6th Generation Fighter Meta Thread

We started a meta thread to collect the information on the Su-57 to keep it in a single spot that is easy to find and it seems to be fairly successful. Let's do the same thing with the 6th gen fighters. There are several in development, but it is very early for all the different fighters. When they make progress, I propose we break the thread up into the constituent aircraft with their own dedicated threads.

The known current 6th gen fighters are the American NGAD program, the American FA-XX, the British led Tempest, the Franco-German Future Combat Aircraft System, the unnamed Chinese aircraft, possibly the Japanese F-3 and the the possibly mythical Russian system. The MiG-41 may count as well, if it ever actually materializes.

The American NGAD may be the furthest along having been funded to almost $300M in FY18 and over $500M in FY19. It is projected to be funded at $1.2B in FY20, but the F-15X may derail or at least delay the effort.

apps.dtic.mil...

However, some have been calling the Chinese Dark Sword UCAV the first 6th gen fighter. If so, it is much further along than the American NGAD. It should be noted, the Chinese internet forums have strongly stated the airbreak/F-35B like inlet at the top picture is a fake. So it is not likely at this point that the Dark Sword is a VSTOL.

www.thedrive.com...

What the 6th gen will look like, what its defining characteristics as a generation or who will actually build 6th gen are completely up in the air. There may be divergences between countries again. Time will tell.

a reply to: anzha

There is absolutely no evidence that the F-15X would delay or use funding from this project. I find it sort of fishy that you would place that sentence in your post.


If anything, the real waste is SLEP on existing F-15 C/D's.

My idea on the Gen 6 is that the scale ups and whatnot have already been built in the USA by the various contractors. Still probably Above Top Secret at this point.

China is ALL smoke and mirrors. Always have been - probably always will be. Heck, they even build gigantic fake cities - what is to keep them from making fake Gen 6 fighters that merely have Gen 4.5 capabilities. I would say nothing. I would also say that is more than likely what they are really doing.

France/Germany will be interesting to watch. They are completely capable of building Gen 6.

Russia is capable in a technical sense, but not in any other sense (it seems). Although we could be surprised.

a reply to: anzha

Money is going to be the big factor. Russia has made some wild claims on the MiG-41. With their matsci issues, I don't see them developing an engine that could cruise a Mach 3+ for long periods of time, and sprint to Mach 4+.

China has a real shot at developing a true 6th Gen (I still hate generations), but even they are going to have some issues with it, with their lack of experience in some areas. They've been learning fast though, so they have a real shot at seeing one fly by 2030, or shortly after.

a reply to: Fools

The money for the F-15X is coming from somewhere, and this is the easiest program to cut from. It's the farthest from actual development, and we have the most time as far as replacements go. Cutting other programs is going to hurt us more than cutting this one would, so it's logical to take money from it. On the other hand, the Fighter Mafia is likely to cut something that doesn't make sense to cut, just to keep their new fighter on track.

a reply to: Zaphod58

What capabilities is required for a "6th Gen"?

I like to think i'm up to date on jets and rockets but I am only human!

a reply to: Allaroundyou

That's still being fully fleshed out, but they're talking things like self healing skin, longer range and persistence, net-centric capablitites, survivability....

a reply to: Zaphod58

That all sounds super expensive man.... But a must do if ya ask me.

And we think the JSF program was expensive lol

a reply to: Allaroundyou

There are ways to keep the cost down. They're currently doing technology maturation on some of the subsytems. They want a laser by the 2030s, and it was scheduled to be at TRL4 by 2014, and 5 by 2022. They'll perform sensor integration, and other systems development, as well as using as much off the shelf technology as they can. It's going to be expensive, yes, but not as hugely expensive as it could be.

Is it possible to define Sixth Generation? There seems to be different interpretations, but I’ve done a trawl and aggregated together opinion on what Sixth-Generation may entail. Anything ekse?

