New dwarf planets & Planet IX Unknown Variable in CETI may explain UFO with other Orbital Planes

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: MrBuddy


There's a lot of perhaps and wishful thinking in your statement, all we can go on so far is the life we do know about that exists here, if there was evidence of intelligent life on this other planet which never gets close to our sun don't you think that our solar system would be full of intelligent life? we still my find some form of life in our solar system especially the moons of Saturn but intelligent life if its found will be outside our solar system in my opinion.

I do not take the beliefs of civilizations that far pre-date ours lightly. Zecharia aside, many civilizations from India, China, South America, and Iraq all claim knowledge that not only do aliens exist, but they have visited regularly for thousands of years. Ancient people didn't have biases like we do. They had no agenda...like we do.

I would also mention that most of the world believes in UFO's or aliens. The OP isn't claiming that the aliens would even live on that planet, and neither am I. Like I mentioned earlier, perhaps it's a base of operations. Perhaps they want to be in this solar system to keep an eye on us. Maybe there's a wormhole close. Hell, maybe the "rock" is made of diamonds and they're mining it to sell to DeBeers Co.

I won't just claim something is impossible when I'm not privy to objective information on the subject. I think that it makes complete sense for some alien civilization to live on a "rock" just outside our purview....especially if they're interested in our planet. All is assuming that one believes in aliens...which I'm not altogether sure I do lol

These CalTech nerds are on the case:

So I get the feeling that it's only a matter of time before we have confirmation of either a large planet or a planetoid cluster out there large enough to cause the various effects seen in the solar system.

a reply to: MrBuddy

I do not take the beliefs of civilizations that far pre-date ours lightly. Zecharia aside, many civilizations from India, China, South America, and Iraq all claim knowledge that not only do aliens exist, but they have visited regularly for thousands of years. Ancient people didn't have biases like we do. They had no agenda...like we do.

I started out as a true believer, not so much now, most of the ancient alien theorists are only in it to make a quick buck, there's no real evidence or proof other than a few wall paintings that could mean anything that an alien civilization existed along side early humans, I truly wish some proof existed. Also ancient people did have biases like religion and other things just like we do.

I would also mention that most of the world believes in UFO's or aliens.

Just because we believe something is real doesn't mean it is.

a reply to: MrBuddy

many civilizations from India, China, South America, and Iraq all claim knowledge that not only do aliens exist, but they have visited regularly for thousands of years. Ancient people didn't have biases like we do. They had no agenda...like we do.

No,

many people in today's times that are into alternative topics believe that the civilizations you mention claim knowledge of aliens.

actual academics of those ancient civilizations show a better understanding and a more detailed explanation of why they have concluded what they have.

ancient people had no agenda's?

I would also mention that most of the world believes in UFO's or aliens.

UFO's aren't a believing matter, its a fact that things seen in the skies can be unidentified, there is no belief involved.

Yes, many if not most believe in alien life somewhere out there.

I won't just claim something is impossible when I'm not privy to objective information on the subject.

The person you are replying to didn't say it was impossible either, just that they thought it had no chance of being a candidate for intelligent life.

You said

You're making an assumption based on how species on Earth live and survive and applying that to the Universe.

this is how we make discoveries.

we base our ideas on known things.

we formulate experiments to try and prove these ideas.

once we get enough data we can determine whether our assumptions have any weight or if we are completely off base using existing knowledge and a whole new thinking out of the box approach is required.

a reply to: Kurokage

Ok, I suppose that they had biases, but not in the way that current civilization does. Theirs was religious in nature but isn't it funny that almost all of the relevant ones always looked toward the stars or outright claimed aliens. The Aztecs believed in them. Ancient India had their Vimanas. Much has been made of Egypt and Orions Belt. Also, while Zecharia is a bit loony tunes, Sumer has it's own stories of aliens which are well known.
There must have been some reason that all of these civilizations claim connections to outer space and/or aliens. They just wouldn't come to that conclusion without some sort of evidence in my opinion.


While many researchers on the subject are in it for the money, that doesn't negate all of the relevant research done in this particular area. While I agree that just because most people believe in something doesn't make it true it's also true that all of those people aren't likely suffering from some mass delusion either so it must be something in the middle.


With all of the circumstantial evidence throughout history as well as the photographic documentation and videos in the last 50 years, we need only one picture or story to be true and that doesn't seem like such a stretch for me.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: The angel of light

Wait. You think that somehow we just happened to miss a planet or 12 within our inner solar system because they’re on a different orbital plane?

I guess they’re all in sync so they just happen to be hiding behind something too?

Personally I think there is a sun not just a planet out there that holds these objects in such long distance orbits. Why are these objects going so far out and still coming back?

