So What REALLY Happened???

a reply to: szino9

Just ponder on this for a second...

Imagine a meeting in some dimly lit hi-tech conference room in the basement of some D.C. building.

'Mr. Warmbier, before I can tell you what I'm about to tell you I need you to sign this document, and initial it here, here and here. This is an oath of secrecy under penalty of serious federal crimes if violated with mandatory terms in a federal penitentiary. Please follow me.

(door shuts)

I don't know how to tell you this any other way than to just say it straight; your son was unknowingly working for the Central Intelligence Agency trying to ferret out a known Chinese mole who had high level intelligence on the North Korean regime. We had been monitoring your son very closely throughout, but then our sources lost contact with him. ...'

There is one interesting idea that got tossed around for a bit; Balamuthia

I'll explain the conspiracy here,
Balamuthia is the more aggressive form ( or technically family member of) naegleria, or better known as the brain eating amoeba. Nobody knows where Balamuthia comes from, or even how it is spread. What is known about it is very little.

From it's wiki page

Balamuthia mandrillaris is a free-living amoeba that is known to cause the deadly neurological condition known as granulomatous amoebic encephalitis (GAE). B. mandrillaris is found in the soil and water and was first discovered in 1986 in the brain of a baboon that died in the San Diego Wild Animal Park. B. mandrillaris can infect the body through skin wounds or by inhaling the dust containing Balamuthia. Balamuthia has been isolated in nature. It is believed to be distributed throughout the temperate regions of the world. This is supported somewhat by the presence of antibodies to Balamuthia present in healthy individuals. The genus Balamuthia is named in honor of the late parasitologist William Balamuth (1914–1981) for his contributions to the studies of parasitic and free-living amoebae

But here's the important part

According to a MMWR report published in September 2010, two confirmed cases of Balamuthia transmission occurred through organ transplantation in December 2009 in Mississippi. Two kidney recipients, a 31-year-old woman and a 27-year-old man, suffered from post-transplant encephalitis due to Balamuthia. The woman died in February 2010 and the man survived with partial paralysis of right arm. The CDC was notified by a physician on December 14, 2009, about possible transplant transmission in these two patients. Histopathologic testing of donor and recipient tissues confirmed the transmission. Two other patients who received heart and liver transplants from the same donor, but in different hospitals, were placed on pre-emptive therapy and remain unaffected. A second cluster of transplant-transmitted Balamuthia in Arizona was reported in the same weekly report. Four recipients were identified, two from Arizona (liver and kidney-pancreas), one from California (kidney), and another from Utah (heart). Recipients from Arizona—a 56-year-old male and a 24-year-old male—both succumbed to encephalitis within a span of 40 days from transplantation. The other two were placed on pre-emptive therapy after the first two were reported and remain unaffected

So the suspicion was that a ell paying person needed an organ transplant, Warmbier was a genetic match, and the illegal operation took place in NK without governmental approval. NK needed to keep it's image as being fully under control by the Kims, and they needed to know who was involved in this operation. After only a few days in custody he amoeba got into Warmbier's brain and that was why when he did make his statement he seemed out of it, then a few days later he was brain dead. The NK only kept him alive through the use of medical machines, but his brain was already mush by the time he arrived back in the US.

That's the theory that got passed around at the time, but if we were to believe this theory, then we would need to know:
Who was the recipient of whatever organ Warmbier had removed?
Why didn't the US autopsy how that any operation was conducted on Warmbier?
Who in the NK regime could have overseen this operation without having the Kims being aware of it?
If the contamination of this amoeba took place in NK (which as we now know is very possible due to their health issues there) why hasn't the recipient of Warmbeir's organ also been affected (or have they, and if so is that person just chasing new organs while taking meds to stim off and amoebic progress in the brain)?

Anyways, that was the idea. I doubt that's what happened though so your guess is as good as ours were at the time.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

You are a great writer I have to say, I would probably read every story you could come up with

Imagine that same dimly lit hi-tech conference room, where they tell the parents "its no easy way to say this but your son passed away while he was in a NK prison. This brought us two options. 1. we will retaliate or 2. for the greater good we will make sure that you and your family will be taken care of for the rest of your lives...

I am just playing around, probably way to much movies for me...

originally posted by: CharlesT
a reply to: 35Foxtrot

deprivation through "an unknown insult more than a year prior to death."
"chronic anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy."

Does this indicate physical trauma of unknown origin to the brain or can trauma somewhere else such as strangling result in this diagnosis?

To me, the "chronic," part sounds like repeated interrogations during which oxygen flow to the brain was restricted and/or cut off.

The "unknown insult," could be whatever enhanced interrogation (or more extreme) methods they used.

It could also be a hanging as noted above, but not with the "chronic," aspect. Hence, why I say it was repeated incidents of something like water boarding or stress positions or worse.

Some of the drugs used in interrogations can also restrict respiration. Could've been something as simple as getting him hooked on heroin to use that addiction (and withdrawal) to apply pressure to him. There are more exotic drugs as well that make people more pliable.

