Did the Welsh build Stonehenge?

Hi all, I currently live in Wales having previously lived in South East England, and have come to understand that the welsh word for river is, afon.
A very similar sounding word is the name of quite a few rivers in England. Think Stratford on Avon.
There is even an Avon near Stonehenge.
So, is it probable that the welsh were more prevalent in the UK and introduced this word.
If so, and bear in mind that some of the stones at Stonehenge came from Wales, is it possible that Stonehenge was some sort of indicator of the extent of Welsh occupation?

a reply to: dowot

Welsh people could be most ancient in UK, DNA suggests

www.bbc.co.uk...

Seems likely.

Thanks Kester for the link, must do more research on this.
(This will give the welsh more ammunition to dislike us English! Oh dear.)
I have to admit that the welsh tend to stick together in family groups, very often living or moving to be near family.

If so you could go one step further and say there were no English in those days and Britain was mainly a Celtic movement in those times.Historicly the best view is many lands be it Britain or otherwise were comprised of different tribes. Thats about all we know for now. a reply to: dowot

a reply to: dowot

It takes a change of perspective to imagine life in the British Isles in the centuries before and after Stonehenge was created.

Forget about counties, countries and the seas looked very different too. We were closer to what we call France because the 'English channel' was narrower. The North Sea had 'Doggerland' so people and trade goods could just about pass from mainland Europe into these isles. Arguably, it remained barely passable during the Stonehenge period and its predecessor 'wood henge,' but if it wasn't, lots of human traffic crossed very recently.

Wales wasn't distinct from England and South West England was considered part of NW France in the sense it was straddled by the same peoples. The whole isles and Northern Europe were populated by tribes and some were united under common causes - early unions as it were. We know about much of this because we've found hand axes from Austria in SW England and pine resin from Spain on ancient bodies in Ireland. It's worth pointing out that the Celts weren't big on writing so we depend on the histories of those who fought them to tell us what they were like. We depend on archaeologists to show us what they created and how they lived.

I'm painting a very broad picture here to make the point that 'nations' didn't really exist over here at the time. Despite that, there were trades and human movements. Words and root words flowed along these trade routes and sloshed around the populations. It's why NW European languages are a mongrel mixture of French, Latin, Norse, Celtic etc.

a reply to: ancientthunder

There's a list of the Tribes of Britain here. Not that I trust lists.
roman-britain.co.uk...

Of course, boundaries were not as they are today and people moved, possibly in groups as their leaders wanted.
Back to Stonehenge, it used to be considered as being built by Druids, which I have a feeling came from Wales!
Certainly the stones being moved from Wales must indicate that the people who built it, must have been aware of the stones, and of their importance.
Reply to ancientthunder

a reply to: dowot

You raise a good question.
But sticking with the actual stones, they do appear to be Welsh.

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a reply to: dowot
Many English rivers have names of Celtic origin, like Avon, as you point out. This illustrates how Celtic England used to be before it became English. When I was at school, this was being taught in History lessons, with maps. The location of the Celtic tribes at the time of Caesar's invasion, the early Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, the division agreed between Alfred and Guthrum...
I have a suspicion, based on the layouts of modern museums, that current History lessons focus more upon lifestyles.

a reply to: Cymru


More interesting links, although a little bit dramatised.

The mention of Mr T Darvill raised a smile, he was one of our lecturers at Uni and wrote an interesting book on the subject, which he persuaded all his students to buy!

I came across this video, www.youtube.com..., which shows just how large the Stonehenge site is. Unfortunately they do not offer any conclusions but do raise awareness. No mention is made of the processional way up from the little river beside Stonehenge.

There is one other feature of this whole site, which gets little mention and that is the cursus.

a reply to: dowot

Yep. With song, tone, and human voice.

There are a number of river Avon's in Britain, and the Scottish ones don't have proximity to Wales, but who can tell how the language influences in Britain over the last few millennia have settled.

Stonehenge has stones from Wales and places like Marlborough Downs. Also, to note that Stonehenge is just a part of a massively rich ancient landscape that encompasses the places like Avebury to the north.

