachelor's), but if a person can use that to make themselves better and eventually rise to the top of all of those phenomenal players, they'll be unstoppable.

What's your opinion on the best music school? When you've asked people the question over the years, what kind of answers so you get? What kind of degree are you thinking of when you say "Music School," and what type of musician do you work with (singers, instrumentalists, classical, jazz, etc).

I'm a jazz bum. The best degree is doing it. School dosn't prepare you for reality these days.
I went to school for theater. Backstage specific.

You are certainly a classically trained musician. I've had a pleasure in being a production manager involving orchestras over the last 20 plus years. Some local, and some international.

Berklee is a contemporary school. I understand why you do not understand it. In it's title it is a College of Music. From my interactions with their graduates, I have seen nothing amiss from their training. In fact, from the two I most often deal with they conduct better than the conductors I've worked with closely.

"It can be hard to be a small fish in a huge pond."
I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement. But I think you need to think about it a bit deeper. Said with all respect. I enjoy you and the majority of your posts.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Geesh. Parenting can be hard, but how about just not being a jerk. How about this. Is it for their physical or mental health? Their education? No? Dont make them do it. If you're itching so badly to live vicariously through a six year old, maybe get yourself back up to speed and involve her? That you want to force a child to pursue something you gave up on is ridiculous... and there is no compromise in your scenario. You still get exactly want you want unless she "fails." She doesnt NEED a teacher. You ARE the teacher. You teach by example. Pick up your instrument of choice and practice, and involve her if at all possible. Pawning her off on someone else to inevitably lose interest or fail at something you gave up is hypocritcal and will probably result in false criticism of the teacher. You know, like in school how parents never tried at math, and blame teachers for their kids shortcomings.

a reply to: TinySickTears
I forced/coerced my son to try lots of things, my mantra was try and see if you like it, if you don't then you can stop, but try it.

He settled for rugby aged 6, he's 21 now and plays for our town's senior team.
A kid has to find what they enjoy because that will be what they will succeed at best.

Good luck with the music, introduce her to lots of things and let her find what she likes. Insist she tries though just don't force her to continue if she doesn't like it.

a reply to: TinySickTears

If you posted at thread that wasn't just a question or an observation or a question about something you could answer yourself in about 30 seconds. Your threads aren't threads, their just you telling all of us were dicks. By the way...a good parent don't ask the likes of a message board for help raising their kids...especially a damn conspiracy theory site. So, instead of buying yet another prison tat for yourself.....how about a book on being a quality parent to your child so you don't have to waste our time with your parenting questions. Question ? Did you even go to school ? Or were you home schooled ? Cause if you were home schooled....please don't do the same to your kid. Don't ever force your kid to do anything THEY don't want to do. My advice and I'm sticking with it. And for all that's right...capitalize your damn sentences and we may take you sorta kinda serious.

originally posted by: openyourmind1262
capitalize your damn sentences and we may take you sorta kinda serious.

Learn what paragraphs are and I'd take you more seriously lol.
Come on dude, have you got some issues with the poster, you seem grumpy?

a reply to: TinySickTears
she wants to learn it with you. But the moment you become pushy it will deter her interests. It needs to evolve naturally as a together thing.

and please for the love of God, Ignore this reply absolutely. Just pretend it never appeared. It is unecessary to even dignify this ranting with a response.
͛↓͛↓͛↓͛↓͛↓
a reply to: openyourmind1262

a reply to: openyourmind1262

I call it like I see it.

I just wanted opinions.

And yeah. You're being a dick.

Turn a thread about me asking about music lessons into me having prison tattoos and being a bad parent.

So that's a dick move

Since you had nothing of value to add to the topic why even come in and run your mouth?

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: openyourmind1262
capitalize your damn sentences and we may take you sorta kinda serious.

Learn what paragraphs are and I'd take you more seriously lol.
Come on dude, have you got some issues with the poster, you seem grumpy?

Dude there are like 5 posters here that pop up in my threads just so they can run their little bitch ass mouth and try to take digs at me.

