Elite American Air Force

Until the advent of escort fighters with enough legs , the fort`s and lib`s took fearful losses in daylight raids - they lost as many aircraft as the RAF had operational bombers!

And thats the crux of it - there were enough heavy bombers to take the loses - look at how many crews actually made there 25 mission tour of duty , then look at how many died on there first 3 missions.

Until mustangs the formations had to depend on each other for support - if an aircraft dropped out for any reason it was dead in the air.


I would have to say certain squadrons are very VERY good - but there are a few which are , IMO , mickey mouse outfits , who`s training is sub standard - although the 9thth would kick anyones ass

Overall , the RAF are well trained - standard line unit to standard line unit , i would say they are slightly better - especially the Tornado crews - to fly NAPE on there primary mission (which has now changed) all the time , on MANUAL controls , requires a huge amount of skill.

And i do rate the `tonka` above the strike eagle for its mission - but its not what i do, so i don`t care

Rogue,

Awww scared of a little quiz?

Poor baby.

My next question was going to be:

When did the Germans reach max output of their industry?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rogue,

Awww scared of a little quiz?

Poor baby.

My next question was going to be:

When did the Germans reach max output of their industry?

1944 - what your point being that the bombing made no difference ? lol, well the production rates would have been far higher without the USAAF.
Lets face facts here Bomber Command was only really good at one thing massacring cities - of course this dilberate policy would be seen as a war crime today.

We don't see Germans protesting today about the US bombing but we still see them protesting against the British. Just take the Queens trip to Dresden - talk about a slap in the face.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by rogue1]

Rogue,

Try reading up on some of the targets of the USAAF, if you want to talk war crimes.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rogue,

Try reading up on some of the targets of the USAAF, if you want to talk war crimes.

Cheers

BHR

Another typically vague answer from you. Why don't you give me some examples ?
Your knowledge seems very limited at best, maybe you should put down the picture books and try some with words.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by rogue1]

Rogue,

Did you ever hear of a USAAF general by the name of LeMay?

They have a little trophy named after him.

Try looking at his career and his writings.

I could post them here for you but why spoil it for you.

I look forward to your return.

Cheers

BHR

Oh, so what are you saying it was LeMay who ordered the British to terror bomb German cities ? Why don't you stick to a relevant answer.

Rogue,

What???

Are you trying to say that the US engaged in humanitarian bombing of Germany whilst the RAF was out looking for hospitals and nurseries to bomb?

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rogue,

What???

Are you trying to say that the US engaged in humanitarian bombing of Germany whilst the RAF was out looking for hospitals and nurseries to bomb?

BHR

No, I'm saying the US at least tried to put their bombs on a military target whilst the Brits just dropped their loads anywhere over a city, to cause maximum destruction to the civilian population.

Rogue,

Like the USAAF did during the Doolittle Raid, the Firebombing of Tokyo or lets not forget the not one but two A-bombs.

Then lets take a look at the precision bombing raids by the RAF like the Tallboy raids, the Upkeep Raids and the Amiens Raid.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules


Then lets take a look at the precision bombing raids by the RAF like the Tallboy raids, the Upkeep Raids and the Amiens Raid.

You mean the 0.0000001% of British bombing raids.

BHR
You stole my answer! The fire bombing was terrorism, pure and simple.

rogue
The US is not, has never been, and likely never will be a humanitarian military. From the Indian wars to Mai Lai, from Tokyo/Hiroshima/Nagasaki to Fallujah - your argument doesn't hold water. The Americans don't 'terror bomb?' I'm picturing a beautiful city burning, temples, homes, hospitals, schools - all burning. When people run screaming through the street and cower on the beach, that generally means they're terrified right?

In my experience dealing with US servicemen, I've stopped the harrassment/assault of a woman at a bus stop by two squids on leave in Manhattan, and once I had to arm lock and kneel on a flyboy till he calmed down - when I let him up he started crying. For Christ's sake, they desperately need to teach them some manners, or teach them to fight - the current situation is deplorable. They must have terrible self-esteem from getting kicked around so much.

Now, I've known quite a few marines, on both coasts, and in the middle, and I've got nothing but nice things to say about them. They're respectful, honest, and generally fun to be around. I've had mixed experiences with men from the Army, but I've never been physically assaulted by one. My dad was a DI for the Army, and understandably he was one mean sumbitch - but he never laid his hands on me. The most gung-ho seem to be Navy and Air Force from my experience. However, I haven't met any young Marines who participated in the gunship-assisted demolition of Fallujah. I'm pretty sure those guys are either grade A a-holes or feeling pretty damn guilty if they're not.

If the USAF needs training in anything, it's patience, decorum, and hand to hand. Same goes for the Navy. They oughta put some of those guys on a leash before they get hurt. One of my tenants (soon to be former tenant) was USAF, a young guy, and he has such an attitude. He gets drunk, and screams, and drinks, and screams, and screams and drinks. It's just silly. He's been smart enough to stop short of a physical confrontation, but his ego has driven him close on a couple of occasions - he just can't seem to muster the respect necessary for human interaction, even his girlfriend is embarassed of him, she's just too afraid of him to show him the door.

Individual pilots vary, and there are definitely aces in the air force of nearly every country. Saying one air force's pilots are superior is just a broad generalization, and it's rooted squarely in hubris. If you want to talk about 'on average' I'd say you need to do an analysis of a huge number of individuals to have any sort of accuracy.

WO,

Great post.

Rogue,

Despite your infantile over-exaggeration of the percentage of RAF area raids to precision raids it is still a better ratio than that of the USAAF during WW2.

