Social Scores and Surveillance State; the Scope and Implications.

The levels of control and surveillance the Chinese government is implementing right now should be one of our main concerns. China is using technology against its citizens to force certain behaviors and eradicate dissent with bold impunity and the world is watching. I’m sure that certain powerful figures worldwide are taking notes and trying to figure out just how far a government can go invading human autonomy and dignity.

In case you’re not abreast of the most current systems of control being used in China, here is a decent place to start. Facial recognition and ubiquitous cameras ensure no citizen cross the street without permission. Social scores reward the “trustworthy” with the freedom to travel and other benefits, while those who cannot be trusted are outed and stopped in their tracks. What a person buys is monitored and contributes to one’s social score. Travel is restricted for those who do not comply. Buying and selling, too. Not surprisingly, journalists or others who reveal inconvenient truths find themselves in the untrustworthy group. There is no recourse or way to change one’s standing once solidified.

The Turkish-Muslim minority is being brutally oppressed and is seeing the brunt of this invasive technology. The government forced its citizens to submit DNA, voice, and facial recognition samples and many have simply disappeared into “reeducation camps.”

Also horrifying to me is that a great deal of “western” companies are complying and manufacturing surveillance-installed products for China.

More than 200 manufacturers, including Tesla, Volkswagen, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Nissan, Mitsubishi and U.S.-listed electric vehicle startup NIO, transmit position information and dozens of other data points to government-backed monitoring centers, The Associated Press has found. Generally, it happens without car owners’ knowledge.

www.mercurynews.com...

If they want it, we will build it type thinking will affect us all as soon as the leaders in the west figure out just how willing people are to submit their freedoms to the state.



Most of us have already revealed our deepest fears, our inclinations and feelings and interests and all of our personal information to google, gmail, facebook, alexa, ats, our android, anyway.

I truly do wonder where all this will lead us.

Any thoughts?

a reply to: zosimov

SInce the government has outsourced NSA activities to Booz Allen a for-profit corporation nothing surprises me. Why do we even have government at this point. Or, in other words, corporations ARE the government.

The executives of Booz Allen have a legal obligation to maximize the return to the shareholders by law. Why shouldn't Booz Allen sell to the highest bidder even if that includes China or Russia. It's would be very profitable for Booz Allen to sell state secrets to other governments who want to buy them.

a reply to: zosimov

Great thread, this is hardly discussed and you don’t seem to hear anything about it from the MSM. No doubt this social scoring will be coming to the west in the near future if not overtly then covertly. All the technology is in place and they already know how we spend our daily lives.

Many here don’t have FB and social media accounts, but there are people out there who don’t trust people who don’t use social media. As horrible as this social scoring sounds to us, there are people out there who think it would be a great thing.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: zosimov
there are people out there who think it would be a great thing.

Absolutely true that there are many who assume that because they would toe the line this is acceptable.

There's an example in the video of a family who are all for the "safety" such intensive social pressure brings.

Thanks for reading.

There's a great episode in the TV series The Orville where how people on social media can destroy someone's life by how they vote:

orville.wikia.com...

And:

www.fox.com...

Full episode:

www.dailymotion.com...

a reply to: zosimov

This reminds me of the movie Gattaca. Of coarse that was more geared towards your DNA quality.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Thanks for this interesting info. It's all part of the same machine, and absolutely worth thinking about how all of our online activity (and really what we say when our phones or computers or smart stuff are nearby might affect us in the next decade or so.

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: zosimov

This reminds me of the movie Gattaca. Of coarse that was more geared towards your DNA quality.

I don't think it's a huge leap to go there (China already experimenting with gene editing)-- highly unsettling to think about.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: dfnj2015

Thanks for this interesting info. It's all part of the same machine, and absolutely worth thinking about how all of our online activity (and really what we say when our phones or computers or smart stuff are nearby might affect us in the next decade or so.

