"The Jews killed Jesus" - this is said too often, in truth we all did.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Theocracy4America

He laid down his life as a sacrifice for all the world's sin.

Sorry, but I've never been able to get my head around this.

How did Jesus dying have any effect or bearing on 'the world's sin' or the sins of every individual that's lived?

That's a question that can't be answered in a short summary, so here's a link...

Why did Jesus have to die for our sins?

carm.org...

originally posted by: Deetermined

That's a question that can't be answered in a short summary, so here's a link...

Why did Jesus have to die for our sins?

carm.org...

For every action there's an equal an opposite reaction. The wages of sin is death. When sin came into the world, death accompanied it. The Jews in the interim would sacrifice first-born animals without blemish to be a dying sacrifice to atone for their sins. Yet none of these animals were actually perfect, so God would sacrifice his firstborn without blemish which would actually atone for the sins of all humankind forever.

This was foreshadowed by God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, and when Abraham obliged, it put him near Godliness because that is exactly what God would one day do for all of humanity.

originally posted by: Spacespider
a reply to: Theocracy4America


In the end it does not matter who killed him..
he died for our sins, as in all of us.

That is the part of Christianity that I just can' t make sense of no matter what. He died so that we can still be sinners and go to heaven???? All I have to do is believe and I can be a sinner and because someone killed Jesus, now I am going to heaven because I believe... What kind of place is heaven going to be with a bunch of sinners that made the grade just because they believe Jesus died for our sin??? Your still going to have crappy human behaviors and won't that ruin heaven. Now if Jesus transforms us into decent, unselfish beings that would make heaven a great place, what was the point? How many killers and rapists that go to prison all of the sudden believe and they too are going to heaven...using my god given thinking skills, the doctrine just doesn't make sense..no disrespect intended. I think it does create a nice set up for relinquishing self responsibility, if you believe you are a born sinner and your only hope is believing Christ died for your sins, it allows you to be passive and let someone else do the work for you.

a reply to: pointessa

Now if Jesus transforms us into decent, unselfish beings that would make heaven a great place, what was the point? How many killers and rapists that go to prison all of the sudden believe and they too are going to heaven...using my god given thinking skills, the doctrine just doesn't make sense..no disrespect intended.

As humans, some things are just beyond our comprehension.

Isaiah 55:7-11

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

a reply to: Theocracy4America

Anti jew propaganda. nobody can kill a FICTIONAL being.

a reply to: pointessa

I believe everyone goes to heaven..
But you will have to review your life in the eyes of those around you

a reply to: Theocracy4America

Well the Jews are people also.

In truth though, how do you kill, in all probability, a fictitious character?

a reply to: cooperton

This was foreshadowed by God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, and when Abraham obliged,....

No he didn't oblige....he was going to but he didn't actually do it.

..... it put him near Godliness because that is exactly what God would one day do for all of humanity.

So if I sacrificed my first born son would that make me too 'near Godliness' or if it didn't it wouldn't matter because Jesus had already died for my sin and as long I acknowledged this I would still go to heaven?

I just don't get this at all.....never have and maybe never will.

a reply to: Theocracy4America

Quite often I hear an anti-Semitic statement justified with "they killed the Messiah".

How does one judge when a person says such that they are anti Semitic and not just giving an opinion free of any hate or bigotry based on their knowledge base?

In fact it was technically a distinctly non-Jewish Roman government who sentenced him for starting an uprising and a Roman soldier who carried out the sentence.

yes, why and by whom was he brought to the governing body?

The Jews of course did instigate the proceedings and their own records show that it was for crimes of blasphemy and sorcery. This is in reference to claiming to be equal with or being God himself as well as performing miracles.

Cool, so the Jews, some of them at the time judged him but could not punish him accordingly or how they wanted or were allowed by their religious beliefs so they went to the Romans who could punish with death.

So who's fault is it that he died? It's your fault, and my fault.

No its not.

You are not learning the lessons Jesus tried to teach and that is to take responsibility for your own actions and stand up for your beliefs.

