Censorship and Gaslighting: Meet Jonathan Yaniv

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Annee

Nut job, huh? Okay.

Just like all those men who know and admit they are in fact autogynephiles, right? Just nut jobs... Right?

She has no credentials.

Her opinions are coming from studies done in 1980.

Criticism of the research and theory has come from trans activists, including developmental biology researcher Julia Serano, Jaimie Veale, Larry Nuttbrock, and some physicians, including Charles Allen Moser and John Bancroft, and others who say that the theory is poorly representative of trans women.

a reply to: Annee

Now its about no credentials? Okay.

Just like all those men who know and admit they are in fact autogynephiles, right? Just like all those men claiming to be women... Right? Do tell me about their credentials...

More gaslighting and you know it. You know the Trans Activist MO is to bully, intimidate, silence and no-platform anyone that doesn't spout the "trans women are women" crap.

ETA: Like these folks who do have "credentials" --

Academics are being harassed over their research into transgender issues

In fact its quite apparent that you don't just know it, you practice the same gas lighting tactics. Its all gaslighting and you don't care who is hurt in the process.

Am I the only one who had a hard time reading past the words "...woman’s male genitalia" in Boadicea's link?

This makes makes my head want to explode.

Women don't have male genitalia. Men do not have female genitalia. Yeah, yeah, except for a few rare cases of genetic oopsies where mother nature couldn't decide what she was doing. Now before Annee and the others who like to bash anyone who says vagina=woman and penis=man pile on and browbeat me for being a bigot or whatever, let me tell you a story. I have never told anyone this story before, ATS, and if ATS runs true to form I probably won't ever bother again. But--

I'm a middle-aged woman, mother of 4 kids and grandmother of 3. I'm straight, many long years divorced, and now many years celibate because my life is overfull with kids and grandkids and I don't have the time, energy, or want-to to bother with a "romantic" relationship. I'm 5'2", feel like I look dumpy when I look in the mirror (which isn't often, because I'm not out to impress anyone), but guess I must be moderately attractive because men hit on me often.

But...really I'm a guy stuck in a woman's body. No, seriously. I don't say this tongue-in-cheek to say, "look how easy it is for anyone to claim this" and be an ass. I'm deadly serious. From the time I can remember even being conscious of "boy" or "girl" --around 4, in my case-- as far as I was concerned I WAS a boy. Mama might dress me in pretty dresses, strangers might compliment her on what a pretty little girl she had etc., but I simply was a boy. I just...was. It wasn't that I was a tomboy--I liked boy-stuff and girl-stuff pretty equally; I played cars in the dirt and tea parties with my toys, cowboys and indians with my dog and pony, barbies with other little girls and the Six-Million-Dollar Man with little boys--or that I thought boys got to do cooler stuff or whatever. It's just what I was. I was just me, and that was part of me.

I got older and we had the "period" talk etc. and, being a child, I thought that somehow all that would magically pass me by. Cuz I was a boy inside, regardless of what my outside looked like. I didn't honestly believe it would ever happen. When I started growing boobs, I was stunned and unbelieving. And when I started my period--at only 9, poor kid, in an age where it happened to most girls at about 13--I remember crying and thinking "Why me? WHY? This can't happen to ME!" But of course it did, because regardless of how I felt, biology rules and my biology dictated that I had a girl's body.

And after the shock wore off, I shrugged my shoulders and said ok. This is how it is. My... self, I guess ...doesn't match my body, but it is what it is. My body worked just fine--did everything it was supposed to, even down to responding to crazy teenage hormones--and though it was frustrating sometimes, for the most part it was just one more thing that made me...me. I grew up, got married, blah blah; had kids (and was equally amazed and disgusted by the whole process of pregnancy and birth--one of the frustrating times!) and generally got on with my life, body be damned.

In my head, I am 6 feet tall and able to reach those lightbulbs I have to ask my tall sons to change for me, and tough enough to split the firewood myself, and am still shocked to find I'm only a little bitty woman more often than I'd like to admit. I think like a guy. I feel like a guy, no matter what I see when I look in the mirror. I am a guy, inside.

BUT--my outside is not a guy. My body is a woman, regardless of what my personality/self/soul/whatever you want to call it is. And changing it to look like a guy would no more make me a real guy than bleaching my hair would make me a real blond or buying green contacts would change my eyes from blue to green for real. It's a cosmetic step.

I'm glad I grew up when I did. I think if I were growing up now, I would be a very angry and confused kid. As it was, I had to come to terms with things on my own and get on with my life. And that, I think, is where we're screwing up with the whole trans thing.