But going back to the orbit: The Goblin's is similar in key ways to those of some other extremely distant bodies — particularly in an element called "longitude of perihelion." Basically, the elongated parts of their elliptical orbits are clustered in the same part of the sky, which is consistent with gravitational shepherding by Planet X. The existence of Planet X was first seriously proposed in 2014 by Sheppard and Trujillo, to potentially explain oddities in the orbits of 2012 VP113, Sedna and a few other trans-Neptunian objects.

www.livescience.com...

I guess you are one of those people who feel they have seen everything out there even though this is not what "they" say themselves.
Personally I think there is something more than a large planet pulling and holding all of these objects on their extreme long orbits.

But going back to the orbit: The Goblin's is similar in key ways to those of some other extremely distant bodies — particularly in an element called "longitude of perihelion." Basically, the elongated parts of their elliptical orbits are clustered in the same part of the sky, which is consistent with gravitational shepherding by Planet X. The existence of Planet X was first seriously proposed in 2014 by Sheppard and Trujillo, to potentially explain oddities in the orbits of 2012 VP113, Sedna and a few other trans-Neptunian objects.

www.livescience.com...

a reply to: oldcarpy

If a planet of ten times the size of ours is found at the distance scientists of Caltech and other Astronomy centers expect from their computations, long beyond the average radius distance of Uranus or Pluto that would be a discovery.

Now, if their discovery becomes a Giant planet that is closer to the sun in a non ecliptic orbit it would be outstanding, but possibly unlikely according with their calculations, but a planet of relatively modest size may be orbiting in some alternative plane without causing a major gravitational pullout over the planets we know.

Something of the size of Earth, Venus or Mars is considered in terms of relative sizes a very modest size planet by the way, and that is all what we need to be at not so far distance from the sun to have a possible ideal place to have life.

Pluto, Eris, Haumea and also another 2 dwarf planets found recently "snow white" and "Makemake" all have moons orbiting around them, so they are not so far from the size required to host life, their real problem is their distance from the sun, if we are thinking in organisms similar to the ones exist on our planet.

Please check:
www.space.com...

www.nytimes.com...

Now, Pluto became the last planet found for a while, it is no longer considered as it but a dwarf one, because it was not located where Astronomers were thinking it was logical to find it, on the plane of the ecliptic, so it became unknown only until 1930s, although the technology and science to detect it was already existing long time before.

Even a modest planet not as close as earth or mars to sun may have life, provided certain conditions of atmosphere exist. Scientist have showed apparently that the lowest possible temperature that an organism can tolerate to reach to live is -20 celsius degrees, but there are extremophiles here on earth that have incredible adaption skills to survive very close to it.

That limit by the way assume that the organism actually reach that temperature internally, not that can be in an environment at that level of cold isolated thermically by hair, skin, feathers or any other organic covering material.

Many creatures living on the poles here on earth are able to survive below that temperature thanks to the special isolating properties of their skins. -20 celsius is not even closer to the lowest temperatures registered on the Arctic, Siberia or the Antarctica ( in the Russian Antarctic Vostok station -89.2 celsius were registered on 1983).

The Eskimos and Laps have learnt the way to also survive on those environments using the skins of animals they hunt or have domesticated. Yakutsk in eastern Siberia have a permanent population that is able to survive winter at -81 celsius.

Please check:
www.smosh.com...

Now, Tardigrads are fascinating scientists for their incredible ability to survive at any environment, they are creating a real legend on adaptation, seem to be virtually indestructible as specie at least in any extreme condition exist on earth.

Please check:
phys.org...

lco.global...

www.bbc.com...

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light

The earth, mercury and Neptune have exactly the same plane of their orbits with respect to the sun, and they are located at extremely different distances of it, so where there is one it may be more and the remaining ones can be closer to the sun.

Any of the new dwarf planets discovered in the last years may suggest planes that have closer bodies to the sun that we don't know since they are not in the ecliptic where we expect to find them.

The Angel of Lightness

These planes aren't stacked like different floors of a building, if that's what you think. All orbital planes of circumsolar objects contain the sun in their plane [at one focus of the ellipse]. Therefore they ALL pass THROUGH the ecliptic plane defined by the known planets [and so can be easily observed], and over time would have detectable gravitational disturbances on known planets.

Astronomers knew from the time when the orbits of comets were determined [almost 300 years ago] that many objects travel in orbital planes far from the ecliptic.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: Illumimasontruth

Our solar system is probably full of simple life forms in multiple places.

A bit like the internet, then?

Nice analogy. Hard to argue with.

a reply to: JimOberg

Well, if so I am wondering why it took to them almost 220 years to find Pluto, a world that although considered dwarf has its own moons?

