Secret Door in Great Sphinx leading to the Hall of Records (Cover up!)

a reply to: Harte

Broaching a hole that way seems the most efficient as it maximizes cutting/abrasion pressure.
Were these holes used to orient and stretch the strands of lime Bast to make rope?

Are there any videos out there showing people actually cutting granite blocks with ancient copper/stone tools? Doing a quick search and i can't find anything convincing, they are all messy attempts that took ALOT of effort and look nothing like the work done by the ancient peoples. Surely if it was so easy there would be tons of people doing it as a hobby today creating nice works of art.

I want to see someone create something like this: out of a block of granite, but they also have to dig the block of granite out themselves with only ancient tools. If our ancestors could do it, we can do it now, we live in a time with kickstarter and where people sit around all day playing Playstation, time and commitment is not a problem. Has that been done? (I honestly don't know) If it hasn't then the Egyptians using copper to create those blocks is just as much as a theory as them using some unidentified tools.

originally posted by: Xabi87
Are there any videos out there showing people actually cutting granite blocks with ancient copper/stone tools? Doing a quick search and i can't find anything convincing, they are all messy attempts that took ALOT of effort and look nothing like the work done by the ancient peoples. Surely if it was so easy there would be tons of people doing it as a hobby today creating nice works of art.

Where has anyone said it was easy?
There is video out there of the cut in the link I gave being made. It's not gonna be under BBC Horizons or PBS Nova though because of copyrighting. I've seen it in another documentary. Obviously they must have licensed it.

Here's a vid of Stocks doing it another time.
link to vid

Here's a guy grinding granite by hand at Aswan.
link to vid

Harte

Sorry, that IS the same cut being made. Probably won't be on youtube for long.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

To me, the whole theory that they made those cuts with copper tools is just insane and it seems impossible. Do you not think it's possible that they did have other tools or methods that we just haven't discovered yet? I don't think that's an extreme theory like, there are plenty of places still to dig around the world.

Whatever they used to cut those stones had to be some extremely specialized equipment (not necessarily powered) and would have been rare, they wouldn't be left lying around like all the broken copper tools they used on the limestone blocks. They could have been stored away somewhere in some building/tomb that we haven't even discovered yet, or even just passed down through the generations and recycled.

Just assuming that they built everything with the tools that we have only found so far is a bit silly, it's like archaeologists in the future finding some carpenter tools everywhere and assuming we built our entire civilization with just those tools alone. (We probably could given enough dedication... but we didn't )

a reply to: Xabi87

Those are the old videos i have seen?

You are asking someone else if you have seen those videos?

That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it.

actually it does


given enough time and man power the tools that are suggested were used makes sense.

Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

Just the finished product or do you want a video showing the whole process?

originally posted by: Xabi87
a reply to: Harte

Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

To me, the whole theory that they made those cuts with copper tools is just insane and it seems impossible. Do you not think it's possible that they did have other tools or methods that we just haven't discovered yet? I don't think that's an extreme theory like, there are plenty of places still to dig around the world.

I can't see why anyone would consider it impossible, after seeing it done by people with no tradition of sawing stone.
Remember, that was granite. And I linked a second vid showing how granite was smoothed.

What, I gotta drag a piece of granite to your living room and cut it right in front of you?

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Xabi87
a reply to: Harte

Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

To me, the whole theory that they made those cuts with copper tools is just insane and it seems impossible. Do you not think it's possible that they did have other tools or methods that we just haven't discovered yet? I don't think that's an extreme theory like, there are plenty of places still to dig around the world.

I can't see why anyone would consider it impossible, after seeing it done by people with no tradition of sawing stone.
Remember, that was granite. And I linked a second vid showing how granite was smoothed.

What, I gotta drag a piece of granite to your living room and cut it right in front of you?

Harte

You'd also need to dress as an ancient Egyptian, shave your head and speak only that language - important details ya know! LOL

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Xabi87
a reply to: Harte

Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

To me, the whole theory that they made those cuts with copper tools is just insane and it seems impossible. Do you not think it's possible that they did have other tools or methods that we just haven't discovered yet? I don't think that's an extreme theory like, there are plenty of places still to dig around the world.