The other part of this is the absolute complete desensitization of what is scandalous. It's like the movie the Pulp Fiction where characters go around killing people without any moral contemplation as easy as breathing. But the mob boss throwing one of the henchmen out the window of high rise for giving the mob's boss's girlfriend a foot massage is a huge topic of moral discussion.

I imagine the same will eventually occur with social media. Weiner showing his weiner will not be as scandalous as someone using ALL CAPS IN A FORUM POST INAPPROPRIATELY or some such nonsense.

a reply to: zosimov

I absolutely love this subject. Every time it comes up I listen intently to what others have to say while trying to gauge the attitudes towards such intrusiveness in the private affairs of a private citizen. China is a perfect example of where all of our countries could take the use of tech and social media. Quite scary TBH.

I've been watching the development of this program for years now and cognitive dissonance is hugely at play within the country. It has been interesting to see the results of the experiment.

Cognitive dissonance refers to a situation involving conflicting attitudes, beliefs or behaviors. This produces a feeling of mental discomfort leading to an alteration in one of the attitudes, beliefs or behaviors to reduce the discomfort and restore balance.

There are some though that have rejected the current social scoring system. I believe it was on ATS that I watched a video about a man that can't travel, get loans, or a job because of his bad social score.

Very interesting subject and I appreciate you starting a discussion around it again.

Thanks,
blend

a reply to: blend57

Thank you for reading and commenting, and it's always nice to see you, blend

I am completely with you in that this subject fascinates and horrifies me. I get uncomfortable to the core when I see movies like the Stanford Prison Experiment where people allow themselves to be invaded and controlled for fear of reprisal.

I am all for free will, and for the freedom to say or do things that society might not "approve" of (of course there are limits to freedom, but these should be only limited to behavior that harms others and the basic laws cover these).

There is an element of human dignity that is affronted and offended by such control.

I'm not sure what could be done but awareness is a good place to start.

a reply to: zosimov

What you've got over here from what we've gathered is a lack of state regulation of data gathering or too little and some regulations legitimate and necessify data use , and now you've got corporates bulk buying and sharing customer info which makes an aggregate assumption of peoples type based on their assumed worst traits or by convenient categorisations anyway . Those bar readers at the doors to shops in town tell the security who you are based on your card details and or the phone in your pocket , with which status or necessary alert level comes up using things like your search statuses , criminal records , financial position etc .
If something notable comes up on a customer - usually deemed a necessary suspicion , they radio it down to the shop floor
Sometimes alarms are immediately set off on so called undesirables entering. Employees such as till assistants then get notified of particular customers' status as the shop security deem necessary , and it all causes considerable embarrassment and social awkwardness , unless they're the kind of staff that revel in gossip and p8sstaking . That's the obvious tool end 's etching on society anyway , of all that gathering . Whisperings from the upper halls behind the cctv .
Leave your phone behind and take cash with you , and they'd be none the wiser , until that facial recognition replaces the
circuitry you go through at the doors .

a reply to: DoctorBluechip

I knew ATS would be the right place to bring this discussion.

Thank you for this added (scary) info.

Love the discussion the subject has generated so far!

originally posted by: dfnj2015
But the mob boss throwing one of the henchmen out the window of high rise for giving the mob's boss's girlfriend a foot massage is a huge topic of moral discussion.

"Truth is, nobody knows why Marcellus threw Tony out of that fourth-story window except for Marcellus and Tony."

Sorry, I had to. Otherwise your point isn't lost on me.

Cool thread discussion.

a reply to: zosimov

It started in 2014. It is still not fully launched nationwide but is expected to be so by 2020.

China's social credit system was launched in 2014 and is supposed to be nationwide by 2020. As well as tracking and rating individuals, it also encompasses businesses and government officials. When it is complete, every Chinese citizen will have a searchable file of amalgamated data from public and private sources tracking their social credit. Currently, the system is still under development and authorities are trying to centralise local databases ...

But they did "test markets" as early as 2001.