What would happen with something orbiting in any of those alternative planes perhaps in approximate opposition, let's assume the major part of the time in the other side of the sun with respect to us, if in addition it moves in synchronously manner with our earth's translation speed?

If the slope of it orbit with respect to the ecliptic is not so large orbiting in opposition that should appear invisible at least to optical instruments, used centuries ago.

I was not talking of course of comets moving at remarkable speed close to the sun.

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light
If the slope of it orbit with respect to the ecliptic is not so large orbiting in opposition that should appear invisible at least to optical instruments, used centuries ago.

No, we'd see it at some point, sneaking around the backside of the sun. Besides, it would likely throw everybody's orbit including our own orbit out of whack.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Well, Pluto was not known before 1930, Uranus and Neptune were not discovered until XIX century so there were only 5 planets really known by any large ancient civilization with astronomic records.

The magnitude of the gravitational pullout depends on mass but also on relative distances.

In addition the closer planets are to the sun the less weight the interplanetary gravitational pullout interacts between them to alter their orbits due to the dominant gravity of the star.

What is the pullout of the comets when they approach us?

The distance can be really short but their mass is small in comparison with ours.

If it is planet as large as the earth at permanently opposition the distance would be extremely large always, also its pullout would masked by the solar one in the middle.

Again it might be even farther than us from the sun lets say as it is Mars or a little more distant as the asteroids belt and with its smaller mass still having conditions for life provided that exist internal activity of some kind and atmosphere.

Now, suppose Not and we have to wait until the formal first observation of the IX planet, or get more information through exploratory missions to the new dwarf planets or others to be discovered circumnavigating the sun more or less at similar distances than Pluto or the Kuiper belt, but on other orbital plane, we don't know if even at such distance it may have surprises waiting for us.

Recently it was found that either Pluto with a size a little smaller than our moon and five satellites and its neighbor the tiny Haumea have both rings around, something that was observed only on giant planets before.

Please check:
blog.nationalgeographic.org...

www.newscientist.com...

Essential elements for the apparition of life as Methane, Ammonia and water are common elements found in many of the bodies orbiting on the Kuiper belt.

Please check:
www.astronoo.com...

space-facts.com...

The real constraint for apparition of life at such distance is lack of energy, absence of heat from the sun, but If there is an active nucleus in any other dwarf planet or in a moon of a large one it may exist a Van Allen belt protecting an atmosphere and so have moderate temperatures on its surface even not being so close like us to the sun, moreover moving tectonic plates may cause release of internal heat , increasing its temperature and releasing chemicals that promote conditions for life.

This is a factor that is many times underestimated, and it is making many scientists to have expectations over the possibility for life to exist on worlds like the moon Europe of Jupiter or the Moon Enceladus of Saturn, where water vapour and apparently possibly also liquid was detected by Galileo, Mariner and Cassini.

Please check:
www.independent.co.uk...

www.chemistryworld.com...

Finally, the largest of the dwarf planets until now discovered, even larger than Pluto, the enigmatic Eris apparently is already offering an outstanding surprise, that is promising on terms of probability for life, is making scientists to think that could sustain at such a distance liquid water on its surface due to release of internal heat.

Models of internal heating via radioactive decay suggest that Eris may be capable of sustaining an internal ocean of liquid water at the mantle-core boundary. These studies were conducted by Hauke Hussmann and colleagues from the Institute of Astronomy, Geophysics and Atmospheric Sciences (IAG) at the University of São Paulo.

Eris water lagoons or streams if they exist may also be really rich on ammonia and methane

Please check:

www.universetoday.com...

The Angel of Lightness

I used to be an imaginator too. Till I took a shot of reality to the knee

a reply to: Gothmog

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution." Albert Einstein

You surrendered too much fast, giving up your best choice.

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Kurokage

Is not the planet itself, but the recent finding of the existence of other planes of orbits different than the ecliptic around the sun what is important.

If the ecliptic has a lot of coplanar objects moving around the sun, some of them close to it and some not, in a similar way it may occur with any of the new planes that are being found, why necessarily there must be a single lonely object orbiting separated of any other ones?

The Angel of Lightness

This must have something to do with the way the Sun's gravity bands work, and it's effects on planet type objects just beyond it's more powerful sphere of influence. These other planets outside the ecliptic, if they had enough time, settle into an ecliptic orbit? Unless they are being kept from doing that because of other objects pulling them off that tendency to migrate to a more stable ring of gravity around the sun? Just thinking about it.

originally posted by: The angel of light
New dwarf planets have been discovered in orbits that are not coplanar with the orbits of the known planets,and scientists are convinced there is something larger beyond them, a so called planet IX, but alternatively it can be claimed that something else may be orbiting in the other way around closer to the sun on the same new orbital planes.