I can't see why anyone would consider it impossible, after seeing it done by people with no tradition of sawing stone.
Remember, that was granite. And I linked a second vid showing how granite was smoothed.

What, I gotta drag a piece of granite to your living room and cut it right in front of you?

Harte

Surely you have more examples to show me? As i said they don't prove anything, show me another video where they actually finish a block. You can't just scrape a bit of rock and say that's how they created those works of art, i want to see someone replicate it.

And yes, do it yourself if you have to, start a kickstarter or something... if you can finally prove your theory you will shut a lot of people like me up.

a reply to: Hanslune

This no place for cheerleaders.

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: Xabi87

Those are the old videos i have seen?

You are asking someone else if you have seen those videos?

That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it.

actually it does


given enough time and man power the tools that are suggested were used makes sense.

Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

Just the finished product or do you want a video showing the whole process?

The finished project would do, something like the picture i posted using only copper and stone tools.

a reply to: Xabi87

The finished project would do, something like the picture i posted using only copper and stone tools. Text

Its established some of the cuts can be done with copper tool. When you see downwards score marks though it means debris has been caught and the drill is moving at high speed. There is a distinct difference.

Also the accuracy of such tools does not match the engineering skills that some of these blocks have been cut too. Less than 100th of an inch.

Can you show me what type of tools would work to such accuracy and how the measured this so precisely. Cas the truth of the issue is we dont know.

a reply to: Harte

Look closely. Each surface has a radius and thus was made by a round object. Harte

Thank you for your reply. Soz have not had time to answer other messages yet.
I looked closely and i cant make it fit into a circle. I tried on vector software and this is as close as I could achieve. It dont cut the mustard.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Xabi87
a reply to: Harte

Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

To me, the whole theory that they made those cuts with copper tools is just insane and it seems impossible. Do you not think it's possible that they did have other tools or methods that we just haven't discovered yet? I don't think that's an extreme theory like, there are plenty of places still to dig around the world.

I can't see why anyone would consider it impossible, after seeing it done by people with no tradition of sawing stone.
Remember, that was granite. And I linked a second vid showing how granite was smoothed.

What, I gotta drag a piece of granite to your living room and cut it right in front of you?

Harte

So what you’re saying here is — you can’t provide even one simple example of someone replicating this start to finish.

We’ve all seen the videos of them cutting granite with copper, but nothing even remotly close to a polished finish the ancient Egyptians created.

Xabi87 was quite specific in asking for a finished product created RECENTLY. Can you provide that?

a reply to: purplemer

The initial drill bore was probably small so as to apply the highest pressure on the likely scarce hard carborundum.
Pretty sure after a little experimentation they would have used a liquid lubricant/coolant slurry to maximize their progress.
No evidence of diamond dust residue was ever found AFAIK but there are plenty of hard course carborundum that will score rather than crumble.

originally posted by: KKLOCO
Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

No thanks. I've shown you enough to convince anyone with an open mind.
You'll just move the goalposts. Again.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: KKLOCO
Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

No thanks. I've shown you enough to convince anyone with an open mind.
You'll just move the goalposts. Again.

Harte

So the answer is no. Exactly what I thought.

originally posted by: Slichter
a reply to: purplemer

The initial drill bore was probably small so as to apply the highest pressure on the likely scarce hard carborundum.
Pretty sure after a little experimentation they would have used a liquid lubricant/coolant slurry to maximize their progress.
No evidence of diamond dust residue was ever found AFAIK but there are plenty of hard course carborundum that will score rather than crumble.

The AEs could have used carborundum. But I'd point out that in the vid, Stocks is using sand from right there at Giza.
Also, in his experiments with sand Stocks found he had greater success with dry cuts.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: KKLOCO
Those are the old videos i have seen? That doesn't prove much at all, it just shows that over time copper could scrape bits of granite away but it doesn't prove that's how they did it. Show me one where they actually finish a block using those methods and it looking as smooth and well crafted as the ancient ones. Right angle's and all.

No thanks. I've shown you enough to convince anyone with an open mind.
You'll just move the goalposts. Again.

Harte

So you can't provide me with a finished example then? I'll take that as it's never been done then... because it can't. You're theory is just that, a theory.... one which has not been proven yet.