The Social Credit System also originated from Grid-style social management, a policing strategy first implemented in select locations from 2001 and 2002 (during the rule of Chinese Paramount Leader Hu Jintao) in specific locations across mainland China. In its first phase, grid-style policing was a system for more effective communication between public security bureaus. Within a few years the grid system was adapted for use in distributing social services. Grid management provided the authorities not only with greater situational awareness on the group level, but also enhanced the tracking and monitoring of individuals ...

But still, earlier yet...in 1999:

The concept of a system of social credit first emerged in 1999 when officials aimed to strengthen trust in the country’s emerging market economy. However, the focus quickly shifted from building financial creditworthiness to encompass the moral actions of the country’s enterprises, officials, judiciary, and citizens.

More recently, in 2010, Suining County, in eastern China’s Jiangsu Province, began experimenting with a system to rate its citizens. Established to quantify individuals’ behavior, points could be deducted for breaking laws, but also for deviating from social norms and political positioning. Residents were initially awarded 1,000 points. Running a red light, driving while drunk, bribing a public official, or failing to support elderly family members resulted in a 50-point deduction.

The total would be then be used to assign an A to D rating. A-ratings were above 970 points, while those with less than 599 points were given D-ratings. Lower-rated citizens had a harder time accessing social welfare and government housing. More than half of an individual’s points related to social management ...

So, it really has been quite a process to get it implemented and if you follow it through the years, you can see how it was/is a gradual change for the country. It wasn't/isn't an overnight thing. Most citizens probably didn't even expect it to go this far until it was too late. Now they have a score for dog owners:

In Jinan, a city in eastern Shandong province, authorities have rolled out a credit scoring system to enforce responsible dog ownership.

After enforcing the system in January last year, recently released figures show some 1430 owners have been penalised, with more than 120 temporarily surrendering their beloved pooch after losing all their points, according to a CCTV news article on Jinan's SCS website.

Just like an Australian driver's licence, the pet demerit system gives every registered dog owner a licence with 12 points, and penalises owners for every infraction.

First-time offenders who walked their dog without a leash or tag, or didn't clean up after their pet, or were reported for a disturbance, were docked three points ...

and also frivolous spending!

Under the system, both financial behaviors like “frivolous spending” and bad behaviors like lighting up in smoke-free zones can result in stiff consequences. Penalties include loss of employment and educational opportunities, as well as transportation restrictions. Those with high scores get perks, like discounts on utility bills and faster application processes to travel abroad...

If even a portion of this stuff is true, well, I dunno what to say... Orwellian state is right!

Thanks,
blend

a reply to: zosimov

All I can say is that at least China is pretty open about being a surveillance state. The US is a surveillance state and pretty much denies it. Even after Snowdens exposure of the NSA, they keep gathering data...the Patriot act keeps on trucking and even further, everyone's info is for sale on the free market.

a reply to: blend57

I'm glad you bought up the point that a lot of the citizens were blindsided by the most invasive/biggest changes, made by a gradual implementation of slightly less invasive control.

Really scary level of scrutiny. Good that you mentioned the brave souls who will not comply to the system-- they're truly putting everything at stake to fight the state.

*looks at stars and flags*

*looks at thread title*

*blinks*

Ok, deep breath. Taking a look at sites like reddit, yelp, fb, Twitter, instagram, YouTube and Google, I would imagine the Chinese saying the same thing about Americans.



We're already there. It's just masked.

a reply to: kelbtalfenek

You are right except for the fact that citizens in China are prevented from buying basic necessities if they are deemed an enemy of the state.

But, absolutely, the covert spying done here is nothing to scoff at!

a reply to: JinMI

I can be dense sometimes but really can't tell what stars and flags and thread title have to do with this?

BUT yes. We are HEAVILY scrutinized. However, we can still enter a grocery store and buy what we want relatively unmolested, take a train or plane (usually) without restriction unlike certain Chinese citizens.