If someone is to fault its Jesus himself for his death but without it and without the way its described would you or many million still today have as much faith?

Who knows?

Only God, not even Jesus himself would know how things would be if he had gone left instead of right when he came to the many cross roads he faced in life like we all do.

God is not a racist, he loves everyone enough to die for them, so do not use his love to justify your racism.

How can God die?



or are you a person who believes Jesus is God?

If so, do you believe yourself to be God as well as Jesus was and is believed to be by many?

a reply to: Theocracy4America

If a secular government and Jewish leaders both confirm his existance, and other records of the day also mention him, it's unlikely that he was made up.

But when many things attributed to said character seems to be copied from older myths and stories about saviors that came before him in other cultures its reasonable for one to consider that the we are fed many deceitful things about Jesus.

Jesus existed, a man with too much wisdom even for today was unbalancing the status quo.

Also certain things in the account are not what someone of the time would make up.

like what?

One of the most shocking is that he was discovered by women, one possibly being a former prostitute.

Or described that way because of the centuries of trying to hold women down and not equal to men on many levels.

originally posted by: richapau
a reply to: Theocracy4America

Anti jew propaganda. nobody can kill a FICTIONAL being.

So wolverine is still alive?

Dude you just made my day.




Hold on...

but what if another fictional character kills him, then would it count?

a reply to: andy06shake

That's is of course true. I was not suggesting that they are not, but that people should stop using scripture to support racism.

a reply to: Theocracy4America

Amen to that brother!

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: cooperton

No he didn't oblige....he was going to but he didn't actually do it.

He obliged in that he was about to do what he was told, but then was stopped.

So if I sacrificed my first born son would that make me too 'near Godliness'

No it would mean you don't believe Jesus's sacrifice was enough, so that wouldn't be a good thing to do by any means. Jesus's sacrifice was essentially a karmic buffer for all humankind.

a reply to: Blue Shift

I don't know what tinker toy Bible you're reading (or have had read to you), but nowhere does it say that sin equals death. If you can't get this nuance correct, I don't see how you can be counted on to provide any intelligent commentary on the subject.

Romans_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

a reply to: Theocracy4America

Quite often I hear an anti-Semitic statement justified with "they killed the Messiah". In fact it was technically a distinctly non-Jewish Roman government who sentenced him for starting an uprising and a Roman soldier who carried out the sentence. The Jews of course did instigate the proceedings and their own records show that it was for crimes of blasphemy and sorcery. This is in reference to claiming to be equal with or being God himself as well as performing miracles. So who's fault is it that he died?

You have told only a very small part of the complete story. Even though the nation of Israel was conquered and politically controlled by the Roman empire at this time, the Jews were allowed religious freedom and the obligation to pay tribute to Rome. This was also controlled to the extant that the Jewish priesthood's authority was sold by the Romans to the highest bidder in a binding contract. That contract was sold, at this time, to the house of Annas.

Annas had been the high priest from 6 AD to 15 AD with five of his sons holding the same office. His son in law [Caiaphas] was now the high priest as Jesus came upon the scene but it was still known as the house of Annas. But it was deeper than just buying the priesthood. The house of Annas were Sadducee's and being Sadducee's did not believe in any form of afterlife whatsoever. They used the Torah only to appease the Jerusalem Jews while advocating total disregard for the Tanakh and teaching their disbelief of afterlife to the nation. This is what Jesus found as He came into His ministry. The people were so ignorant of what a true Jew should have been and very few were even aware of their own language. They were totally corrupted and ignorant.

As Jesus was arrested, it was by the temple guards and not the Roman army. He was brought before the house of Annas and charged with blasphemy. Mocked and scourged, Jesus was then thrown into a deep stone holding pit. From here He was then tried by the Jerusalem Sanhedrin of seventy in the rock of hewn stones. Found innocent of the charge of blasphemy He was then charged again by the house of Annas as to sedition to the Roman Empire. This charge was then taken into the account of the director [Prefect] of Rome who was Pontius Pilate who in turn had sold the priesthood to the house of Annas.