My main point, I guess, is the NKs believed he had information and tried (with or without success; I'll bet on with success - everyone talks) repeatedly to get any and all info from him they could. Someone got overzealous or f'ed up and he went into a coma. It's easy to do.

Here's even another thing to contemplate...

No one ever saw or talked to Warmbier until Yun, Flueckiger and "one other" State Department diplomat flew to Pyongyang and first saw him on June 12, 2017, the day before he left on the flight back to the US. The only people allowed on the plane were Yun, Flueckiger, the two pilots and "one other" person. Those are the only people, besides the North Koreans, who actually saw his condition while still in NK.

Who's to say Warmbier didn't walk onboard that flight under his own power? Once aboard the plane stopped at an airbase in Japan, and one in Anchorage, before arriving in Ohio. But nobody but those on the plane saw Warmbier until he arrived in OH.

**shrug** It's a long flight you know!



P.S. (and I will write a PART 4, but I can't right now)

Just a thought- at one point 'mangled teeth' was mentioned.
Were hollowed out teeth with hidden suicide pills for spies ever really a thing, or is that just in movies?

Maybe this kid was working for someone, and that's why his location was unaccounted for a few hours before he was "seen" on a cctv.
BTW, was that part ever proven? I mean, once arrested they can say pretty much whatever they want, and even fabricate evidence...

a reply to: lordcomac

There's some grainy video which has been released showing a figure which looks like Warbier in a darkened hallway taking down a sign.

It really doesn't matter though, whether it's real or not. The whole sign incident is likely either a complete ruse, or a necessary distraction, to use as an excuse to play out the rest of the incident.

The key piece is what happened in the hours following Warbier's conviction/sentencing.

And this really is the key part too when you think about it. Sure, they could have used all sorts of enhanced interrogation techniques on him. And, one could even argue they convicted him to keep him longer for more interrogations, BUT...

None of that makes any sense when you consider the fact he appeared on national television just hours before and appeared to be in good health. They couldn't have done too much to him prior to this because he would have been a zombie on TV (and he wasn't). So, why that night? What happened that night?

I can tell you one very important thing which almost certainly happened that night...his chain of custody changed (and that's a big clue here). Different people where in charge of handling him before his trail then after his trial. And isn't it curious that this change in custody almost immediately led to his being silenced. I wonder why?

ETA - That night was the first time anyone outside of Kim's inner-circle had access to him. And, that very night he went brain dead. Curious, don't you think?

a reply to: 35Foxtrot

I read this as an anoxic brain injury, which can happen in a very short period of time. That's why many patients who are resuscitated through CPR and other life saving measures often still do not recover or ever wake up. The brain doesn't do well without oxygen, not even for a little while.

Hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy is an odd term for them to use for an adult, and still doesn't really refer to chronic hypoxia over weeks or months. It happens (typically to infants during childbirth), and the damage is most often severe and permanent.

I'm thinking his anoxic brain injury occurred from one event. No idea what it was, but I think that his coma was the result of one episode of respiratory failure, not a cumulative effect. Strangulation, hanging, a drug overdose, or even botulism.

If we're throwing out ideas, I'll go with drug overdose. Strangulation might have done damage to the trachea that would still be identifiable months later, but a drug overdose would not. And they already said he was taking sleeping pills, so maybe he was also using narcotics (or something else) and overdosed, intentionally or not.

a reply to: Weagle

Drug overdose, or drug interaction, are certainly possibilities.

Botulism is definitely out (like it was ever really considered) because you're not going to contract botulism and go brain dead in a few hours.

As some here explore the possibilities of him being an under cover operative. After reading the GQ article I didn't see any evidence revealed where he had the opportunity to undergo training to be a career agent. Not saying he didn't receive training. Just saying the article didn't indicate any.

But then again, how much training is needed to try to smuggle a propaganda poster out of NK?

For the public, his death will remain a mystery.

One point is clear. The government used his situation as an opportunity to pressure NK.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

The coroner report stated the injury occurred around a year before his release.
""an unknown insult more than a year prior to death."
A good who dun it!

Thank you so much for this thread. I never really looked into any of this when it happened and you've managed to pique my curiosity.

And so, inquisitiveness aroused, I went looking around a little.

I took a look at news stories for Wambier prior to 01/01/2016 and happened across this:

Meet Fred Warmbier, entrepreneur. Warmbier owns a small business, Finishing Technology, located near Cincinnati, Ohio. The company finishes and anodizes metal parts –and is growing rapidly.

And this is indeed Otto's father:

James Evans, Fred Warmbier, Jerome Turner and Mark Hutton discussing a process improvement to support growth. With fast growth, Warmbier and his team find they spend more time in huddles figuring out how to reduce and manage complexity. [Photo by Jack Sanborn]

Introducin g A Small Business Owner Who Discovered Growth Is A Blessing And A Curse

Fred Warmbier speaks as his wife Cindy looks on during a symposium on possible ways of international cooperation to urge the Democratic Republic of Korea to take concrete actions to improve the human rights situation in the DPRK at the United Nations headquarters in Manhattan, New York, US, May 3, 2018. (Yonhap-Reuters)

Warmbier’s parents to attend hearing next month

This lead me here:

Since 1976, Finishing Technology has been one of the leading providers of specialty chemical products, equipment and services. To ensure our customers receive better mass finishing solutions, our seasoned staff brings an intuitive understanding and collaborative approach to every project. After a rigorous review of all alternatives and options, you can be sure our solutions will meet your aesthetic, functional and economic criteria.

