Victoria Cross

Hi guys and galls.

This new topic is a one off and hopefully restricted to us Brits.

It appears to be harder and harder for our boys to earn the Victoria Cross because of civil service 'huffing and puffing' and, I am led to believe, because Hoon the Loon does not favour the two Special Air Servicemen's actions in the fighting for Tora Bora in Afghanistan.

To put this in context my grandfather, Private John Freeman of the 5th Lancers (The Queen's Own Royal) during the Indian Mutiny 1852 at Acre, won the VC for going to the aid of his officer who had been shot and wounded. Apparently, he fought off marauding Sikh cavalry for 30 minutes, killing their leader in the process.

More recently, Colonel Joe Carne at Gloster Hill - Korea 1952 and Imjim River, was seen to be marching up and down the lines, shouting encouragement and directing fire at the attacking Chinese. For this he was awarded the VC. Or was he?

Apon closer inspection on the Victoria Cross web site (now moving to Canada's Wikipedia) I discovered the Joe had in fact been awarded the VC for repeatedly charging Chinese machineguns single handedly with only a swagger stick and a couple of Mills grenades, in the face of hundreds of attacking Chinese.

Then 1982. Colonel 'H' Jones Parachute reg, attacked an enemy machinegun trench, but was fatally hit from flanking trenches.

What do our guys have to do?

I would welcome views from anybody but, please, let's restrict this to the Victoria Cross.

There is only enough material to make another 52.
That may be it, and due to the many new medals made and our increase in performance and lack of enemies may increase the difficulty.
And ofcourse our ever improveing Brilliance lol

Originally posted by fritz
Hi guys and galls.

This new topic is a one off and hopefully restricted to us Brits.

It appears to be harder and harder for our boys to earn the Victoria Cross because of civil service 'huffing and puffing' and, I am led to believe, because Hoon the Loon does not favour the two Special Air Servicemen's actions in the fighting for Tora Bora in Afghanistan.

Well that could be because the SAS NEVER fought in Tora Bora. All these stories by the Brit newspapers about hand to hand fighting was completely made up. Sorry but that's the truth.

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by fritz
Hi guys and galls.

This new topic is a one off and hopefully restricted to us Brits.

It appears to be harder and harder for our boys to earn the Victoria Cross because of civil service 'huffing and puffing' and, I am led to believe, because Hoon the Loon does not favour the two Special Air Servicemen's actions in the fighting for Tora Bora in Afghanistan.

Well that could be because the SAS NEVER fought in Tora Bora. All these stories by the Brit newspapers about hand to hand fighting was completely made up. Sorry but that's the truth.

Also, if I remember rightly, didn't the SAS turn down the offer of some VC's? Some politco or other put them forward but the SAS turned them down as they didn't want to devalue the prestige of the medal. And fair play to them for that.

Plus, it should also be said, that its never been easy to collect a VC. Most are awarded postumously, and those that aren't usually go to soldiers who were seriously injured at the time. Pvt Beharry being a perfect example

[edit on 12-4-2005 by ridcully]

This new topic is a one off and hopefully restricted to us
Brits.

To be fair the VC is given to servicemen in commonwealth nations.

Info

Im not sure if the above site has a complete list of winners but it gives a fair idea of the numbers and the people who have won the VC.
The last time an aussie was awarded the VC was during the Vietnam conflict I pressume the last New Zealand VC was during WW2.

Edit did some googling and found this.
16th April 2002
Royal Marines from 45 Commando commence Operation Ptarmigan to search and clear a mountain valley where Taliban and al-Qaeda forces are believed to have operated in Afghanistan, support is provided by Chinooks of 27 Squadron, RAF.

5 SBS Commandoes rescue 150 US Army Rangers from a 500-strong Taliban and al-Qaeda force in Afghanistan and are recommended for the US Congressional Medal of Honour. The SBS men respond to a mayday call made by satellite phone and scale a mountain behind the terrorist positions in the Sha-i-Kot region, south of Kabul, where they rain machine gun and mortar fire on the al-Qaeda and Taliban forces.
www.britains-smallwars.com...

Ok I know the Medel of honor isnt the VC but did anyone hear about this ? or is it BS?

[edit on 12-4-2005 by xpert11]

Originally posted by xpert11


5 SBS Commandoes rescue 150 US Army Rangers from a 500-strong Taliban and al-Qaeda force in Afghanistan and are recommended for the US Congressional Medal of Honour. The SBS men respond to a mayday call made by satellite phone and scale a mountain behind the terrorist positions in the Sha-i-Kot region, south of Kabul, where they rain machine gun and mortar fire on the al-Qaeda and Taliban forces.
www.britains-smallwars.com...