- Super stealth and very small radar cross-section
- New generation engines - very high speed and very high altitude
- Airframe morphing
- Directed energy weapons
- Step change in electronics, including battlespace networked
- Pilotless, or piloted
- AI
- Long range
- Multi-role
- Affordable
- Swarming i.e. controls other UCAVs etc

a reply to: paraphi

Has anyone really introduced new engine tech recently? I mean yes they have made them more fuel efficient but not able to achieve higher speeds. I could be wrong on this but as far as I know that tech is pretty old.
Also with newer technology coming out wouldn't every jet be multi-role?
I don't mean to come off as a poopy head, Just curious.

a reply to: CapsFreedom

J-40 will be the thing to watch.

Powered by (Chinese knockoffs of) Russian 4th gen engines? Does not sound particularly exciting.

a reply to: Allaroundyou

Efficiency is pretty much everything. The ADVENT engine aimed for a 25% improvement in fuel efficiency. That's a huge improvement in range and loiter time.

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: CapsFreedom

J-40 will be the thing to watch.

Powered by (Chinese knockoffs of) Russian 4th gen engines? Does not sound particularly exciting.

Don't underestimate thy enemy dude. All that flashy electronic stuff we have in America does come from SK, Japan and China.
Silicon valley does a part but to what country buys all that crap.

There is no strict definition of 6th. Even 5th gen is fuzzy. F-35 for example lacks super cruise and TVC which the earlier F-22 had. 6th gen will certainly feature scramjet for hypersonic speed.

originally posted by: Allaroundyou
a reply to: paraphi

Has anyone really introduced new engine tech recently? I mean yes they have made them more fuel efficient but not able to achieve higher speeds. I could be wrong on this but as far as I know that tech is pretty old.
Also with newer technology coming out wouldn't every jet be multi-role?
I don't mean to come off as a poopy head, Just curious.

Scramjet is the next generation aircraft engine. It is mature. Avangard bomb and Zircon anti ship missile already use it. BrahMos 2 anti ship missile has it too. 6th gen will certainly use scramjet for hypersonic speed.

originally posted by: CapsFreedom
There is no strict definition of 6th. Even 5th gen is fuzzy. F-35 for example lacks super cruise and TVC which the earlier F-22 had. 6th gen will certainly feature scramjet for hypersonic speed.

Well it can super cruise for a very short period of time. But then it's not really cruising!
Till we get better stealth. super cruise is kinda not in the deck.

originally posted by: CapsFreedom

originally posted by: Allaroundyou
a reply to: paraphi

Has anyone really introduced new engine tech recently? I mean yes they have made them more fuel efficient but not able to achieve higher speeds. I could be wrong on this but as far as I know that tech is pretty old.
Also with newer technology coming out wouldn't every jet be multi-role?
I don't mean to come off as a poopy head, Just curious.

Scramjet is the next generation aircraft engine. It is mature. Avangard bomb and Zircon anti ship missile already use it. BrahMos 2 anti ship missile has it too. 6th gen will certainly use scramjet for hypersonic speed.

But that has only been used on a manned airframe a handful of times. We just need to make better frames for that bad boy.

originally posted by: Allaroundyou

originally posted by: CapsFreedom

originally posted by: Allaroundyou
a reply to: paraphi

Has anyone really introduced new engine tech recently? I mean yes they have made them more fuel efficient but not able to achieve higher speeds. I could be wrong on this but as far as I know that tech is pretty old.
Also with newer technology coming out wouldn't every jet be multi-role?
I don't mean to come off as a poopy head, Just curious.

Scramjet is the next generation aircraft engine. It is mature. Avangard bomb and Zircon anti ship missile already use it. BrahMos 2 anti ship missile has it too. 6th gen will certainly use scramjet for hypersonic speed.

But that has only been used on a manned airframe a handful of times. We just need to make better frames for that bad boy.

Jet engine don't last as long as prop engine but because it's faster all fighter planes these days use jet engine instead of prop engine. Scramjet may not last as long as turbojet and turbofan but over time it is expected to improve in lifespan and because it is faster than turbojet and turbofan it is expected to replace turbojet and turbofan over time/