Finishing Technology, Inc.

This company has been in operaiton for quite some time:

FINISHING TECHNOLOGY, INC.

Company Number
509788
Status
Active
Incorporation Date
6 January 1978 (almost 41 years ago)
Company Type
CORPORATION FOR PROFIT
Jurisdiction
Ohio (US)
Registered Address

WEST CHESTER BUTLER OHIO
United States

Agent Name
MICHAEL WARMBIER
Agent Address
11949 READING ROAD, CINCINNATI, OH, 45241
Directors / Officers

MICHAEL WARMBIER, agent, 3 Apr 1998-
MICHAEL WARMBIER, incorporato

Open Corporates

Further, this company looks to be Otto's grandfather's company and Otto's father started there as an intern:

During high school Mr. Warmbier interned at his father’s industrial parts-finishing business north of Cincinnati, Finishing Technology, Inc., according to the LinkedIn page. His father, Fred Warmbier, didn’t return messages seeking comment.

Mr. Warmbier’s college pursuits reflect an interest in both business and international issues.

He is double-majoring in economics and commerce with a concentration in finance, and minoring in global sustainability, according to the website of the Alternative Investment Fund, a student-run organization at UVA that offers training for careers in investment management.

The fund’s website said Mr. Warmbier, a junior, joined as a freshman and spent a summer studying abroad at the London School of Economics, which allowed him to travel in Europe

Former Detainees in North Korea Recount Pattern of Despair

For those who may not be aware, there are few connections between the LSOE and the CIA, one of the most infamous being:

Former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson and his wife, C.I.A. operative Valerie Plame, are at the center of controversy over President Bush’s bogus claim, in last year’s State of the Union address, that Saddam had tried to buy uranium in Africa. ...
After the Gulf War she was sent to the London School of Economics, and from there to the College of Europe, an international-relations school in Bruges.

Double Exposure

The CIA must have a level of comfort with the LSOE if they are sending their people there, or at least that would seem to be to the case to me.

All of that to ask this, is it possible Fred Warmbier was CIA and Otto is a 2nd (maybe even 3rd, if Michael Warmbier was a 'company man') generation spook?

a reply to: CharlesT

Well personally, I don't think he was a spook, not knowingly anyway. I think he might have gotten caught up in something on accident.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Interesting!!

Great research!!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Thank you!

Following up:

Get the report onMichael C. Warmbier , age 87
Get more details
Has lived in Has worked at Has studied at Related to DOB Phone Address
West Chester, OHCincinnati, OH Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center Ohio University Greta WarmbierAustin WarmbierFred WarmbierOtto Warmbier
Joan Warmbier

Intelius

The above is garbled, but I thought the emphasized but might be of interest.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Okay, botulism is a huge reach. Although who even thinks to make that up? I think drug overdose fits the bill nicely, but who knows.

There are so many odd things about this case. The video of him being carried off the plane seems weird. And it seems strange to me that he died so quickly after returning to the US. It's not like he was on a ventilator that was turned off. His parents requested that his feeding tube be removed, but even if they did it as he came off the plane (they didn't), his death happened fairly quickly.

His parents requested that an autopsy not be performed (I'm surprised they were allowed to do this). They also reported that he was blind and deaf, not sure if that's ever been confirmed? And then there was the thing with them talking about his teeth being rearranged, which was specifically discredited by the coroner's office.

So many questions!

Interesting, to me at least, is that the nuclear test conducted by Norht korea is listed in the lawsuit filed by the parents:

19. Just four days later, North Korea claimed that it had conducted a successful test of a nuclear hydrogen bomb. It stated that the test was conducted to enhance its self-defense capabilities against the United States. This was the first time in three years that it had reported detonating a nuclear weapon.

Case 1:18-cv-00977-BAH(direct .pdf link)



Flyingclaydisk, check your pm's

a reply to: verschickter

NK is just lucky it is playing ball with the current diplomatic efforts.

There for awhile, I thought they were about to get turned into crispy little critters

Regardless, diplomacy doesn't bring back the dead. That is why it is more important than ever IMO to ensure their legacy is ending the NK nuclear threat possibly saving millions of lives in the region.

Here's the thing; applying Occams Razor here doesn't seem to work. Here's why:

If Otto Warmbier was truly just some innocent student on vacation who got drunk and tore down a propaganda poster then he would have been an ideal bargaining chip for NK and their rhetoric. The very LAST thing NK would want is to have him have him die and turn into a major international incident.

On the other hand, if Warmbier was directly or indirectly associated with something else then this might be justification (in NK's mind) for some enhanced interrogation methods. In other words, he was worth the risk of an incident.

No simple answer here.

I wonder if his detention coincided with Irans unmasking of the CIA's web-based communication system.