Can you be a man stuck in a woman's body or woman stuck in a man's? Absolutely. But the body, like it or not, is male or female. I don't think the cosmetic changes that are all the rage right now are the answer. Neither is trying to change the mind/personality/whatever you want to call it to match the body. What we should be doing, in my opinion, is helping people to deal with the situation as it is in reality--yep, you got the wrong bod, let's see how we can help you to accept both your body and your interior self as they are, rather than damaging a perfectly good body and putting you on hormones for the rest of your life OR dismissing you as crazy. I think "trans activists" and "transphobes" have BOTH got it completely wrong.

And on topic--guys like the creep in the OP and all the other militant trans people are doing exactly what they aren't willing to do themselves. They refuse to accept themselves as they are, but expect the rest of the world to accept them as they wish they were. Hypocrites.

Thanks for listening. Now let me go grab my asbestos armor.

a reply to: riiver

Wow. Thank you. That was a lot to share and I appreciate it. I can actually relate to much of what you say.
I'm about the same age, and growing up with a gaggle of brothers in a neighborhood with only boys, my little sister and I were very much tomboys at times, but we loved to play house and zoo too -- and the boys played with us. It went both ways.

We grew up and we both hated puberty and much of what came with it. But it was what it was.

Today I wonder how we would have been treated... And the boys playing house with us. To this day I still wear jeans and T-shirts and tennies more often than not. But I can't imagine being anything except what I am -- even with all the attendant health problems female anatomy has brought me and my daughter.

But we all are what we are: a glorious and amazing combination of so-called male and female parts -- and lots more on top of that which is neither male or female. Just nature and nurture we're all the same and all different all at the same time.

I have a great deal of respect and understanding for those who refuse to conform to gender standards and stereotypes. It's exactly what feminists have been saying for centuries... Don't define us by our genitals and gender!!!

And for what it's worth, I'm not quite 6 feet, but I'd help you with the stuff on the top shelf any time! Whenever I'm at the market I seem to find someone who just can't reach that top shelf. It's an easy good deed for the day...

a reply to: riiver

I have to add something here:

I think "trans activists" and "transphobes" have BOTH got it completely wrong.

I agree for the most part, but I also believe that's by design. Playing the extremes against each other, appealing to emotion and opinion over fact and reason.

And on topic--guys like the creep in the OP and all the other militant trans people are doing exactly what they aren't willing to do themselves. They refuse to accept themselves as they are, but expect the rest of the world to accept them as they wish they were. Hypocrites. 

I agree... But I also keep in mind that the Trans Activists do not speak for all trans people -- the activists are just the loudest and most vocal and get the attention and good publicity... Everyone else is bullied and silenced and "discredited" one way or another by the activists.

My heart goes out to the ones who just want to live and let live without all the drama and labels. And especially to the kids being manipulated and brain washed to chemically and surgically mutilate their healthy bodies.

No one should be told they aren't good enough just as they are.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
However, I still fail to see what their chat room posting history has to do with their lawsuit.

Yaniv has an order of anonymity provided by the tribunal, as he claims he's a "closeted" transwoman and that he doesn't wanted to be "outed". The chatroom and group posts are to prove that he isn't closeted, and that the order is unnecessary.

It's interesting that threatening to expose his creepy conversations seemed to strike some terrible fear into him, and he quickly dropped the complaint against the esthetician who has these screencaps... wonder why that could be?? =)

originally posted by: wowzas

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
However, I still fail to see what their chat room posting history has to do with their lawsuit.

Yaniv has an order of anonymity provided by the tribunal, as he claims he's a "closeted" transwoman and that he doesn't wanted to be "outed". The chatroom and group posts are to prove that he isn't closeted, and that the order is unnecessary.

It's interesting that threatening to expose his creepy conversations seemed to strike some terrible fear into him, and he quickly dropped the complaint against the esthetician who has these screencaps... wonder why that could be?? =)

Yes, I also independently researched him.

He seems kind of a mental case. I doubt these lawsuits will go anywhere.

I've said "if they do male genitalia, but refuse him because he's transgender" that's wrong. But, that does not seem to be the case.

Doesn't really change the discussion though.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Annee

Now its about no credentials? Okay.

Just like all those men who know and admit they are in fact autogynephiles, right? Just like all those men claiming to be women... Right? Do tell me about their credentials...

More gaslighting and you know it. You know the Trans Activist MO is to bully, intimidate, silence and no-platform anyone that doesn't spout the "trans women are women" crap.

ETA: Like these folks who do have "credentials" --

Academics are being harassed over their research into transgender issues

In fact its quite apparent that you don't just know it, you practice the same gas lighting tactics. Its all gaslighting and you don't care who is hurt in the process.

Did you even read your own source?

Again, these are psychologists, sociologists, lawyers, etc.

Studying society aspects.

Not doctors or specialists in transgender needs.

a reply to: riiver

And that's you.

Do you have pierced ears? Do you wear makeup? If so, you are altering your body.

I'm 72. Marriage, divorce, kids, all that stuff too. Grew up in an all boy neighborhood, tomboy (also liked girl stuff), but prefer the company of men.

I have "male feelings", but never strong enough that I want to be a man.

And not all transgender act on it. Some do accept their anomaly. Same as some gays live lives straight.

It simply isn't black & white. It's more fluid.

Like the sliding sex scale. You have macho masculine at one end and ultra feminine at the other end -- with everything else falling somewhere in the middle.

For some the mind telling them they are one sex and their body another is strong enough that they feel they need to correct it.

a reply to: stonerwilliam

I have nothing against people of other races doing whatever Phage , But every advert now seems to be cool if it has a mixed couple in it and i do mean every advert .

Why do you think the television is called Programming

If you have no problem with them you wouldn't mind seeing them. Anywhere

Our commercials reflect what we wish for - this is how they sell you stuff. It is programming, just not the kind you think it is

a reply to: Boadicea

Trans Activists are stealing identities

Who owns identity?

Other cultures accommodate and even embrace gender non-conforming in their own right without un-defining and re-defining men and women. And many transgender persons would agree. They would prefer a third option, or even not to be gendered at all.

France at one point was trying to protect it's language from outsiders - and to be fair, mostly from America. But French isn't all one thing - it came from many places, the same as English. Meaning mingles and our understanding of the world changes with the way we use language

Language is magic - in a way. It controls how we see the world

Trying to control language is a laughable attempt at trying to keep everything the same. Nothing stays the same - not knowledge, not language - not how we see the world or how we see ourselves

But good luck with that

a reply to: Annee

Did you even read your own source? 

Again, these are psychologists, sociologists, lawyers, etc. 

Studying society aspects. 

Not doctors or specialists in transgender needs.

More weasel words... More gaslighting.

Is research being hindered and are researchers being harassed? Of course they are!!!

And lets get real here. The ONLY medical research being done is to exploit and extort these people for maximum profit. As in chemically and surgically mutilating their bodies and/or causing them to be medically dependent the rest of their lives.

The puberty-blockers haven't even been FDA approved for these purposes, and no long-term studies have been conducted for adverse effects.

Otherwise, everything about being transgender is superficial -- EVERYTHING!!! And everything demanded of the rest of us is "social" in nature and still superficial.

If the social aspects aren't important and don't merit research, then the Trans Activists need to stop making demands of society.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Language is magic - in a way. It controls how we see the world.

No. Language expresses our thoughts and observations, etc. Language characterizes and portrays what and how we see the world...

Language cannot and does not provide the realities of the world.

Hijacking a word (or words) long established and understood to mean one thing -- such as "woman" -- doesn't change the reality of women... The identity of women. Or of those trying to convince themselves and the world that they are a "woman".

a reply to: Boadicea

No. Language expresses our thoughts and observations, etc. Language characterizes and portrays what and how we see the world...

Pretty much what I just said

But, no less true because you said it

The way we see the world changes - along with how we describe it. Your battle to stop change is not a battle you can win

P.S. I'll ask again: Who owns identity?

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Who owns identity? 

We all do. We all own and nurture our own identity. We can play semantics... We can try to in-define and re-define words, and hope in vain that we can thereby change our identities or someone else's identities, but the reality remains the same.

a reply to: Boadicea

There is a small number of current, legitimate, knowledgeable, qualified, researchers/experts on transgender needs/issues.

Then there is a whole lot of crap out there.

You are choosing what you want to believe.

a reply to: Boadicea

We all do. We all own and nurture our own identity.

Then we should be able to decide for ourselves who and what we are - what we say we are is good enough for me

We can try to in-define and re-define words, and hope in vain that we can thereby change our identities or someone else's identities, but the reality remains the same.

Truer words were never spoken

Do you understand the meaning of the word irony?

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Then we should be able to decide for ourselves who and what we are - what we say we are is good enough for me 

Okay... I think I'm a sexual re-assignment surgeon. I'll put out a shingle and start performing surgeries on the gender dysphoric...

Easy peasy

a reply to: Annee

LOL!!! You know as well as I do that no, the necessary and appropriate research has not and is not being done. In fact, you may know even better than I, given how intent you are to ignore the facts and resort to weasel words and gaslighting.

But that's okay. The world needs to know and you are telling them in no uncertain terms.

Thank you.

a reply to: Boadicea

You can make fun if you like, but here's what I know: things are changing with respect to how we understand gender - and how we see ourselves. All humans. We've even begun to change what we had accepted about Neanderthals. Knowledge never stands still

I know this whole thing makes you angry. Your story in the OP - it's one of those absurd stories that people want to use to prove a point. I get why it bothers you

It's going to be the collection of our stories past, present and leading into the future that will determine how we see ourselves, how we categorize each other - and how we ultimately choose to behave with and treat each other

Gender is not any one thing. Cling to what you think your genitalia says about you if you must - and your chromosomes too. How we see ourselves isn't so easily put into a box