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The Kinzhal Is Simply Shocking In Its Capabilities
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www.unz.com...
This, most likely based on the famed Iskander airframe, M=10+ capable, highly maneuverable, aero-ballistic missile with a range of 2000 kilometers, carried by MiG-31BMs, just rewrote the book on naval warfare. It made large surface fleets and combatants obsolete.
straightlinelogic.com...
The unmistakable conclusion: most US military spending is the welfare state with epaulets. It pays for weapons, bases, and personnel whose uselessness would be revealed within half an hour after a non-nuclear war with Russia began. We have no conventional defenses against Russia’s new weaponry.
A previous Kinzhal thread got one flag. www.abovetopsecret.com... ATS members seem not too bothered.
As mike says, these things overfly our air defenses and underfly our space defenses. In the case of an intercontinental ballistic missile launch you get about 20 minutes warning to do something about it. With one of these air launched boost-glide weapons, you would get about 5 minutes.
www.unz.com...
. . . no modern . . . air-defense system deployed today by any NATO fleet can intercept even a single missile with such characteristics.
Can the weapons experts give us a clear view of the capabilities of this missile and the effective defences against it.
It is an impressive weapons system but the problem still comes down to finding and targeting the naval vessels, also all radar guided missiles are
going to want to go for the biggest return on the radar, so there’s always that ole radar decoy trick were you have a towed vessel with a giant
radar reflector that makes too inviting of a target and the missile just blows through let’s say a big Mylar balloon with no harm to the fleet (best
case scenario of course). I think this is a good excuse to get a proper LAWS system up and running and fleet wide for defense. IIRC we used this
technique back during the Iran Iraq war when oil shipments were being harassed by ASMs.
a reply to: Kester
Oh, another wonder weapon that'll make surface ships obsolete.
But you've still got that same ol' problem of first finding them, not as easy as some would have you believe...oceans are big places. Then there's the additional issue of that bunch of ships will be shooting back, they also have defensive counter-measures that will come into play.
No doubt it's a very impressive weapon system, but no system is invincible, as you may be sure that equally smart guys and gals are busily thinking of ways to defeat it.
Oh, another wonder weapon that'll make surface ships obsolete.
But you've still got that same ol' problem of first finding them, not as easy as some would have you believe...oceans are big places. Then there's the additional issue of that bunch of ships will be shooting back, they also have defensive counter-measures that will come into play.
No doubt it's a very impressive weapon system, but no system is invincible, as you may be sure that equally smart guys and gals are busily thinking of ways to defeat it.
a reply to: seagull
Has anyone tested the balloon and the shooting back? They've allegedly tested the launching bit. I particularly abhor military folks being left ignorant and dumped in the snip. If I was going to set foot on a navy vessel I'd have to be properly informed first.
Has anyone tested the balloon and the shooting back? They've allegedly tested the launching bit. I particularly abhor military folks being left ignorant and dumped in the snip. If I was going to set foot on a navy vessel I'd have to be properly informed first.
High powered microwave weapon systems are on the horizon for naval ships. They don’t destroy missiles they just fry their electronics.
I agree with Seagull.
When someone designs the ultimate weapon. Someone else is designing the ultimate ultimate weapon.
I agree with Seagull.
When someone designs the ultimate weapon. Someone else is designing the ultimate ultimate weapon.
originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: seagull
Has anyone tested the balloon and the shooting back? They've allegedly tested the launching bit. I particularly abhor military folks being left ignorant and dumped in the snip. If I was going to set foot on a navy vessel I'd have to be properly informed first.
Why yes actually in my post I said that the method has been used with success....
www.upi.com...
There’s also many other chaff/decoy techniques that are much more sophisticated I was just stating a nice easy example of spoofing radar (or any guided) ASMs.
a reply to: BigDave-AR
Tested specifically against the Kinzhal?
Tested specifically against the Kinzhal?
When someone designs the ultimate weapon. Someone else is designing the ultimate ultimate weapon.
a reply to: Fallingdown
My experience of microwave weapons is they rarely perform as advertised. So many uncontrollable factors.