By whom? "Can be claimed" means nothing, and, in this case, makes no sense, as, regardless of their orbit, any planet or dwarf planet will affect the other planet's orbits, unless it's a massless object.

This open the possibility that large worlds orbiting closer around to our Star may also exist, remaining undetected, were Never found before by classical astronomy looking exhaustively and almost exclusively on the ecliptic plane, that was the one scientists know certainly has already multiple planets.

Do you know how they have found Pluto? By comparing photos. We have many photos that cover the whole sky, not just the ecliptic, so any comparison between two photos that show some object(s) in different locations would point to a planet or another moving (in comparison with the far away objects, the so called "fixed stars") object.

Pluto that is now considered as a dwarf planet do so.

And it was discovered in 1930, hardly a new finding.

a reply to: ArMaP

Well, with all respect I have repeated about three times on my posts that Pluto was found on 1930, so I am perfectly aware of that, and I specially insisted on that since somebody replied to me that any object crossing the ecliptic was very well known even 300 hundred years ago.

The fact is that Pluto of course not only crosses the ecliptic plane twice on its translation motion around the sun but even it is able to approach the sun closer than Neptune, but nevertheless it was not catalogued at all by astronomers of any country before the XX century.

Now coming back to you what you feel is No sense, I suggest please to you to review conic sections in any mathematics book, lets remind that Uranus take 84 terrestrial years to orbit the sun, Neptune 165 and Pluto 148, that gives an idea of what sizes of orbits we are talking about.

Anything at similar distance small enough in mass not orbiting on the ecliptic would affect surely other planets, but since orbits are not circular but elliptical it may have a perihelion shorter several times than its aphelion, like a look like comet orbit, making possible that such a world remains extremely long periods of times ( measured on our centuries) farther than those three known worlds almost lost on the emptiness but approaching the sun closer than any of them, as it actually happen between Neptune and Pluto.

Considered that Photography was invented long before 1930, to be precise more than a century before that date around 1826, it is clear that the technique you are mentioning surely is used to determine new objects at present but it looks pretty much insufficient to find new planets historically that are Not located on the ecliptic.

Pls Check:
When Photography was invented?

Pluto's unusual orbit

If the task to find those planets orbiting on alternative planes would be really easy since long time ago Eris might have been found even before Pluto or more closely to it on the time line, since it is larger than it, but it was unknown as another dwarf planet until few years ago.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

I know you said that about Pluto, I only find it strange that you talk about this as if it's something new and then talk about Pluto.

Also, as you were talking of "large worlds orbiting closer around to our Star" I was not expecting you were talking about dwarf planets on far away orbits.

This open the possibility that large worlds orbiting closer around to our Star may also exist, remaining undetected, were Never found before by classical astronomy looking exhaustively and almost exclusively on the ecliptic plane, that was the one scientists know certainly has already multiple planets.large worlds orbiting closer around to our Star

a reply to: The angel of light

"These distant objects are like breadcrumbs leading us to Planet X," study leader Scott Sheppard, of the Carnegie Institution for Science in Washington, D.C., said in a statement. [

www.space.com...

a reply to: ArMaP

Well, even the Giant Planet IX that is being hunted by Caltech scientists and from other research institutes around the world could be an object of such characteristics.

This new unknown world ten times the size of the earth could be remaining for even centuries on our time scale far beyond anything that goes around the sun, but when it approaches to it entering even closer than the other planets.

In that sense it should look in its perihelion as a visitant from nowhere that enters suddenly on our solar system, as it occurs with many comets, but of course they did it on shorter time.

Why we have no records of such a visitant? well who knows if it completes a periodic motion around the sun in 400 of our years or even in 1000?

Such a Giant planet may have also moons around and either the planet or its moons may have Van Allen belt and active cores that can generate and retain heat when that system remains far from the sun.

By the way let me correct a typo on my last reply Pluto has a year length in its periodic motion around the sun that is 248 years of ours, so planets moving centuries on the outer space extremely far from us are a reality. Haumea has a periodic movement around the sun of 284 of our years, Eris of 558 , Makemake of 309; Hence, to have a planet IX with a periodic orbit around the sun of 1000 years, or even more than that, would not be really unlikely.

Imagine that possibility: a visitant coming closer than Neptune, who knows if even closer than that to the sun, every 800, 1000 or 1500 years!

Would not be perhaps such an extraordinary phenomenon only seen by a civilization perhaps once at most the very tangible material support of the estrange myths or Legends of visitor Gods around the world, like the Chinese Dragon? Hermes Trismegisto in Egypt, the Sumerian Deity Nibiru or even the MesoAmerican Quetzalcoatl?

I am not sure if Erich Von Daniken is here in this forum but it would be interesting to know his insights of what we are discussing here.


Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness