Procedures are in place. And why aren't we following them, right or wrong..

It's been she said, he said, side 1arguing against side 2, even each side within and against themselves all month. Well, we've had ways, rules and procedures in place seemingly ignored.

I'm taking it as not a her, not him, not Democrat, Republican, Conservative or Liberal...even Independent issue. I'm not going pro or con, evidence or not. I'm not taking either side...but how hard is it to process all of the Supreme Court nomination-nonsense we've had to endure?

Is it not an issue (like all others) with a going forward agenda? Remove the party lines, remove who did or didn't do what, who said or didn't say or who's lying or not lying. Including witness testimony, F.B.I./Special Counsel, and all else hindering the process, and move forward.

Remove your personal opinions of this past few weeks. Remove your political party affiliation. Remove the "I believe that..." or "She-he's lying and did or didn't do"...whatever. Why have we lost the procedures in place and accepted methods of substantiating claims and whallowing in the muck of anger and infighting?

1. Accusation
2. Investigation
3. Substaniation (of claims)
4. Corroboration (or not)
5. Confirmation (of the "facts" or lack thereof)

Don't use the good or bad points of what you do or don't believe. It's not about us. Address if anything..our accepted, historical methodology above...and how it's now somehow unacceptablely incorrect. What part of the puzzle are we now not getting?

I think we're losing our way...

***Thank you member SAIKER***

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
I think we're losing our way...

Losing? How about lost.

I think you used the wrong verb tense.

ETA:

I'll add my response from another thread:

The truth is the left has utterly abandoned the rule of law, which is designed to protect ALL people, regardless of the circumstances.

In the present situation, this is how the entire ordeal would have been handled if we didn't have such lawless nutcases in congress and the MSM.

1) An accuser brings an allegation,
2) the committee addresses claims in closed session and confidentially, pursuing all necessary means of investigation, and
3) only after completion of such investigation, make the findings publicly known.

Then its up to the votes...and notwithstanding the outcome, NOTHING prevents further investigation, and if warranted, actual prosecution in a court of law.

THAT is due process. Not the circus we are witnessing.

Political theater to distract the sheeple from the issues that we should be looking at .
Namely that we are about to seat a SCOTUS that thinks freedom is a government given privilege. And that a sitting president can't break the law .
He isn't on our side . He is the swamp .
Oh well , carry on with the sheeple partisanship like the talking heads tell you too .

originally posted by: loam

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
I think we're losing our way...

Losing? How about lost.

I think you used the wrong verb tense.

ETA:

I add my response from another thread:

The truth is the left has utterly abandoned the rule of law, which is designed to protect ALL people, regardless of the circumstances.

In the present situation, this is how the entire ordeal would have been handled if we didn't have such lawless nutcases in congress and the MSM.

1) An accuser brings an allegation,
2) the committee addresses claims in closed session and confidentially, pursuing all necessary means of investigation, and
3) only after completion of such investigation, make the findings publicly known.

Then its up to the votes...and notwithstanding the outcome, NOTHING prevents further investigation, and if warranted, actual prosecution in a court of law.

THAT is due process. Not the circus we are witnessing.

You are right..and I'm changing my thread-title to more accurately reflect my thoughts. Thank you LOAM.

a reply to: TREESNAKE1111

In post-God America, freedom is a privilege granted by the Government.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

It was never about anything other than theatre and blocking Trump.

originally posted by: TREESNAKE1111
Political theater to distract the sheeple from the issues that we should be looking at .
Namely that we are about to seat a SCOTUS that thinks freedom is a government given privilege. And that a sitting president can't break the law .
He isn't on our side . He is the swamp .
Oh well , carry on with the sheeple partisanship like the talking heads tell you too .

Not me..but scary thought! Thanks..

Buy one.



Get the next one free.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

This is not a 'court' proceeding!!

There is a process and the question I shall ask as well is why has it not been followed. The order listed here in my opinion is incorrect:

1. Accusation 
2. Investigation 
3. Substaniation (of claims) 
4. Corroboration (or not) 
5. Confirmation 

You don't make an accusation, you file a complaint with the authorities who have jurisdiction. It is normal to do as soon as you can, I understand in certain situations this may not be possiable. But one should always file a compliant and before any accusations.

After a compliant is filed a proper investigation can be begin but the complaint must be filed.

Substanation is part of any investigation, not a seperate part so substanation just like corroboration comes from an investigations which comes from the formal complaint.

Confirmation is never part of the investigation either. It is not the job of any investigator to determine if someone committed a crime. The job of an investigator is to gather facts, physical evidence, and eyewitness testimony.

There are times based on all of the information gathered by investigators that a conclusion can be drawn of guilt or innocence but that question is always left for a jury or a Judge to decide.

We still come back to the number one in our little equation, that is that a formal complaint has to be filed. Accusations can be shouted all day and mean nothing. Why this individual does not file a formal complaint is very telling to me.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: mysterioustranger

This is not a 'court' proceeding!!

The U.S. Constitution extends beyond the courts.

Check it out sometime.

Read the Amendments too.

😎

a reply to: mysterioustranger

Great OP -- much needed and much appreciated. This isn't unknown territory. We do have proper protocols and procedures for addressing such allegations.

One failure of the process we've seen playing out is to consider BOTH may be telling the truth as they know it. Is Ford suffering false memories? Or implanted memories? Or mistaken identity? Or someone falsely claiming to be Kavanaugh?

Any plausible alternative explanation establishes reasonable doubt.