Pretty funny.


It's very clear they have a problem with me and it's fantastic.

I ask a question cause I want other parents opinion and look what it turns into.
They could just not respond.


What else is funny is i have seen these same # bags say they're going to report posts or people for going off topic.

I definitely get under their skin.
Might have to crank it up a notch.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Sounds like you're on the right track--obviously, it shouldn't be forced to the point of making the child hate the activity, but if we as parents never force something, there is an entire world of things out there to which children will not be introduced.

Sometimes we need to be forced into trying things to realize that we may like something.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: TinySickTears

Sounds like you're on the right track--obviously, it shouldn't be forced to the point of making the child hate the activity, but if we as parents never force something, there is an entire world of things out there to which children will not be introduced.

Sometimes we need to be forced into trying things to realize that we may like something.

That's where I am at.

I would never force her to keep at it if she does not like it but like you said.
Just a little nudge. See if she likes it. Give it an honest try.

a reply to: TinySickTears
Haha there are a couple of members who follow me around in threads as well. You ain't nothing on ATS if you haven't got a personal troll or two!

On topic I made my son try loads of things, performance art, football, cricket, military cadets, sailing club, junior beach lifeguards you name it, he stuck with rugby from age 6 and is hoping to get a good pro contract soon...he is a qualified plumber though in case the rugby doesn't make his fortune lol.

Whatever you do, if your child has a better life than you did and is more successful than you then you did your job. I'm pleased to say my son is doing better than I was when I was 21.

a reply to: TinySickTears

I make my kid's do stuff. Over the summer we made my daughter run, A LOT.

We wanted her to lose some extra weight she added over the last winter. It wasn't working by her will alone so we just said EFF it. RUN!

Now she is much healthier and can run for about a mile without stopping.

My wife took over and kept the regimen up after I did the initial kick in the ass.

I didn't want to make her do it since a volunteer is better than a drone. If I had waited she would be MORE scared to run and suffer.

Sometimes you have to get things moving along until later when you can let them reevaluate the situation.

When my son is older I imagine I will have a hard time teaching him what martial arts I know. He is not going to be very happy to suffer with dad. But he will.

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: TinySickTears
she wants to learn it with you. But the moment you become pushy it will deter her interests. It needs to evolve naturally as a together thing.

This is truth.

Whatever she does, you will get better results if you practice with her and take the time to be her parent and mentor, another teacher.

You will have to trust the professional to teach her the deep techniques, but she will be far more likely to be invested and enjoy what she's doing if she feels like you are invested and involved too and care about her success.

I liked sports like softball and basketball growing up because dad took the time to play catch with me, show me how to bat outside of practice and played HORSE with me to help me practice my shots. Similarly, she'll be more likely to want to learn guitar if she feels like you're helping her and playing along with her. It's time with you that really seals the deal.

Just remember that there is a fine line between being invested and supportive and being overbearing. Make sure that you are doing it because *she* wants to and not because *you* want her to.

I practice with my son most mornings, and occasionally, he throws a little bit of attitude, and we take the time to revisit what his goals are. I remind him that I am working with him because *he* said his goal was to earn his black belt, and promised him I would do whatever I could to help him do that which included practicing at home. But I remind him I only work with him at home because *he* needs to do it in order to advance. I'm not forcing him to do it, and we can stop anytime. He almost always buckles down then and wipes out what we're doing.

originally posted by: ketsuko

This is truth.

Whatever she does, you will get better results if you practice with her and take the time to be her parent and mentor, another teacher.

