So What REALLY Happened???

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Here's the thing; applying Occams Razor here doesn't seem to work. Here's why:

If Otto Warmbier was truly just some innocent student on vacation who got drunk and tore down a propaganda poster then he would have been an ideal bargaining chip for NK and their rhetoric. The very LAST thing NK would want is to have him have him die and turn into a major international incident.

On the other hand, if Warmbier was directly or indirectly associated with something else then this might be justification (in NK's mind) for some enhanced interrogation methods. In other words, he was worth the risk of an incident.

No simple answer here.

This was what got the illegal surgery ball rolling back then. NK government would need to question him over who was there or if he could remember anything. That fact that his health started go down hill would have caused NK to go into over drive trying to stop whatever was happening to him. The big cover-up would have been NK trying not to let anybody know that he got the amoeba there. Warmbeir's declining health would have been why NK didn't use him as a bargaining chip, and keeping quiet about it would only have served their purpose (since like it or not, NK is very afraid of what the US can do)

As I pointed out though in my last post, without having those questions answered it's hard to make heads or tails out of what happened.

a reply to: Guyfriday

But wouldn't there have been scars from the surgery remaining?

Or am I missing your point?

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: Guyfriday

But wouldn't there have been scars from the surgery remaining?

Or am I missing your point?

There are way to hide surgery scars depending on what organs are removed, but since no autopsy was preformed it would be hard to tell if anything did happen.

But no you are not missing my point, it was one of the issues that made me personally toss the idea in the trash bin, but a few people I know still think hat it might have occurred. Since this topic of Warmbeir has come up again, I thought I should float the idea out to ATS as a possible vent that might have happened.

a reply to: Guyfriday

While Warmbier may not have had a 'slice & dice' type autopsy, he did have thorough physical examinations, including X-rays, MRI and CAT-scans.

Your theory does have some interesting components though. Something to keep an eye on in the future.

--- PART 4 ---

Now, jAc hit on something important, the parents; the father in particular. jAc found some details I wasn't even aware of, but one thing I always found strange was how fast the father had almost immediate access to some of the higher levels in the State Department. Clearly, this guy knew people.

Even more interesting is the fact that the parents were told by Kerry's State to be silent...and they did. Why? Sure, the saving face angle, and not wanting to anger the NK's was probably a reality, but after months with no results, why?

So where exactly did the allegations of affiliations with some Methodist (extremist sounding) church come from, and the affiliation with the "Z Society" come from? Warmbier was Jewish...and the parents kept quiet about this, even to this day. Why? Where did the NK's even get this intel?? They couldn't have got it from Warmbeir, and I sincerely doubt they could have cooked it up on their own...it was too close to home for Warmbier. (unless there was some truth to it) Striking, isn't it?

The NK's may be good, but they ain't that good. So, did Warmbier really have some affiliation with these groups afterall which he revealed under duress? How else would they know?

There's just so many questions which don't add up in this case.

And, why did they go all the way back to Ohio with a critical patient onboard the life flight plane? If he was really that critical, why stop in Japan and then Alaska, and then fly all they way to Ohio. Well, flight planning would suggest they did this for fuel, but why? Japan has some of the most advanced medical care on earth, just like the US. If Warmbier was so critical why not stop in Japan (and have the parents meet him there)??? Why add another 18 hours onto their flight to get to Ohio (of all places)? I could see Minnesota (to Mayo) or California to UCLA Med Center, but...Ohio? (Doesn't make sense)

Why? Because it was a "show", that's why, but a show Warmbier''s parents must have been signed up with already. They already knew Otto Warmbier wasn't coming out of that coma before they left NK. He was just a corpse with a pulse for that plane ride. Why?

Something happened to Otto Warmbier on the night of March 16th, 2016, or the morning of March 17th, and I can confidently tell you, ATS...we're not getting the REAL story (or anything even remotely close to it)!

There's WAY more to this story!! And inquiring minds would like to know.

Deny Ignorance!!

--- END ---

He was taking the propaganda poster as evidence. He saw the small print at the bottom that read: "Educational Materials Provided By The Central Intelligence Agency, Langley, VA."

Hehe

Good thread. I hope you have added part 4! (ive only read page 1 so far)

Excellent thread! I come to ATS for conspiracies, mysteries and aliens ..... and you just gave me an excellent read .. thank you ... I look forward to some updates

a reply to: tadaman

I wonder if his detention coincided with Irans unmasking of the CIA's web-based communication system.

That's a very good question:

Warmbier's father stated that his son, en route to Hong Kong to complete a study abroad program, was traveling in China at the end of 2015 when he saw a company offering trips to North Korea

Wikipeadi

In loam's thread, we learned:

The CIA's communications suffered a catastrophic compromise. It started in Iran.