Cheers

BHR

Wow!!! some of you guys have strange posts. This debate over who is more precision and humanitarian is very strange considering the history and times of which you folks speak.
To my knowlege...there was and still is nothing humanitarian about war. Wyrde one has it right.
With the tools available in WW2 the forces were hard pressed just to get to the targets and survive..much less bomb accurately and get back home. Deaths of civilians was merely collateral damage ..the cost of doing buisness.
Though it is not written about much in the books ..both the Germans and Allies discovered this truism ..the hard way. This is obvious when reading the accounts of bombing missions on both sides.
What we call "Humanitarian War" today .is only because of the tools developed to grant us more accuracy with the systems used. GPS and Laser guidance systems have afforded us the luxury of humanitarian war on a scale never before seen or used. Some of these tools and systems use hidden/concealed names like "Force Multipliers" "Surgical Strikes". Do not ever kid yourself about this. If war was to become sufficiently brutal today, the gloves would come off and we would not hesitate to go bare knuckled and this "humanitarian war" would be over.
Only our technological edge has given us the ability to be more humanitarian..at least on the surface. Do not become so enamoured of this technology ...lest we grow to fond of war itself!!

WO how long did it take you to think up those story’s about your imaginary service men?

“War is hell“, doing the right thing in a war is not always going to give you success, you have to do what must be done, either that or prolong the conflict until more lives get wasted.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by WestPoint23]

To the first Brit comment:

Are you suggesting that the British Air Force (RAF) is more elite than the U.S.?

Besides, you used an infantry example to prove how much the RAF is better than the U.S. Air Force(s).

hmm..I think I would rethink your statements, my friend.

-wD

Hey Yank,

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
To the first Brit comment:

Are you suggesting that the British Air Force (RAF) is more elite than the U.S.?

Besides, you used an infantry example to prove how much the RAF is better than the U.S. Air Force(s).

hmm..I think I would rethink your statements, my friend.

-wD

Whose post are you referring to?

Cheers

BHR

you guys really dont think much outside the box ..per se..

Elite forces....lol lol ..yes the American military are the most elite pet dogs ever bred for a specific purpose. They obey very well.

There is a ancient dictum in warfare..that states.."To the Victors go the Spoils"

The intresting thing which seems to escape most Americans..and oddly enough even the nightly news which is supposed to be looking out for you ...is that we as Americans keep getting involved in wars around the globe yet since WW1 we dont seem to bring back many spoils. Lots of bodies mind you ..but not really many spoils ..land richs ..etc etc..

The translation of this is that we have lost the war or ...conversely ..we really fought the war for someone else to keep the spoils...or at least control them. Someone else..not seen or spoken about...

Get a clue you guys...we are sitting on the second largest undeveloped oil pool in the world..in Iraq...yet Gas pices keep going up ..with no end in sight. If we were really in control of things and we wanted cheaper gas prices..we would have cheaper gas prices and no insurgents would stop us. Period..end of story ...no debate possible. It would happen overnight.
But someone else is obviously pulling the st rings...in the oil buisness..the purpose is obviously to keep much of the oil off the market ..not on the market...a view not expressed by the people in the n ews "looking out for us" Yes its about oil but not as most peoples think.
If we wanted cheaper oil prices..we would have told Saddam Hussein to go ahead and rape and loot all the OPEC nations and put all the ministers up against the wall and sell oil as a independent distributer. Did not happen did it.? We obviously went in to support OPEC. Twice we've done this . The news tries to blame OPEC for raising prices??? Wow!!!
My point is that our Military is not in control of this ..but answers the call of someone else...we are the boot lackeys for someone else...we protect their investments...often at our very high expense..in moneys and blood.
You cant get anything more noble and dumber than Americans in this arena. The American fighting soldier is the most effecient killer this world has ever turned loose...but politically the Amercan sucker is dumb..just plain dumb.
Hey ..how about those Redskins???
How about the Celtics..
How about the Gods of NASCAR??

Now there is something really meaningful and and important!!

Keep the Americans distracted with Drivel..while sacraficing them on the altar of buisness whores.

All this military stuff is very intresting to me ..as is history itself..but this elite stuff is a joke. You guys ought to know better. Orangetom

the m ain reason the Brits dont have a large air force or army as do we "Yanks" is that their economy cannot afford to support this world wide system of control. British history indicates that all attempts to hold their empire together..have been to maintain control of the keystones the key places in the world where trade comes or must navigate...Singapore..Gibralter , Suez..etc...These places and coaling stations for their ships. The brits have never economically been able to field a large land army or air force. They have however historically been able to field a large merchant fleet and the Navy to protect thier investments. That is ..however ..until WW2.
Since WW1 America has moved in and replaced the French ..who used to boot lackey for the british empire..and die around the world for their investments. You can tell this because when the wars were over and the take split up...the Brits got where the people and the stuff was and the French got the little outposts and stations which were miles from anything important...Morroco..., Sudan..Indochina...etc...
By the end of WW1 we had replaced the French ...who had fulfilled this role since after they lost to Wellington at Waterloo. No wonder the French particularly dont like us...we booted them from their rightful Glory.
But dont worry ..we Americans are as dumb as the French in this field and will die all over the world for only small bits and pieces of spoils. ...shedding our blood and huge expenses in materials only to come in last in the pecking order. Nothing like eliteism while your drowning !!
Dont dispair however..the Indians and Chinese may soon be trying out for this job and replace us if they dont turn on each other. Orangetom

WTF does reaping a countries oil fields have to do with being elite or very good?
Plus... to countries Japan and Germany, where do you think we got most of our tech for the cold war from. We got it form the Nazis, thy even took us to the moon.