Ok I know the Medel of honor isnt the VC but did anyone hear about this ? or is it BS?

[edit on 12-4-2005 by xpert11]

It's complete BS, no offers have ever been made by the US, to award British soldiers the MOH. Even the story sounds like BS - 5 guys aparently carried a mortar+ammo and machineguns up the side of a cliff LOL - yeah right.

PS. The VC IS NOT superior to the MOH.

Originally posted by rogue1

PS. The VC IS NOT superior to the MOH.

Personally, I don't see how one Medal can be "superior" to another in terms of it being the medal being the highest award in the country. Is it because the pre-requisites are higher? More actions"above and beyond the call of duty" and stuff like that?

It's complete BS, no offers have ever been made by the US, to award British soldiers the MOH. Even the story sounds like BS - 5 guys aparently carried a mortar+ammo and machineguns up the side of a cliff LOL - yeah right.

PS. The VC IS NOT superior to the MOH.

Ok thanks for that.
Im an aussie who lives in NZ I would never imply that the MOH is superior to the VC I find that notion insulting . I dont know about the MOH but unless things have changed since Vietnam the yanks give out "lower"medels like candy.

Rogue it says mountain not cliff and SBS are trained to carry large ammounts of equipment.
The part about being nominated....well he has no chance in getting it and well wouldnt probably be allowed...

As well as the VC or lack of them with these recent wars. I don't see much of a Cenotaph or memorial place dedicated to those who lost their lives.
We have in the City of London. Statue dedicated to Wellington and a small cenotaph dedicated to WW1 and WW2. Also of course the Cenotaph in Whitehall.

Maybe the Illuminati can't be bothered to recognise the valiant efforts and courage shown by the soldiers anymore. Considering it's these soldiers (unaware of it of course, as I was when I served)who help these unemotional, sick facists to further their agenda.

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by xpert11


5 SBS Commandoes rescue 150 US Army Rangers from a 500-strong Taliban and al-Qaeda force in Afghanistan and are recommended for the US Congressional Medal of Honour. The SBS men respond to a mayday call made by satellite phone and scale a mountain behind the terrorist positions in the Sha-i-Kot region, south of Kabul, where they rain machine gun and mortar fire on the al-Qaeda and Taliban forces.
www.britains-smallwars.com...

Ok I know the Medel of honor isnt the VC but did anyone hear about this ? or is it BS?

[edit on 12-4-2005 by xpert11]

It's complete BS, no offers have ever been made by the US, to award British soldiers the MOH. Even the story sounds like BS - 5 guys aparently carried a mortar+ammo and machineguns up the side of a cliff LOL - yeah right.

PS. The VC IS NOT superior to the MOH.

I have looked and asked around on this topic. Apparently, this is a variation of an untrue story that has been circulating since the initial Afghanistan operations. There is simply no factual basis for the story.

My sources tell me that the CMOH is not awarded to soldiers of foreign nations, however, on many occasions foreign soldiers have been awarded service crosses (Navy Cross, Army Cross, Air Force Cross) for heroic action while working with US forces. The service crosses are the highest decoration for bravery, save the CMOH.

Only three CHOH's have been awarded since the end of the Vietnam War. 2 were awarded to US Delta Force personnel for the defense of downed US aircraft in Somalia (as was accurately portrayed in the movie "Blackhawk Down"), and the third was just recently awarded to an Army NCO who was fighting in Iraq. All three men died in the performance of their duties.

Comparing the VC with the CMOH serves no good purpose, and saying one award is higher than the other is just plain stupid. Both are comparable and unique in their own way. Men who receive the VC and the CMOH are worthy to be mentioned in the same reference, and the honor of their actions should not be sullied in pointless nationaistic debates.


[edit on 12-4-2005 by Pyros]

Rogue,

The VC is the highest award that a service member can be offered, no one on this thread have even dared to comment that our VC is better or greater than the American MOH, why must it always drop to a whos dick is bigger contest.

Folks,

I suppose in my opinion, as war has evolved and developed the "true" grit or spirit of the British service man in combat has been harder to prove I suppose, in the Second World War, there was more chances for the soldier to "earn" the medal, there where no gadets or high tech kit to help him fight, I suppose thats what people now adays views as the way the medal "should" be earned. With the current conflicts, the use of high tech gadets and then having a hidden enemy, where you can't just draw a line on the map and say on this side we are here and then on this other side are the Tangos, its harder to proven or I suppose show how they saved their mates.