Here is where Pilate intervened in this case and tried Jesus on the charge of sedition without a court or without permission of the Roman courts. All death penalties should have had the Roman Courts approval. That was the law of Rome at this time. This never happened and when Rome later was aware of this, then Pilate was called to Rome and among other charges was relieved of his office and sent into exile. This is where Pilate eventually committed suicide.

The Jerusalem High courts and Pilate both found Jesus innocent of two separate indictments and by the Jews own tradition brought the death penalty to Jesus. The death of Jesus was invoked by a organized mob just as we see today all over the world. A Godless group of people who were probably paid by the house of Annas and exactly as we see today.

Nevertheless, how can we fault Rome when Rome was totally unaware of this entire happening? How can we fault the court of Sanhedrin when they also rendered not guilty? The key players in this entire murder was Annas and son in law Caiaphas.

a reply to: Theocracy4America

Technically Jesus (god) killed himself.

Its Okay I Can Take that Hit,

it Was For ,

"The War on Earth as it is in Heaven"

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Within Above Thread.

a reply to: pointessa

I've heard this sort of stuff before, i'm not really sure it deserves an answer, but, in case you really are being genuine.

Your point goes something like this, if God is OK, why not just let everyone in? Here you are missing the point. God is perfect, and this means perfect justice. So, God demands justice for sin, so, if He let everyone in, then He would no longer have perfect justice.

Therefore, the only way round this, is, because you can't meet the grade yourself, Jesus, who is God, and therefore perfect, had to sacrifice Himself, in order to pay the price that you can't. By believing on Jesus's sacrifice on the cross as your only way to Heaven, you receive His imputed righteousness.

When you make statements like this,

All I have to do is believe and I can be a sinner and because someone killed Jesus, now I am going to heaven because I believe... What kind of place is heaven going to be with a bunch of sinners that made the grade just because they believe Jesus died for our sin???

What it tells me is that you still think you can save yourself, that is, you have righteousness, and other peoples, eg those 'sinners' you refer to, they're not as good as you.

Well, Jesus only died for sinners, and not for the righteous. If you want to continue to think you're good enough to save yourself, that's for you to think, but, just see how well that works out for you at the Great White throne.

a reply to: Theocracy4America

We should not generalize and say, "the Jews" killed the Messiah. It was the religious leaders who sentenced him to death. Not all Jews including Pontius Pilate agreed with their decision.

He died in order to give life to those he chose to have salvation. Not of your merit nor your choice. It was all planned from the beginning of creation. He already knew his people would kill him. He used their human nature in order to get crucified so that he can destroy the power of death which is symbolized by the Satanic cross because in him was life. Although he died for a while, he knew he would respawn back to life. Because, the simple rule was; don't break any laws and you'll live, even though you died. You'll simply respawn. That's the law of the cosmos. He was the only human being to have done that. After that was done, he can now harvest people whom he had chosen.

The world will never choose him no matter what. Even if you're blue in the face telling everyone to believe him, people will not listen. So, the only solution is through the process of selection by giving his Spirit to the person he chose. Then, only then, he is "able" to believe.

Seeing salvation in the modern eyes is really about transcending physical existence - from mortality to immortality offered by a super advanced being from beyond the cosmos.

Those who do not believe do not actually have a problem with life span. They've already accepted the fact that they will die one day to return back to the soil as a nutrient.

If you don't choose him, it is of your own free will. Nobody will be forced, coerced, tortured, or have his life shortened. However, the super advance being must preserve the creature he created from utter extinction by choosing some to transcend. Although this is already a violation of one's free will, there's really no choice and no laws actually exist if one is to control your free will. You don't see in the ten commandments, "You shall not control people like robots."

So, in the end, others will simply disappear from existence to return to the soil and others will simply transcend to a higher form of existence.

And others, non-physical entities like the fallen angels, demons, and their devoted human worshipers will perpetually experience excruciating burning pain in a place that resembles the surface of the sun for infinity. They must have done really evil things to have this place reserved for them.