In 2013, hundreds of CIA officers — many working nonstop for weeks — scrambled to contain a disaster of global proportions: a compromise of the agency’s internet-based covert communications system used to interact with its informants in dark corners around the world. Teams of CIA experts worked feverishly to take down and reconfigure the websites secretly used for these communications; others managed operations to quickly spirit assets to safety and oversaw other forms of triage.

“When this was going on, it was all that mattered,” said one former intelligence community official. The situation was “catastrophic,” said another former senior intelligence official.

From around 2009 to 2013, the U.S. intelligence community experienced crippling intelligence failures related to the secret internet-based communications system, a key means for remote messaging between CIA officers and their sources on the ground worldwide. The previously unreported global problem originated in Iran and spiderwebbed to other countries, and was left unrepaired — despite warnings about what was happening — until more than two dozen sources died in China in 2011 and 2012 as a result, according to 11 former intelligence and national security officials.

So the unmasking took place a few years before Otto's visit, so it is conceivable that if Otto was somehow involved with CIA operations, then his movements could have become known to hostile actors.



Following up a little more on Michael C. Warmbier, I found mentions of him many times in the congressional records of promotions throughout his service in the Navy, the last one being April 2000, he was promoted to Captain:

THE FOLLOWING NAMED OFFICERS FOR APPOINTMENT
TO THE GRADE INDICATED IN THE UNITED STATES NAVY
UNDER TITLE 10, U.S.C., SECTION 624:
To be captain

...

MICHAEL C. WARMBIER III, 0000

Congressional Record(direct .pdf link)

I also found a mention of him in the Cincinatti Enquirer from 1930:

Publication:
The Cincinnati Enquirer i
Location:
Cincinnati, Ohio
Issue Date:
Tuesday, January 7, 1930
Page:
Page 14

newspapers.com

Can't access the page unless one signs up, and I'm not quite arsed enough to do that but it is there if anyone might want to have a look.

Michael Warmbier passed away less than a month after Otto was convicted in Korea:

WARMBIER, Michael C. beloved husband of the late Joan Marie Warmbier (nee McGeein), devoted father of Susan (Ric) Aielli , Michael (Susan), Don (Kim) and Fred (Cindy) Warmbier, loving grandfather of Eric (Carolyn), Alex (Sarah) and Maria (T.J. Male) Aielli, Mikey and Mary Warmbier, Kristi and Abby Warmbier, Otto, Austin and Greta Warmbier and great-grandfather of Clara Aielli. Cherished uncle to many nieces and nephews and loving companion of Rita Neal. Passed away April 4, 2016. Age 85. Friends may call at St. John Church, 9080 Cincinnati-Dayton Rd., West Chester, Thursday from 9:30 A.M. until the Mass of Christian Burial at 11 A.M. Memorial donations may be made to the charity of choice.

Michael C. Warmbier

From reading the condolence messages, he was well loved and missed. There is one message that I thought was a bit odd, but it may just be a strange typo:

Lavon - Apr 14, 2016
Thought it wo'lndut to give it a shot. I was right.

Even taking into account the possibility of fat fingering a message on a phone, this particular one just seems out of place.

Anyway, in the midst of all the hullabaloo in the news with Sessions, Rosenstein, the Thousand Oaks shooting, Ginsberg falling, etc. etc., I hope this thread doesn't get lost.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Again, great research!

Sorry for not responding sooner. I was just letting some of the other current events dust settle before re-engaging the discussion. I'm fairly confident there is something to all of this, and it will be interesting to see if we can ferret some of it out.

At the moment, I am not really seeing a hard connection to the CIA communications issue unless there's some indirect connection. Regarding the funeral home message, I don't think that really means anything. Funeral homes are notorious for having unsecured websites for comments (I guess to get more comments and condolences). In fact, they are usually a prime email harvesting area for spammers and spear-physhing as a result. So, it's not uncommon to see all kinds of crazy stuff on some of those sites.

It's pretty clear to me there is a whole lot more to this story than the official one. Just to re-cap a little, here's why:

1. Some drunken college student parties it up on New Years Eve and has the bright idea to go steal a souvenir in the form of a NK propaganda poster. This sets up a perfect situation for NK. First, it truly is a BIG deal (and a BIG no-no) in NK, so there are clear and legitimate reasons to detain Warmbier. Nothing sketchy at all here. NK is fully within their right to detain him. Their country, their rules. So, NK gets a freebie.

2. From NK's perspective they've got a lily white college kid, pure as the driven snow, in custody which they can use as a bargaining chip for some really HEAVY and REAL issues (things like International Sanctions and trade issues). Why do they think this? Because this type of a prisoner (hostage) will be a BIG deal in the US media. This case will get TONS of attention and media coverage! "Innocent college student taken prisoner by evil NK" Warmbier is what one might consider a "Blue Chip" bargaining / negotiating commodity. He's not some religious extremist or nutcase the US won't care about. NK knows US diplomats will be all over this one. He represents a golden opportunity for them to get the US to the bargaining table which historically has been their #1 priority (and to date they had failed). I can't underscore this enough. Warmbier was a HUGE value asset for the NK's. No way would they allow anything to happen to him!!! They wouldn't want a single scratch on him, because every scratch only diminishes their position of strength at the negotiating table further.