You will have to trust the professional to teach her the deep techniques, but she will be far more likely to be invested and enjoy what she's doing if she feels like you are invested and involved too and care about her success.

for sure
i am very involved

we tried to kind of prime her this summer. we went to oberlin college a lot and saw the orchestra play and some chamber music shows.
just little nudges you know

believe me if she starts playing the hurdy gurdy TST is going to learn how to shred on it

originally posted by: TinySickTears
i'm torn on this one.
my general way of thought is i dont want to make my daughter do something she does not want to do. she is 6 btw.

i dont mean # like homework. brushing your teeth.
none of the # you actually have to do.

more like extracurricular things.

you know like the dad that makes his son play basketball and he does not want to. i dont want to be that guy.

the flip side is i am the parent and i dont need a reason. just do it.
you know?

my daughter loves art. loves music. loves to listen to music i mean.
music all day. all generes.

i played guitar until i got hurt and nothing for a couple years now i dabble in the bass(so does the wife) as well as the ukulele and the jews harp.
mostly i dont touch them anymore but i still study music. the instruments are still around.


anyway i want my daughter to play an instrument.
i dont want to force her to but i would like her to.


in the end if she does not want to then she does not have to but she is 6. she has no interest in messing with the instruments we have laying around.

so i am thinking a compromise of sorts

i dont want to force her cause its not cool and i dont want to put her off.

so i was thinking put the foot down.

agree. dont agree. i think is is important.

next 3 months we are going to take a 30 minute lesson twice a week. we are going to be serious while we are there and try.
after 3 months if she does not want it then we are done.

it is winter and we do # all for the next 4 months so we have the time.

i figure if she goes and gives it an effort and just does not like it then its over. i can live with that. she is still young

but just maybe. maybe we get that awesome teacher that makes it fun and gets it to her in a way that i cant and she likes it and wants to keep going...

that could happen.

im not talking you will become first chair. im just talking learn an instrument.



what do you all think?
i am just curious here cause i really am torn.



half feel like a total dick for entertaining basically making her go if she does not want to.

but im dad and i want it to happen. thats it.

some parents think this or that is important.
i think this is important.

Why not encourage her to choose to become interested in music by actually making it interesting.....lol...and interesting is not a chore....or a task for A Parent.....or schooling.....is a free will choice....wy not show her all of the good things music has given to you over your lifetime so she can relate your current happiness due to music to her potential future happiness if she CHOOSES to learn music.


Man there are some cool interesting things about music that a 6 year old would love....ever seen a kids eyes when a Cobra is sung out of its bag....or when the Pied Piper is dancing along the street playing his instrument.....there are a lot of cool things that will catch her eye....but positive things she can see happening to you are all that really matter.

originally posted by: one4all
..ever seen a kids eyes when a Cobra is sung out of its bag....

no dude. i have not

when i was thinking of things to interest my daughter in music i came up with stupid # like go check out the orchestra and go see the largest collection of pipe organs in the world.

totally didnt think about going to calcutta to catch a cobra show

originally posted by: TinySickTears

originally posted by: one4all
..ever seen a kids eyes when a Cobra is sung out of its bag....

no dude. i have not

when i was thinking of things to interest my daughter in music i came up with stupid # like go check out the orchestra and go see the largest collection of pipe organs in the world.

totally didnt think about going to calcutta to catch a cobra show

Well there you go...what 6 year old wants to do the thing you mentioned....you want to hook your daughter up to a sugar I.V instead of giving her a candy to try......lol...you are going to have to improvise my friend.


Sounds like living vicariously thru a child...raised 2 myself and one was a very successful Tuba player who did play with Orchestras as a guest....one was a short term Ukelele player who made us all laugh so much we knew he wasn't sticking with it....lol....be aware I have now heard the truth from a 30 year old about what really happens at Band Camp....had I known then.....lol...lol.

If you cant make 6 year old interested in music how can you get a kid interested in education or to employment.....lol...your instructions sound good your ideas sound good to us....but to a 6 year old maybe not so much.
I hope your daughter finds the Tuba cool.....lol...you will love that one.....lol....its not like slipping a Harmonica into your shirt pocket before you go to classes.....lol...lugging those sucker around is something else....dont worry if you really love music she will pick up your vibe....if you really think it is some kind of a medicine she will also pick that up and spit it out likely....just saying....good luck...have fun and enjoy these years they truy are gret ones.