My experience of microwave weapons is they rarely perform as advertised. So many uncontrollable factors.
edit on 2 10 2018 by Kester because:
preform?
originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: BigDave-AR
Tested specifically against the Kinzhal?
When someone designs the ultimate weapon. Someone else is designing the ultimate ultimate weapon.
Did I say that? Your question didn’t ask specificly against the Kinzhal from the way I read it but keep in mind that no matter how advanced the weapon it’s only as good as it’s eyes for terminal guidance I.e. the seeker which isn’t going to be that much better so if you can spoof a Exocet there’s a damn good chance you can spoof the mighty Kinzhal and keep in mind this was one of the least high tech defenses.
a reply to: Kester
Didn't know you were an American diplomat in Cuba.
Real talk, this is just an iskander on a plane. Nothing revolutionary. Pershing 2 had a similarly agile RV back in the 80s. Hell, we even had the skybolt back in the 60s.
If only Russia hadn't blatantly and flagrantly violated the INF treaty, putting the world further in danger from it's violent, expeditionary death throes.
Didn't know you were an American diplomat in Cuba.
Real talk, this is just an iskander on a plane. Nothing revolutionary. Pershing 2 had a similarly agile RV back in the 80s. Hell, we even had the skybolt back in the 60s.
If only Russia hadn't blatantly and flagrantly violated the INF treaty, putting the world further in danger from it's violent, expeditionary death throes.
It's Wunderwaffe all right. Just doesn't have the "second strike" capability.
Staging is one issue. Getting the first one within 1200 miles of a US fleet is doable. The second one? much more difficult.
The US has oodles of inventory against which there isn't much that is a preventative.
It's like trying to kill a rattlesnake with a shovel. Sure you can do it; but can you do it with a single blow? Because after your first blow, it's the rattlesnake's turn.
Likewise. After this thing is used against the US Navy, it' the Navy's turn....
Staging is one issue. Getting the first one within 1200 miles of a US fleet is doable. The second one? much more difficult.
The US has oodles of inventory against which there isn't much that is a preventative.
It's like trying to kill a rattlesnake with a shovel. Sure you can do it; but can you do it with a single blow? Because after your first blow, it's the rattlesnake's turn.
Likewise. After this thing is used against the US Navy, it' the Navy's turn....
a reply to: Fallingdown
And how would the crew be shielded from the electromagnetic radiation emitted by such a powerful microwave weapon?
And how would the crew be shielded from the electromagnetic radiation emitted by such a powerful microwave weapon?
Hypersonic, and high supersonic weapons are considered "unstoppable" based on the fact that at the range a normal radar will see them, you'll have
less than 2 minutes to "see" them, lock on, and get interceptors in the air. The standard AEGIS engagement was known as "Shoot- Shoot- Look". They'd
fire two missiles, then wait to see if they need to fire more. With a high speed weapon at that range, if the missiles don't kill it, you're not
getting another chance.
Adding airborne sensors to the mix extends the range you can see them coming, but until now, those sensors have been extremely vulnerable. One of the biggest ship defense missions the F-35 will undertake is to tie into the AEGIS command net and act as an airborne radar. They'll have the ability to guide ship based weapons into incoming targets, and will be far less vulnerable than any previous carrier based platform in history.
They'll by no means render weapons like this useless, but a battle group with a flight of F-35s airborne will see their defenses become exponentially better, and will have a much better chance at stopping them.
Adding airborne sensors to the mix extends the range you can see them coming, but until now, those sensors have been extremely vulnerable. One of the biggest ship defense missions the F-35 will undertake is to tie into the AEGIS command net and act as an airborne radar. They'll have the ability to guide ship based weapons into incoming targets, and will be far less vulnerable than any previous carrier based platform in history.
They'll by no means render weapons like this useless, but a battle group with a flight of F-35s airborne will see their defenses become exponentially better, and will have a much better chance at stopping them.