Anyway, the link to Wales is well established, but whether the Welsh built Stonehenge itself will never be known, although the remains of people from area now known as Wales have been discovered, such as the Boscombe Bowman, although admittedly he may have come from Cumbria.

a reply to: dowot


What you have to remember is that there are probably two very ancient group's of people still present in the UK, the Pict of Scotland (renamed that from Caledonia after Nordic-Irish invaders later invaded it) and AMONG the welsh there is also the remnant of the pre-Roman period Britain's, remember though that those old Celt's were actually invaders themselves to a very large degree whom originated - as a culture - it is assumed from pottery in what is today southern Germany south of the Rhein.

When the Celt's invaded it is likely that earlier Britain's wanting to preserve THERE tradition's and identity may have sought shelter in the highland's of Scotland and Wales as well as presumably among the much older and worn down mountains' of England.

Now to be fair to the Celt's while they WERE an invasive force they were also more of a warrior cast society so once they invaded anyone could reach the top of there heirarchy if they had the skill's and liking of there fellow warriors so most of there conquered land's mostly retained there original ethnic make up with the initial wave of Celtic warrior's merely replacing there top echelon's of society as well as a change in there culture to a varient upon the Celtic way of life and this at one time allowed the Celtic world to spread from as far as Anatolia in the east to Scotland - at least the lowland's - and Eira in the west.

Then came the Roman conquests and they indeed did mix people's a bit more with some Roman period genetic markers here in the UK even having been traced as far as asia and africa likely brought here by the Roman's though remember probably from the time of the Saxon's we also have at least one male line in Cumbria that is of Mongolian ancestry which may be due to those Saxon's themselves having been conquered and then forcibly allied to there own Hunnic invaders.

And let's not mix up the Saxon's with the Angles, Dane's and Norwegian's each of whom had at least a little genetic uniqueness to add to the mix.

But for the most part like people from the other nations of the UK the English are actually mostly genetically of ancient British what we may wrongly refer to as Celtic derivation since it would seem that while the men were put out those British woman - whom at least one Roman writer before there time had referred to as Beautiful - ended up often slaves and even married to these invaders so there children were then only part Saxon, Angle, Norse etc.

Meanwhile the successive invasions of the Angle's and others and eventually the Norman's drove many into the land's of Wales though it is proper to point out that the modern welsh as well as having plenty of ancient genetic British ancestry are really descendant's of ROMANO Britain's, that is Britain's mixed with Roman ancestry.

This leaves only the Irish as the last mostly untainted vestige, but in fact they are far from it since the Irish were invaded by the Norman's and the Norse before them, old Brian Beru the Irish king whom eventually led a successful uprising against the Norse settlers actually only won because a lot of his own men were actually also of Viking ancestry.

And let's not forget that both trade and gene's travel, these island's have been a part of the classical world trading tin and other material's since the year of zero so places like Cornwall probably have ancient Greek, Etruscan, North and West African including Carthaginian ancestry though since the Cornish are so mixed these day's and so few true Cornish remain that genetic material is most likely mixed into the greater British population ages ago.

I see myself simply as British and I have a few genetic markers from other places as well.


The stone's were Carved and laid down by Ancient British that is good enough for me but radio isotopes in the remains do show that these people had a very strong link to wales.

a reply to: dowot

no, the rocks were from wales, jesus

a reply to: DISRAELI

History literally isn’t taught in schools anymore.

Dowot, only the blue stones are from Wales. Apparently they ring when struck

originally posted by: dowot
is it possible that Stonehenge was some sort of indicator of the extent of Welsh occupation?

Occupation????

a reply to: dowot

I could never understand the intrigue of Stonehenge,a bunch of large rocks put in a semi circle,many animals do the same,maybe a bunch of giants got bored one day

Ill say this stonehenge is not anything like it was when it was built. It has been renovated several times. Started in 1901the site you see today is a total fabrication.

It started with a stone that was straightened and set in concrete in 1901, six further stones in 1919 and 1920, three more in 1959 and four in 1964. There was also the excavation of the Altar stone and re-erection of the Trilithon in 1958. In other words nothing you see today is original and has been recasted in concrete.

a reply to: angelchemuel

Occupation as in they dwelt in/owned that part of the country as opposed to any other "Tribe".

It was a signal of power, like a hill fort?

If the Avenue was processional then it was either something coming from the river or going to it, but what? The river is called the Avon.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yes it was "renovated" to make it more of an attraction, but recasted in concrete,I think not, they are the original real stones put into their original holes, I've been there.

They have even identified the exact position where one of those stones came from with-in the quarry, according to the second of the links given in the 7th post. That's if I understand what is said.