Instead, everything has been framed in absolutes... One is telling the truth and the other is therefore lying. No ifs, and or buts. Which then inevitably demands us to believe one or the other. Which leads to never ending arguments all based on feelings and opinions.

And Flake is right that this farce is tearing us apart.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: mysterioustranger

This is not a 'court' proceeding!!

Of course not...but in anything...isn't it accusation, then investigation, determination, corroboration etc? We barely got there this week.

In my life back to Eisenhower...it's never been "should or shouldn't we". Investage the damn thing...sit back, shut up...let the process proceed it's course....

originally posted by: DJMSN
There is a process and the question I shall ask as well is why has it not been followed. The order listed here in my opinion is incorrect:

1. Accusation 
2. Investigation 
3. Substaniation (of claims) 
4. Corroboration (or not) 
5. Confirmation 

You don't make an accusation, you file a complaint with the authorities who have jurisdiction. It is normal to do as soon as you can, I understand in certain situations this may not be possiable. But one should always file a compliant and before any accusations.

After a compliant is filed a proper investigation can be begin but the complaint must be filed.

Substanation is part of any investigation, not a seperate part so substanation just like corroboration comes from an investigations which comes from the formal complaint.

Confirmation is never part of the investigation either. It is not the job of any investigator to determine if someone committed a crime. The job of an investigator is to gather facts, physical evidence, and eyewitness testimony.

There are times based on all of the information gathered by investigators that a conclusion can be drawn of guilt or innocence but that question is always left for a jury or a Judge to decide.

We still come back to the number one in our little equation, that is that a formal complaint has to be filed. Accusations can be shouted all day and mean nothing. Why this individual does not file a formal complaint is very telling to me.

Thank you DJMSN...I don't know where we got sidetracked. Get accused of something?: Fine...let them investigate it, see if proven true or not...get charged or go free.

You don't pick apart each step of the process...let it follow it's course.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

The accusers need to at the very least make a formal complaint. Thus far, not a single accuser of Judge Kavanaugh has actually done that.

The only thing that has changed in the last 36 years is his potential appointment to SCOTUS. Several that oppose the appointment has stated "it's a lifetime appointment" and it is.

They need to know he already holds a life time appointment on the DC Circuit, which some say is second only to SCOTUS. It's going to be interesting where we go from here, if he is denied confirmation, do those same individuals go for impeachment ?

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: mysterioustranger

Great OP -- much needed and much appreciated. This isn't unknown territory. We do have proper protocols and procedures for addressing such allegations.

One failure of the process we've seen playing out is to consider BOTH may be telling the truth as they know it. Is Ford suffering false memories? Or implanted memories? Or mistaken identity? Or someone falsely claiming to be Kavanaugh?

Any plausible alternative explanation establishes reasonable doubt.

Instead, everything has been framed in absolutes... One is telling the truth and the other is therefore lying. No ifs, and or buts. Which then inevitably demands us to believe one or the other. Which leads to never ending arguments all based on feelings and opinions.

And Flake is right that this farce is tearing us apart.

Always great to hear from you. You always make sense. Nice and appreciated words..

I just don't get all this hammering down each point and non-point while getting to main issue!

No matter where you live...accused get investigated...facts or fallacies should unfold naturally. I never seen such bickering before the points and facts are revealed. What the hell happened to democracy itself....all things considered?

The prisons are filled with folks saying "But, Im innocent...I didn't do it. It wasn't me!" Geez. I get it. You may be, or may not be. But, I dont know. We have to trust the accusation and evidentuary process.

If we don't follow a straight line from accusations forward....then what happens to democracy? Thanks, B!

originally posted by: DJMSN
a reply to: mysterioustranger

The accusers need to at the very least make a formal complaint. Thus far, not a single accuser of Judge Kavanaugh has actually done that.

The only thing that has changed in the last 36 years is his potential appointment to SCOTUS. Several that oppose the appointment has stated "it's a lifetime appointment" and it is.

They need to know he already holds a life time appointment on the DC Circuit, which some say is second only to SCOTUS. It's going to be interesting where we go from here, if he is denied confirmation, do those same individuals go for impeachment ?

Excellent points. Right now? It's a free for all...and we havent got to the issue itself yet. And lifetime appointments? I'm pretty sure now...thats probably not a good thing.

I honestly think we are finally so close to anarchy it isn't funny. All our checks and balances, ways and means, personal accountability and due process is getting boot-heeled into the ground from the 1st stirrings of questionable actions.

We have a system. Let it flow it's course...! I protested in the '60's-70's...we wanted change. But we wanted it fair, fully disclosed and followed thru. The radicals wanted to blow things up* and a few did. But, that's not the way.

Let truth prevail...but you have to let it unfold....to it's natural conclusion based on the evidence.*

*I was a White Panther in 1969 from Ann Arbor, Mi, and got in some "difficulty" at the time passing out literature in high school. When one of our own Pun Plamundon went to prison for bombings...we found our true course opposite of his. Let freedom ring by letting it follow it's legal course and re-course.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

If we don't follow a straight line from accusations forward....then what happens to democracy?

It's scary to contemplate, eh?

I'm still trying to make sense of a few things as far as how this played out, but it the fact this hasn't been presented in a criminal or civil complaint -- with their attendant rules of evidence and procedure and such -- was easily manipulated for political agendas. The lack of hard facts has made for quick and easy speculations and basically just gossip.

And the dirty politicking has been on both sides.

Thanks, B!

Thank you!