3. The outside World is going to be sympathetic to Warmbier's plight. They will view it as some dumb kid who got drunk and did something stupid; happens every day. They won't see it as a Capital offense, and therefore will pay close attention to all the developments. This just further enhances NK's position at the bargaining table.

4. But something DOES happen to Warmbier, and in a very bad way. In fact, what happens to Warmbier is an absolute nightmare of the worst kind for NK. Their Golden Goose has suddenly now become critically ill on their watch. I can assure you, the news of this development went straight to Kim Jung Un himself...and it was not received well at all.

5. Remember, the outside World knows none of this. All they know is Warmbier is a prisoner, and he's been convicted and sentenced. What they don't know is, on the very same day of his sentencing he's fallen critically ill somehow and the NK's are desperately trying to save his life, else they lose one of the most important bargaining chips they've had since the USS Pueblo in 1968. That's just how important Warmbier is to them.

So, now we have to examine what could have happened to Warmbier and, more importantly, why. So let's start with the "why" part first, because the "why" really drives this whole theme.

We know it couldn't have been botulism, so what situation could have caused someone to all but kill Warmbier the night of his sentencing? Here are some possibilities, starting with the easiest first:

A.) Warmbier has told the NK's something in his 2.5 months in custody before his trial. Whatever that someting is, the NK's are very interested and want to know more. They decide they need to do something which will keep him in NK for a much longer period of time. So, they decide to go public with the trial and sentencing. This will keep him on lockdown until they can find out more. Following his sentencing they take him in for more interrogation and drug him. There's a drug interaction of some kind, or the NK's just totally screw the pooch and accidentally OD him, and he goes into a coma. They put him in the hospital and leave him unattended and he goes into arrest. When they check on him they find he's in arrest and resuscitate him, but now he's suffered irreversible brain damage.

B.) Warmbier either uncovers something (or someone 'thinks' he's uncovered something) which the outside World can't find out about. Could be as simple as some secret operation associated with his tour group, or a deep cover operative, etc. and the first opportunity to silence him is the point at which his handlers change from high party officials (before his trial) to regular officials (after his trial).

C.) ??

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

So weird I was just talking about this the other day with my work colleague interesting you posted a thread !

Just checking but Is the guy even real ?

There were no scar tissues on his body , and no fractures in his skull , suggesting no torture of any kind

Although that doesn't rule out psychological torture, maybe they experimented on him with exotic psychotropic drugs and he slipped into a coma during a session !

originally posted by: tadaman
I wonder if his detention coincided with Irans unmasking of the CIA's web-based communication system.

This rang a bell, as we actually had ATS individuals personally connected to the following intelligence debacle. I wonder if it's part of the bigger picture? Great thread!

a reply to: ToeflBarron

good thread!!! I remember reading about the travel company he booked this trip with.....they specialized in trips to not so safe places....their tag line.."travel where your mom doesn't want you to go"

It was approximately six weeks from his arrest to his trial and he was of course in custody the whole time. Any information they wanted from him they already had by the time the trial came around. Tearing down a propaganda poster isn't exactly covert op kind of stuff. Its more like stupid college kid stuff. Unless he was trying to get arrested for something that was too simple to result in a draconian response. Either way, he got the response he didn't want. So did he know something NK didn't want him to repeat or did NK want to keep him quiet about the way they treated him? If NK has any brains at all they would treat him well and use that as an example of their "benevolent nature".

I have to believe he was questioned for six weeks in whereabouts unknown, had his dog and pony show trial, then immediately landed in a coma he never recovered from. It might seem clear the intent was to silence him but return him home alive and, er, well. But that may not be the case. I know a little about oxygen deprivation having experienced it myself. There is an extremely fine line between dizziness, hallucination, and brain damage. If waterboarding occurred the coma and subsequent death may have been the result of secondary drowning.

Secondary drowning is often confused with dry drowning though they are two different conditions. Dry drowning is when a little water enters through the nose or mouth triggering a spasm in the throat which blocks the airway causing suffocation. In secondary drowning a little water does make it in to the lungs. This water causes inflammation over time, up to 24 hours later, that makes it difficult or impossible to breath. Warmbier may have been waterboarded, dropped for the night, then found unconscious the next morning. With all the sputtering and coughing going on secondary drowning could easily be mistaken for the usual effects of waterboarding.

The circumstances don't add up for this to be some kind of spy vs. spy issue. But it does seem plausible that it was just an overzealous interrogation that went awry in the middle of the night with no witnesses.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Great post!

The Truth Is Out There...

But it will never see the light of day.