@zaphod
"Adding airborne sensors to the mix extends the range you can see them coming, but until now, those sensors have been extremely vulnerable. One of the biggest ship defense missions the F-35 will undertake is to tie into the AEGIS command net and act as an airborne radar. They'll have the ability to guide ship based weapons into incoming targets, and will be far less vulnerable than any previous carrier based platform in history. "
We have intercepted coyote missiles that are supposedly based off the brahmos and klub missiles. The host radars on the SM-6 are able to track targets as well. So for example if one of these 300km missiles get within 200kms the SM-6 would be at 100kms. By the time one of the missiles start to descend or travel below the radar horizon to avoid getting tracked by the ship the SM-6 on its way can track the target itself. However the problem is missiles like kalibr based on their altitude flight ceiling and supposedly better long range low altitude cruise profile traveling at 1km/s this is estimated to get tracked a little over 30kms barely with enough of a reaction time which might force the usage of CIWS or lasers.
Although the F-35 can raise the altitude profile, sorry for my lack of understanding of this but how often do F-35s or aircrafts go on a flight to scout? is it like 24/7 coverage or what? one aircraft is limited to a 120 degree radar beam leaving a 240 degree sector open at low altitudes.
I want to add some insight. The only thing that makes the kinzhal different from a weapon like silver sparrow is that it maneuvers throughout every phase of its flight to throw off guidance systems. ballistic missiles like the silver sparrow only maneuver at the terminal phase.
The Zircon missiles adds 2 more additions that the kinzhal does not have besides maneuverability which is 1. This missile has a 30-40km flight ceiling which limits radar tracking in comparison to ballistic missiles. 2.
www.trud.ru...
The head of the rocket heats up, and a plasma cloud forms around. Missiles moving at such speeds are almost impossible to intercept: control systems have too little time to make decisions, and interceptor missiles are not able to catch up with Zircon and can only be used in oncoming courses. A plasma vortex, among other things, absorbs radio waves, and as a result, a rocket that has reached hypersound is covered, as it were, with an invisibility cloak: radars stop seeing it.
www.grc.nasa.gov...
For aircraft speeds which are much greater than the speed of sound, the aircraft is said to be
hypersonic. Typical speeds for hypersonic aircraft are greater than 3000 mph and Mach number
M greater than five, M > 5. We are going to define a high hypersonic regime at M > 10 to account for re-entry aerodynamics. The chief characteristic of hypersonic aerodynamics is that the
temperature of the flow is so great that the chemistry of the diatomic molecules of the
air must be considered. At low hypersonic speeds, the molecular bonds vibrate, which changes the magnitude of the forces generated by the air on the aircraft. At high hypersonic speeds, the molecules break apart producing an electrically charged plasma around the aircraft. Large variations in
air density and pressure occur because of shock waves, and expansions.
the magic of plasma reducing its RCS. Their plans of putting this on ships and subs suggest they have ideas of making it feasible to be used against other naval assets from 1000kms away. Although aircrafts can help I am not sure that a an/apg-81 would offer the same tracking capabilities or power in comparison to a an/spy radar for these kinds of targets.
"Adding airborne sensors to the mix extends the range you can see them coming, but until now, those sensors have been extremely vulnerable. One of the biggest ship defense missions the F-35 will undertake is to tie into the AEGIS command net and act as an airborne radar. They'll have the ability to guide ship based weapons into incoming targets, and will be far less vulnerable than any previous carrier based platform in history. "
We have intercepted coyote missiles that are supposedly based off the brahmos and klub missiles. The host radars on the SM-6 are able to track targets as well. So for example if one of these 300km missiles get within 200kms the SM-6 would be at 100kms. By the time one of the missiles start to descend or travel below the radar horizon to avoid getting tracked by the ship the SM-6 on its way can track the target itself. However the problem is missiles like kalibr based on their altitude flight ceiling and supposedly better long range low altitude cruise profile traveling at 1km/s this is estimated to get tracked a little over 30kms barely with enough of a reaction time which might force the usage of CIWS or lasers.