Its a bloody shame, there are so many service men that have but their butts on the line and some didn't make it, and some how it never seems to reach the powers that be :/

- Phil

The U.S. mostly gives out the Silver Star and the Bronze Star to its troops. the MOH is not given out a lot there have only been 3 awarded in about 35 years, or since the end of Vietnam.

Here are pictures of the VC and the MOH.


VC


MOH

The most recent VC was given to Private Johnson Beharry of the 1st Battalion, Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment.

en.wikipedia.org...
Darn brave man....

I love the story of a amry officer during the land phase of D-Day into Beligum I think, basically this officer and his troops had to hold a small town for a day or two, during this time they were attacked over and over and over again by german troops, including tanks, basically this officer, ran round with his stick and some mills bombs and would run behind this tanks and drop this mills bombs into the tank hatches, after he ran out of those he used a bren gun and got as close as he could to the view sections on the tanks and shot them out, all this time he is doing it while under heavy fire infront of the brit line, it finally took a tank shell to stop him, he woke up in a field aid station outside the town, with wounds to his arms, legs, head etc then looked around, said thanks looked around again, grabbed a spare rifle and then headed back to the line, and then did the same thing OVER again, at this time he was running around the town in rags with a bazooca [spelling?]

The germans pulled out not long after, of the pows interviewed they mentioned a English Devil that had stalked their units over and over again as they watched rounds miss him no matter what they fired at it.

I don't do this story justice but if any one else remembers this story could they please post the name? Thanks

- Phil

Originally posted by gooseuk
why must it always drop to a whos dick is bigger contest.

Because the Americas are bigger and better than any one else in the world and dont forget that!

The fact that the VC is limited in its numbers and when the supply runs out so will the medal and a replacement will be unlikely.

As for the Americans who so say hand out medals like candy (Which alot of British Service people I talk to agree with), Britain is catching on quick to this hand out medals for eating all their food or some other crap. I hear alot of Brits turning down medals or not wearing them due to them not believing they earned them.

I havent ever read a Medal of Hour story since I never really thought about it. Yet Ive read alot of VC stories and daaaammnn the stuff some do in the heat of war, its amazing that in the most darkest time humans show their best.

I remember briefly one soilder who few the full ammos supply of grenades into charging enemies (Chinese if I remeber correctly)then on running out threw tin cans, rocks and wood anything he could get his hands on at them.

Another, A Brit WW2 had a grudge against german tanks and on running out of ammo for his piat took a mortar and fired it at almost point blank range from his waste. It led to him turning deaf nd loosing his sight temporaly but he didnt stop.

Iam sure the American's have there share of stories. Hitler always said his dream army would of been British Soilders and German officers .

Originally posted by Vowles

Iam sure the American's have there share of stories. Hitler always said his dream army would of been British Soilders and German officers .

Oh Yeah, when did he say this .... after Dunkirk ? :Lol::Lol::Lol:

Its been 144 since the MOH was first authorized as a medal, here are how many have been awarded and during what wars.

Since 1861, when Abraham Lincoln authorized the medal, 3,459 have been given. More than half — 1,522 — were received for actions in the Civil War.
Among the Medals of Honor awarded since then:
# World War I: 124
# World War II: 464
# Korean War: 131
# Vietnam War: 245

Don't know how things (award of medals) are now, but-

back in the 60's/70's a general rule of thumb was
most to least medals-
army
navy
marines/air force/foreign soldiers

Brits/Aussie/NZ/Soviet/Chinese, etc. seemed to have fewer for the same field service.

A NVA with a medal was a rarity as was an Israeli, Pakistani or Indian.

I also remember a French Foreign Legionnaire that had two medals and was thought to be a super soldier.

The US Army had some really neat colored ropes hanging on their shoulders as well.

The US also has campaign ribbons- these look like medals and many think they are medals, but they aren't. Some of the 'medals' a few posters have referred to are 'ribbons.'

American Lt. Colonels/Commanders and above seemed to have a chest full, whether battlefield or not.

Just a remembrance. The way I see it, anyone that serves is a hero.

Originally posted by JoeDoaks


A NVA with a medal was a rarity as was an Israeli, Pakistani or Indian.

When I was in Vietnam ( as a tourist ), I went to the war museum there. Anyway they awarded a medal to their soldiers for killing one or more Americans, it was called the American killer medal or something lame like that.