Although the F-35 can raise the altitude profile, sorry for my lack of understanding of this but how often do F-35s or aircrafts go on a flight to scout? is it like 24/7 coverage or what? one aircraft is limited to a 120 degree radar beam leaving a 240 degree sector open at low altitudes.
I want to add some insight. The only thing that makes the kinzhal different from a weapon like silver sparrow is that it maneuvers throughout every phase of its flight to throw off guidance systems. ballistic missiles like the silver sparrow only maneuver at the terminal phase.
The Zircon missiles adds 2 more additions that the kinzhal does not have besides maneuverability which is 1. This missile has a 30-40km flight ceiling which limits radar tracking in comparison to ballistic missiles. 2.
www.trud.ru...
The head of the rocket heats up, and a plasma cloud forms around. Missiles moving at such speeds are almost impossible to intercept: control systems have too little time to make decisions, and interceptor missiles are not able to catch up with Zircon and can only be used in oncoming courses. A plasma vortex, among other things, absorbs radio waves, and as a result, a rocket that has reached hypersound is covered, as it were, with an invisibility cloak: radars stop seeing it.
www.grc.nasa.gov...
For aircraft speeds which are much greater than the speed of sound, the aircraft is said to be
hypersonic. Typical speeds for hypersonic aircraft are greater than 3000 mph and Mach number
M greater than five, M > 5. We are going to define a high hypersonic regime at M > 10 to account for re-entry aerodynamics. The chief characteristic of hypersonic aerodynamics is that the
temperature of the flow is so great that the chemistry of the diatomic molecules of the
air must be considered. At low hypersonic speeds, the molecular bonds vibrate, which changes the magnitude of the forces generated by the air on the aircraft. At high hypersonic speeds, the molecules break apart producing an electrically charged plasma around the aircraft. Large variations in
air density and pressure occur because of shock waves, and expansions.
the magic of plasma reducing its RCS. Their plans of putting this on ships and subs suggest they have ideas of making it feasible to be used against other naval assets from 1000kms away. Although aircrafts can help I am not sure that a an/apg-81 would offer the same tracking capabilities or power in comparison to a an/spy radar for these kinds of targets.
edit on 5-9-2019 by panzerfeist1 because: (no reason given)
a reply to: panzerfeist1
The F-35 will be flown in the missile defense role whenever it needs to be. The AN/APG-81 isn't the only sensor at their disposal, and the aircraft is far more capable than you give it credit for. Increasing the altitude of a sensor changes everything in the anti missile role. A surface based radar can see out to maybe 250 miles, against a high flying target. A low altitude target has a much closer radar horizon. Now put multiple radar systems, capable of tying into each other at 40,000 feet, and even that low altitude missile is going to be seen much farther out. Add in the capability to steer a ship launched missile from that airborne radar and you suddenly have a much more lethal defense system.
Plasma may reduce the RCS, but it brings its own detection problems. It isn't going to suddenly make a missile invincible. It increases the challenge of stopping it, but is far from insurmountable. The reason that this missile is so hard to stop is that it's low and fast. That means there's very little reaction time, against a surface radar. Again, an airborne radar increases that time. And you're not going to launch a missile like this without it being seen.
The F-35 will be flown in the missile defense role whenever it needs to be. The AN/APG-81 isn't the only sensor at their disposal, and the aircraft is far more capable than you give it credit for. Increasing the altitude of a sensor changes everything in the anti missile role. A surface based radar can see out to maybe 250 miles, against a high flying target. A low altitude target has a much closer radar horizon. Now put multiple radar systems, capable of tying into each other at 40,000 feet, and even that low altitude missile is going to be seen much farther out. Add in the capability to steer a ship launched missile from that airborne radar and you suddenly have a much more lethal defense system.
Plasma may reduce the RCS, but it brings its own detection problems. It isn't going to suddenly make a missile invincible. It increases the challenge of stopping it, but is far from insurmountable. The reason that this missile is so hard to stop is that it's low and fast. That means there's very little reaction time, against a surface radar. Again, an airborne radar increases that time. And you're not going to launch a missile like this without it being seen.
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